Roe v Wade...For Men
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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03-09-2006 15:17
From: Reitsuki Kojima I agree with Kiamat and Kevn on this issue. Uggg... I feel dirty. Anyhow. Kiamat said part of it: I'm of the opinion, like said elsewhere, that abortion should be safe, legal, and *rare*, in general. I don't *like* abortion one bit, but that's another issue alltogether. But the fact is, quite simply: Men are told, if you don't want to suffer the effects of having a kid, don't have sex. Period. Or, well, I guess turn gay, but that's not really a viable option for most men (Unfortunatly...  ) Women are told, if you don't want to suffer the effects of having a kid, go get an abortion or put the kid up for adoption. Not having sex would help, but if you choose to, no problem, we'll fix it if you want. And if the man WANTS the kid but the woman doesnt, the woman's opinion trumps the man, every time. Even if abortions are discouraged, even if abortions are a Bad Thing(TM) and cause mental stress, the fact is, they have an option. An option that can, *legally*, be exercised at any point during pregnancy, even if the man wants the child and would be willing to take care of it on his own (I know a friend that that happened to) With that in mind, if the man is going to be legaly have his legal rights cut off at the proverbial knee, I don't see why his responsibility shouldn't follow. It's really just a very intimate form of taxation without representation, if you want to boil it down to legalities and strip all humanity out of the issue. I'm in complete agreement with you. I think men should be able to opt out of responsibility if they're not interested in being a parent but the woman chooses to have the child anyway. The only thing I don't understand is how anyone can argue for the opt-out if they're also a pro-lifer. That strikes me as extreme hypocricy. If a woman should always be forced to give birth then the father should always be forced to take responsibility. Period. (Of course I fully support abortion for any reason at any time.) As for the man wanting the child but the woman choosing abortion, I think that's as it should be since she's the one who actually has to carry it to term and give birth. Men don't deserve an equal say in that, but if they think the child should be aborted and it's not, then they should be able to get out of paying child support.
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Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
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03-09-2006 15:36
I know abortion isn't the subject of the thread, however one of the reasons I stated for abortion never being illegal is that men have no control after a pregnancy is initiated, yet full fiscal responsibility if that pregnancy is brought to term. As I stated previously, if a woman wants an abortion, but the man doesn't, he should pay to rent that space for the duration at the going rate and the woman will not be entitled to custody or visitation after birth. If a woman does want the child brought to term and the man doesn't, the man would thereby not be responsible financially after it was born (and also not permitted any type of custody or visitation).
To that end, this law is a move in the right direction to reduce the number of abortions and put children where they're wanted.
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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03-09-2006 15:44
Huh. I always thought of child-support payments as a way for a father to opt out of responsibility. Silly me.
Shared parenting does bring up another case in which I think a law like this might make sense. That's if the father is denied shared custody.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-09-2006 15:49
Question:
Do men that advocate that a Government has the right to tell women what to do with their bodies also think that a Government has the right to tell men what to do with their bodies?
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-09-2006 15:50
From: Ananda Sandgrain Huh. I always thought of child-support payments as a way for a father to opt out of responsibility. Silly me. ding ding ding |
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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03-09-2006 16:02
Thinking some more about what the real time-line on an actual case like this might work out:
1. Man finds out that a woman he's not currently married to is pregnant, or more likely just had a baby.
2. None of this would apply unless the woman presses a paternity suit in order to collect child support.
3. Man claims right to jointly raise the child and is denied.
Yeah, it's hard to make a case for why he should pay child support at that point. Of course, it's likely the counter-suit was frivolous but that's hard to prove, hmm?
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Jackson Callisto
Registered User
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 46
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03-09-2006 16:44
I think if there was something a little more detailed and not so open ended wouldnt be a bad thing. The problem with this suit is it leaves to many loose ends open. i do believe that yes there are some scandlous women who either trick men inot marrying them by having children i have also known women who have actually got pregnant intentionally so they could have fincial support (child support).. in them kind of cases i do think maybe the father should have an option.
from what i read maybe i misread but this lawsuit really doesnt have guideline to what would be just cause for someone to be given the option to opt-out
so far what i can vision if this was ever something that could have fightin a chance is this specially with teenage boys is one of few sernarios(sp)
men thinking they can now go around having unprotected sex knocking up whoever and can decide hey i didnt agree with her getting pregnant so i want to opt-out. kind like how some women treat the day after pill and abortion.. well i can just do this to solve my problems..
what i can also forsee is Guy A decided him and his long time gf decide maybe they want a baby they agree on it she gets pregnant.. lets say a month later things go sour they break up and she moves on.. now guy A decides the hell with her i want to opt-out and then denies he ever agree to have a child in the first place
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-09-2006 16:50
From: Jackson Callisto men thinking they can now go around having unprotected sex knocking up whoever and can decide hey i didnt agree with her getting pregnant so i want to opt-out. kind like how some women treat the day after pill and abortion.. well i can just do this to solve my problems.. . That's the point. From: Jackson Callisto what i can also forsee is Guy A decided him and his long time gf decide maybe they want a baby they agree on it she gets pregnant.. lets say a month later things go sour they break up and she moves on.. now guy A decides the hell with her i want to opt-out and then denies he ever agree to have a child in the first place As opposed to the woman being able to freely abort the child out of spite, you mean?
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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03-09-2006 17:54
Well they could always make it like a get out of jail free card and you only get one or two. After that you're paying no matter what.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-09-2006 17:55
From: Chip Midnight Well they could always make it like a get out of jail free card and you only get one or two. After that you're paying no matter what. Would you support extending that to non rape-incest-medical abortions?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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03-09-2006 18:04
From: Reitsuki Kojima Would you support extending that to non rape-incest-medical abortions? Yes, it certainly wouldn't be for rape/incest/medical abortions. It would be for cases where there was an unplanned pregnancy and the father wanted to abort but the mother wanted to keep the child. Unlike others I'm not a "I'm pro abortion but think it should never be used" type. An unborn child doesn't really have a life to lose before it reaches viability. I have no qualms with terminating pregnancy before that time for any reason whatsoever.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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03-09-2006 18:08
From: Chip Midnight Yes, it certainly wouldn't be for rape/incest/medical abortions. It would be for cases where there was an unplanned pregnancy and the father wanted to abort but the mother wanted to keep the child. Unlike others I'm not a "I'm pro abortion but think it should never be used" type. An unborn child doesn't really have a life to lose before it reaches viability. I have no qualms with terminating pregnancy before that time for any reason whatsoever. What I mean is, would you accept applying one or two "get out of jail free" cards to abortion (non medical etc, of course), as well as to paternal responsibility?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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03-09-2006 18:14
From: Reitsuki Kojima What I mean is, would you accept applying one or two "get out of jail free" cards to abortion (non medical etc, of course), as well as to paternal responsibility? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at exactly. The opt-out would be for cases where the mother chose not to abort against the father's wishes in which case he should be allowed to waive his parental responsibilities. If it was a case of rape or incest then it wouldn't apply. How else do you mean extending it?
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
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03-09-2006 19:02
From: Chip Midnight I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at exactly. The opt-out would be for cases where the mother chose not to abort against the father's wishes in which case he should be allowed to waive his parental responsibilities. If it was a case of rape or incest then it wouldn't apply. How else do you mean extending it? Trying to simplify it more... Under your proposal, the man gets, say, two strikes where he can avoid "paying the piper" as it were. How about the woman? Does she get two strikes before she has to pay the piper? Or can she go on being careless and keep getting abortions until the cows come home?
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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03-09-2006 19:04
From: Reitsuki Kojima Trying to simplify it more...
Under your proposal, the man gets, say, two strikes where he can avoid "paying the piper" as it were.
How about the woman? Does she get two strikes before she has to pay the piper? Or can she go on being careless and keep getting abortions until the cows come home? Well honestly I think both men and women should be able to keep getting abortions until the cows come home, but I was suggesting a compromise in response to the suggestion that it would make people more likely to be careless. Personally I think if you can afford the financial burden of a lot of abortions and the psychological damage, have as many as you bloody well please.
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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03-10-2006 11:48
From: Ananda Sandgrain Thinking some more about what the real time-line on an actual case like this might work out:
1. Man finds out that a woman he's not currently married to is pregnant, or more likely just had a baby.
2. None of this would apply unless the woman presses a paternity suit in order to collect child support.
3. Man claims right to jointly raise the child and is denied.
Yeah, it's hard to make a case for why he should pay child support at that point. Of course, it's likely the counter-suit was frivolous but that's hard to prove, hmm? The time-line is more like this: 1. She calls him to say she just found out she is pregnant. Under this new law, she must notify him asap. 2. She tells him her choice, if she chooses abortion he has no rights. 3. She chooses life, and asks him to sign the parenting papers. 4. He refuses to sign, thereby exercising his right to choose. 5. She has the child and either raises it or gives it up for adoption. I would think the government would be responsible to assist in childcare/health-care issues. 6. He gets old and the grown child refuses to care for him. 7. The grown child works, paying taxes and Social security to support kids in that same position. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-10-2006 12:07
From: Kevn Klein 4. He refuses to sign, thereby exercising his right to choose. And this is where you prove to me that you don't care about life AFTER birth. thank you. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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03-10-2006 12:11
From: Kendra Bancroft And this is where you prove to me that you don't care about life AFTER birth.
thank you. Actually it's before birth, right after she finds out she is pregnant. According to you it's not a baby. |
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
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03-10-2006 12:13
From: Kevn Klein Actually it's before birth, right after she finds out she is pregnant. According to you it's not a baby. 
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-10-2006 12:18
From: Kevn Klein Actually it's before birth, right after she finds out she is pregnant. According to you it's not a baby. You do realize there's lots of responsabilities for a father AFTER the birth right? What do you think he's opting out of anyways? If the woman chooses abortion --it's a non issue because their will be no child to support. If the woman chooses to have the child -- then the father is in fact opting out of his responsabilities. |
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Sara Sullivan
Registered User
Join date: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 211
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If you play You pay
03-10-2006 12:19
I cant even THINK of the number of times a BF just didnt WANT to use a rubber, I DO believe that guys should have a say but ultimately who decides who pays and who doesnt, I think that if a Man doesnt want to be responsible for a baby, then stop havinf sex and
well go buy a sheep
my 2 cents,
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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03-10-2006 12:19
Nahhh, I think I'll stick with just one law change at a time.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-10-2006 12:21
From: Kevn Klein The time-line is more like this:
1. She calls him to say she just found out she is pregnant. Under this new law, she must notify him asap.
2. She tells him her choice, if she chooses abortion he has no rights.
3. She chooses life, and asks him to sign the parenting papers.
4. He refuses to sign, thereby exercising his right to choose.
5. She has the child and either raises it or gives it up for adoption. I would think the government would be responsible to assist in childcare/health-care issues.
6. He gets old and the grown child refuses to care for him.
7. The grown child works, paying taxes and Social security to support kids in that same position. 8. And the cat's in the cradle with a silver spoon. 9. Little Boy Blue and the man in the moon. 10. When ya comin' home, son. 11. I don't know when but we'll get together then, Dad. 12. Ya know we'll have a good time then. |
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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03-10-2006 12:22
From: Kendra Bancroft 8. And the cat's in the cradle with a silver spoon.
9. Little Boy Blue and the man in the moon.
10. When ya comin' home, son.
11. I don't know when but we'll get together then, Dad.
12. Ya know we'll have a good time then. Brilliant! Time for a Guinness. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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03-10-2006 12:26
From: Kendra Bancroft You do realize there's lots of responsabilities for a father AFTER the birth right?
What do you think he's opting out of anyways?
If the woman chooses abortion --it's a non issue because their will be no child to support.
If the woman chooses to have the child -- then the father is in fact opting out of his responsabilities. The whole point is both genders should have reproductive freedom. Neither should be forced, by law, to become a parent against their will. So, before there is an actual life, each must choose. According to you there is no life at that stage. We can't assume the blob of cells will become a child. It's only a potential life. If the woman chooses to become a parent, that is her choice, and shouldn't require him to make the same choice. |
