And your yellow ribbons still aren't enough

Now they are taken by Americans, and incarcerated in far away Cuba with no trial, no end date for their sentence, and no contact with their families. In clear contravention of the Geneva Convention (Who cares?). Subjected to torture and psychological abuse and humiliation to extract "information" they deny having. Just like the old days. Oh, sorry - forgot. This is OK and necessary, because we are the "good guys". Like Saddam would have said anything different.

Do you have a link on this? You are probably right, but I thought that was Gaddafi, the Libyan leader. Maybe they both did it.

In view of the massive US-funded military might arrayed against them by the power which has taken, and settled, their land by force, I prefer to think of such Palestinian groups as "freedom fighters". Even though I don't approve of the desperate measures they have been forced to by their impotence and lack of weaponry. Not a single military aircraft to defend their helpless people. Shall I list Israel's forces? Including it's un-inspected un-admitted nuclear arsenal, probably bigger than the UK's?
Another triumph by the US taxpayer.

Still, Yahweh said they could have it, didn't He ? Its all in the Book, so bow down. Know what the Book says comes next, and soon? You're going to enjoy this............

Sorry, this heat is getting me a bit p*ssed off.

That was at the end when France pulled out. Before hand it was about the French and every one with a brain should know that. Then the idea changed but that still didn't change the harts.

I think maybe that the sort people who would have been opposed to Vietnamese deaths in that war are the same ones opposed to Iraqi deaths in this one.

And really would be the one opposed to the war early.

There are a large number of people whose concerns are basically "closer to home"

It will take American deaths to change their support for the war. The same as it did in Vietnam.

I really hope some alternative solution is found to End the war.

It ending becuase of pressure from protests becuase of American Casulties would be a very sad thing.

*************
And in response to Lupo - Vietnam was already Independant politically by the time the US was involved , France left in 1958 I believe after they couldnt maintain control. We were offically helping the South Vietnamese.

We were also fighting Communism , becuase of the Domino theory - Like the war in Korea. I think people understood that much anyway.

We were also "attacked" they said) a ship was damaged in the Gulf Of Tonkin.

I think though in support of you saying people know why were in Iraq more - becuase its true - people know about Iraq , its been in the Spotlight since they invated Kuwait. Unlike people "not even knowing where Vietnam is" .. Everyone knows who Saddam Hussain is and a lot of peopel despised him and his regime.

Also there is a connection between Al Queda and Iraq in people's minds - becuase of Fundamentalist Islam. And Fundamentalist Islam = Terroritst = attacked and hate us.

First we take people who are “thought” to be tarist, in the old day they would take a hot chick and rape her and feed her to lions. Red Cross has gone to Cuba base and said they are living very well. Many of the people in Cuba the US has tried to send home, the problem is there countries have not wanted them, so were should we send them??



Well the only one I can find in 5 sec is the White House would that do?? I can also tell you I remember seeing him in a news from his country speaking English starting it and we played it on Cable news here in the USA.



I would agree with this to a point. Tarist are tarist and should not be excepted. I feel Ireland should be free of UK control, but I think all the tarist of the Ireland Freedom Fighters should be put in jail for life.



I don’t care what you bible tells you. I don’t care what your God tells you. But then again I think you and I are agreeing on this one.


Same here!!!!!!!!!!!!11

True. And really strange. The U.S. originally backed Saddam because he was a secularist who was fighting the fundamentalists in Iran. He actively persecuted Islamic clerics in his own country (along with Kurds and anybody else who got in his path).

Trying to connect Hussein with fundamentalist extremists is something like trying to connect Mother Theresa with Idi Amin. They're both.... ummm... human! Aha! And they lived in the same time period! That clinches it! The Vatican orchestrated genocide in Uganda!

This statement conflicted with my memory from the Course I took on the Vietnam war in College so I looked it up.


**************************************************
*1954*

Eisenhower Cites "Domino Theory" Regarding Southeast Asia: Responding to the defeat of the French by the Vietminh at Dienbienphu, President Eisenhower outlines the Domino Theory: "You have a row of dominoes set up. You knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is the certainty that it will go over very quickly."

French Defeated at Dien Bien Phu


Geneva Convention Agreements Announced: Vietminh General Ta Quang Buu and French General Henri Delteil sign the Agreement on the Cessation of Hostilities in Vietnam. As part of the agreement, a provisional demarcation line is drawn at the 17th parallel which will divide Vietnam until nationwide elections are held in 1956. The United States does not accept the agreement, neither does the government of Bao Dai.

*1955*

Diem Rejects Conditions of Geneva Accords, Refuses to Participate in Nationwide Elections

Diem Becomes President of Republic of Vietnam: Diem defeats Bao Dai in rigged election and proclaims himself President of Republic of Vietnam.

*1956*

French Leave Vietnam

US Training South Vietnamese: The US Military Assistance Advisor Group (MAAG) assumes responsibility, from French, for training South Vietnamese forces.

*1959*

US Servicemen Killed in Guerilla Attack: Major Dale R. Buis and Master Sargeant Chester M. Ovnand become the first Americans to die in the Vietnam War when guerillas strike at Bienhoa

*1964*
Gulf of Tonkin Incident: On August 2, three North Vietnamese PT boats allegedly fire torpedoes at the USS Maddox, a destroyer located in the international waters of the Tonkin Gulf, some thirty miles off the coast of North Vietnam. The attack comes after six months of covert US and South Vietnamese naval operations. A second, even more highly disputed attack, is alleged to have taken place on August 4.

Gulf of Tonkin Resolution: The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution is approved by Congress on August 7 and authorizes President Lyndon Johnson to "take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression."

*1965*

Operation "Rolling Thunder" Deployed: Sustained American bombing raids of North Vietnam, dubbed Operation Rolling Thunder, begin in February. The nearly continuous air raids would go on for three years.

Marines Arrive at Danang: The first American combat troops, the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, arrive in Vietnam to defend the US airfield at Danang. Scattered Vietcong gunfire is reported, but no Marines are injured.
******************************************************

-- while there was a sense in the US military and the government that the US could Suceed where the French couldnt. We never had toops helping the French. Our Advisors came in to help in 1956 when the French left. The First US servicement were Killed in 1959. But beyond a limited number of Advisors our Troops didnt begin fighting in Vietnam until 1965.

The Domino THeory statement about Communism predates all of that it was made in 1954.

Probe: Oil funds paid for bombers
NEW YORK -- Saddam Hussein diverted money from the U.N. oil-for-food program to pay millions of dollars to families of Palestinian suicide bombers who carried out attacks on Israel, say congressional investigators who uncovered evidence of the money trail.
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/middleeastreports/s_273762.html

Salaries For Suicide Bombers
(CBS) Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has raised the amount offered to relatives of suicide bombers from $10,000 per family to $25,000, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Wednesday.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/world/main505316.shtml

Palestinians get Saddam funds
Saddam Hussein has paid out thousands of dollars to families of Palestinians killed in fighting with Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm

Stop that Lupo, Saddam would never help terrorists...

Yeah, one guy stealing money from his populace funds terrorists so killing thousands of innocent civilians in response makes perfect sense to me. 100,000 eyes for an eye? Brilliant.

Would that include Nelson Mandela, Lupo? He was definitely a terrorist once, and if I take you seriously, you think he should still be in prison "for life".

One day a terrorist, another day a freedom fighter, another day a world-respected statesman. Doesn't this need a bit of thought ?

There is no real dispute that Saddam was a murdering thug. But it was pretty clear that this was what he was when the US selected him, supported him, helped him into power, funded him, armed him with weaponry including poison gas, and suggested he go attack Iran.

Whose fault is it that he was persecuting the Iraqi people?

Saddam and the Taliban were both created by the US for devious and dishonorable purposes. Bad acts sometimes come back to bite you.

hahahaha thanks for that Kendra!

The Taliban were a faction of the Mujahideen. The Mujahideen was funded to fight the Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the 1980s during the cold war. Looking back in the past its easy to play arm chair general/politician, but I will say that it probably would have been better to let Afghanistan be ruled by the Soviets as bad as that sounds. I'd almost say it was a lose/lose situation for the US. Its misleading to say we created them, they were already there, a part of Afghanistan. Sure we funded them, but funding or no funding, their evils (such as the treatment of women) would have taken place reguardless (except maybe if the Soviets defeated them). Who knows?

As far as Saddam goes, his rise to power in Iraq was his doing. We didnt create that. Sure we helped fund him against Iran in the 80's (after he was already in power). It was the lesser of 2 evils (unfortunately two huge evils). You remember our relationship with Iran wasnt so peachy back then? (read hostages) Another lose/lose situation in the end.

So Saddam and the Taliban both were their own creations not ours. Each had their own sources of wealth/power. Saddam from seizing power and controlling some key business'/resources. The Taliban from various places such as Osama's personal wealth. Unfortunately we did provide them with some eqiupment and probably some training via the CIA. Its very false to say we created or even gave them their power IMO.

Well, widows and orphans of terrorists, at any rate. And we all know widows and orphans are just terrorists waiting to happen. Let's bulldoze their homes, maybe that'll make them more amiable.

Yes and no. Winners writes history. Our Founding fathers would have all hung if they had lost. If you or I did the same thing today against the US we would go to jail. If you kill none military people for a military action with the express purpose to kill the none military person then yes you belong in jail for life (if you are at war and a shoot goes wide or a bomb drops bad or what ever and you didn’t mean it then that is ok to a degree) So what do I think of him?? I have to say I know little about him and there for can not speak about it, but in general if he was bombing busses and markets killing kids and innocent bystanders with no regard then he should rote in jail.

The USA CIA is the worst enemy of the USA. Look at who they supported.
That drug guy we sent troops in after in Central America the one that hid in a church. (Sorry bad with names)
Saddam Hussein
Osama bin Laden
Most of Osama’s higher up people.

USA CIA needs to get there big fat noses out of the world problems. All they do is make more problems for us 10 years later.

Not quite. Hussein was given CIA training and was encouraged (if not directly aided) in his assasination of the former leader.

From the BBC news site ..

For years he was the power behind the ailing figure of the president, Ahmed Hassan Bakr. In 1979, Saddam achieved his ambition of becoming head of state.

From www.famoustexans.com

About George HW bush' career history -

Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director (1976-1977);


Kinda interesting cooincidences

0.o

I thought when Saddam took power it was because the current leader (Bakr?) resigned due to 'health' issues; he was not assassinated for Saddam to gain the leadership position to the best of my knowledge. Also Saddam had a LONG and brutal history well before he took power. I know its hard for people to accept the fact that Saddam was a monster long, long ago because it doesnt fit into their (and Im not talking about Chip) conspiracy (nWo) theories about a US created monster.

I beleive Saddam was a political activist. I also beleive in the terms of Iraq politics (and the Middle Eastern politics in general) at the time, Politics was kind of like organized crime.

He was a thug for the party. And I think that I read he had personally killed people in his job working his way up.

So what Chip is saying and what Chris is saying dont necessarily conflict.

Lets see - theres a political system thats run liek organized crime.

Theres this educated (college in Egypt) THUG in Iraq who seems like he is ambitous. The CIA wants a stable Iraq they can have influence in.

Thus Saddam is an ideal CIA choice.

True for the most part. However its different when people leave out alot of these details and paint a picture like 'we' created a monster and put him in power. My point is he ALREADY was one and earned his own way up the ranks long before he ever met with anyone from the CIA.

Let's see... Bay of Pigs, comically inept plots to kill Castro, funding the Mujahadin, backing the Shah of Iran, supporting Saddam, running drugs to fund death squads in Central America...

They're called the Central WHAT Agency?

yeah quite a good point

however "intelligence" maybe only sounds like "intelligent"

since they have different meanings in this context.


of course the list is MUCH longer then the one you gave.

Contacts with warlords in Laos and Cambodia (even assistance in drug trafficing)

Operating outside their charter to get information INSIDE the US ..

"Failing" to notice/or alert of espionage activities by the Isrealis and Chinese ,

luckily for them - like all of these things - evidence is sketchy at best.

The assassination attempt was botched. Here's an account from UPI that was printed in 2003... http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/saddam.htm