And your yellow ribbons still aren't enough

Can you see that soon after you would have to find a similar button which would eliminate all of the Chinese?

Interesting. My guess is you don't know enough different kinds of people. I have plenty of stories about these ribbons raising awareness. Plenty of personal conversations with others. Of course, I work and live in a majority un-educated area of the city.

Are you opposed to Gay Pride parades? Or Black History Month public events?

I'm curious because I am trying to honestly understand where your thoughts and ideas are.

Ellie, did you read my post earlier? We aren't the ones doing this to their children, they are.

I know that there have been many of times that food/money was tight for me and my family. *I am soooo glad those days are over* Regardless, my kids were the ones to get fed first. Even to this day as we sit down to dinner, I make sure they get their food first.

I would never keep food from my children, even if I was starving. I wouldn't put my child in a car with explosives and push it out into the path of oncoming tankards. I wouldn't give my 10 year old a gun and have them fighting on the streets.

Now that brings a tear to my eye.

(my emphasis)

Jeepers, David...

I am so sorry you suffered such a dreadful experience, followed by the system failing you so badly, and that I accidentally touched such a raw nerve.

But you could perhaps have reacted differently on a political scale. Surely you are giving further evidence of a very sick society, hardly one which should be forcing its culture and principles on others at the point of a gun?

And if your culture has embittered you, and put such hatred in your heart that you talk of the "button", then surely you and others like you are a sick fruit which are dangerous to the world ?

There are things about the Muslim religion which I strongly dislike - true also about Judaism, Christianity - indeed most of them. But the great mass of muslims are ordinary people, trying to live quietly, earn for their families, show concern for those around them. It is not their fault what religion they grew up in, and it has many good aspects too, or (like the others) it wouldn't have survived.

If we judge the fitness of the masses to live, on the basis of the actions of their extremists, or even the humanity of their leaders, then wouldn't the population of the US be high up in the list for the "button"? And we can all see how ludicrous and evil that would be as a viewpoint.

Is it surprising that so many people round the world don't want to adopt what you so rightly call "our greedy, vulgar culture" ? If you see it like that, it must look to them like some sort of obscenity. So why kill them if they resist, inside their own country ?

Ah, the Final Solution to the Muslim Question. Where have I heard this before?



Ooooookay. I think someone's been watching too many Charles Bronson movies.

There is no evidence that these parents ever kept food from their children, Blaize. I am appalled that you have the temerity to suggest it. What do you think they are ? - less than animals ?

Most of the children did not directly starve, I understand. Very poor nutrition weakened their immune systems. Thus they were easier prey for waterborn contamination due to the Iraqis being prevented from rebuilding, or operating their water purification plants which we had destroyed. Then they died because sanctions had drastically reduced the availability of medicines, and the lack of food and clean water to rebuild their weakened bodies.

By accident, there was a UN report on the social performance, health care, food supplies etc in Iraq. Taken by independent inspectors on site just before the invasion of Kuwait. This was a middle-east-wide comparison. It makes astonishing reading. Iraq was approaching western standards in water supply, sewage control, health care etc. It was way ahead of all the others except US-mega-funded Israel. We bombed them back into the dark ages. They had already left such conditions well behind through their own efforts.

If only more people had read this report. Shall I look to see if I can find the link ?

As for your comments about explosives, and the implication these people emn mass care less for there children than we do, I am afraid you are another victim of the most powerful brain-washing and media-management systems since the world began. People with such attitudes are dangerous to the safety of the world, in my opinion.

You think these people are in general morally inferior to yourself? Makes me think of the old racist attitudes we are trying to leave behind.

You are the one that is suggesting that we are starving them because of the sanctions. You were the one that said how awful and horrendous it is for these children to be dying. I was pointing out my point of view.

Inferior, not hardly. I will say I take extreme offense at your attempt to call me a racist. Anyone that knows me, knows better.

As for my comments on the explosives, I do not think my nephew is trying to brain wash me TYVM. This was directly HIS account when the HE told me from his FIRST HAND experience in their country. He is the guy that sits at the gun on top of the tank and has to make the decision to fire or not. Oh yeah thats brain washing. I will believe his account of this before I would EVER believe the media's tug-at your-heart-strings-so-we-can-increase-our-ratings reports. *rolls eyes*

Well in a way... yes I am.

I guess it all boils down to 'me' - I see everyone going 'look at me' 'look at who I am' 'look at what I do' - and I don't feel the need to say the same. I am what I am. People don't like it, they can deal with it, I have no problems with who/what I am. Big furry purple multisexual muppets do whatever they like. I don't let other peoples perceptions of race, sex, roles, etc., get in the way of who I am, who I'm friends with, who I have sex with, or who I love.

I don't see the 'in your face' attitude some people have as a way of constructively solving anything. All it does is make the other group resent them more.

Just knowing that everyone is different and revelling in that wonderful fact is what life is about. (to me anyways.)

Well, no, I don't; the Chinese aren't into fanaticism and they are usually better at solving problems than creating them. But in any case the button is a literary device, if you will. I was really thinking about what Federico Garcia Lorca had to say about easy solutions to complex problems, ie there really never are any.

You are really a piece of work. You preach tolerance for Iraquis and then you call me a "sick fruit". I don't go making a habit of talking about my sexual orientation, but then it's nothing I feel I have to answer for, either, especially in this forum. Homophobia is a little odd coming from one who is supposedly so tolerant to others.

Hehe, I had no idea my little joking rant would strike so many nerves. How does my awareness translate into research money exactly? Wouldn't it be more effective to just give your dollar directly to those causes? Thanks for the reminders of the color code though. I never know what color represents what, and the text on them is much too small to read without binoculars which are dangerous to use while driving.

Noooooo, not the hair! The other part sounds fun though

Please, Blayze. Don't twist my words because we disagree with each other. I did no such thing. I said that the viewpoint you appeared to propos reminded me of certain aspects of racism. It really isn't the same thing, nor was it intended to be.

And it began with a question, Blayze.
"You think these people are in general morally inferior to yourself?"
You seemed to have implied it, but you could, and can, easily reply "no".

Please, Blayze. Don't twist my words because we disagree with each other. I did no such thing. I said that the viewpoint you appeared to propose reminded me of certain aspects of racism. It really isn't the same thing, nor was it intended to be.

And it began with a question, Blayze.
"You think these people are in general morally inferior to yourself?"
You seemed to have implied it, but you could, and can, easily reply "no".

I can respect this Camille!

Fuck the Bush administration!

You are teasing, right? Just because that word has another meaning. Nothing could have been further from my mind.

Anyway, it was a question, not a statement. I meant that our cultures grow us, like fruit on a tree, and that yours seems to have grown you full of the hatred you express, and maybe that you even seem to half-recognise this. That your bad experiences in a culture which you yourself despise have caused you to grow this way. Happens to us all in different directions.

Yes, the word "sick" has elements I did not intend, and I apologise and withdraw it, David.

I meant "unwell", "unfortunate", perhaps a little damaged. You surely aren't happy to find such hatred in your heart, are you? However justified it may seem ?

I thought you just confessed contemplating pressing a button to kill millions of innocents on the basis of their religion? Is the word truly SO harsh ?

Well, if a person were aware (or made aware) of a cause, an issue, an organization, etc. Then maybe they *would* donate money to the charities that do fund research, help, etc.



Sure. But a lot of the ribbons you see *do* come from organizations that use the money for research, help, etc. Or they are sold by individuals who donate much or all of the sales *to* the various organizations.

As a consumer, I suppose it is also good to make sure you educate yourself on just *who* you are buying your products from. The money I spent on my various magnets all went to organzations helping the cause.

Killing all Muslims would be killing 1/6 th of the world population.

This would be more then every war that has ever existed.

Though later recanted as a literary device - it is most absolutely certain that without the cooperation of Muslim's there will never be peace in the Middle East.

I assumed Ellie meant Fruitcake rather then Fruit. Considering the genocide comment that she was responding to.

You are smarter than the average bear

great...
now i want to go steal lunchbaskets...

Well the evidence shows that we did have plenty of indications beforehand and that the FBI had taken notice of some of the men in the flight schools potentially being terrorists, but the communication systems weren't "streamlined", did we do it. I hope not but there seems to be eyewitness and survivor accounts supporting both sides (post crash explosions on other floors etc..).



I believ the estimate going in to war was around 160,000 as I recall including the mass grave of the unfortunate people he has gassed.




That would be pure speculation and who is to say he would not have had an epiphony and started being a nice guy, of course he could have become maniacally homicidal but there really is no way of ever knowing.




Well it would be nice if that were based on any kind of fact, but here are some more official estimates from the U.N.

Number of Iraqi soldiers killed during the first Gulf War: 100,000 - 120,000
Civilian deaths in 1991 Gulf War: 42,000 - 86,000

UN estimate of civilian casualties in current war: 500,000

Number of Iraqi children who have already died as a result of U.S. sanctions: 500,000
Number under 5 who may die of malnutrition if there is a war: 1 to 2 million

Number of UN staff in Iraq currently involved in food distribution: 1,000
Number of UN staff evacuated for the war: 1,000
Number of Iraqis dependent on UN food distribution program: 16 million


This number does not count the thousands of Iraqi's slaughtered after the first Gulf War when they started to fight and rise up, we went home leaving them to the wolves frankly, that blood too is on the hands of the U.S. because we prompted them to help and fight back and when they did we packed up and left them to be slaughtered. I imagine this is one more convenient thing most of our people have forgotten as well.

This from the CBO (Congressional Budget Office)
Initial deployment of troops: $9 billion to $13 billion
Conducting the war: $6 billion to $9 billion per month
Returning forces to US: $5 billion to $7 billion
Temporary occupation of Iraq: $1 billion to $4 billion per month



Hey, I'd love to live in a fuzzy world where I believed everything we did was for the good of our fellow man, but that is simply not the case. History is the greatest of teachers for those willing to listen.

I would like to ask then WHY we sat on our asses and practically ignored MILLIONS being slaughtered in Africa and did nothing to help save them. Are Iraqi's that much more important? Are we really saving them? The insurgent numbers grow daily with every new civilian killing.

We could also talk about depleted Uranium in a high number of the rounds we use and how from the first Gulf war we radiated half their country with its use and how the cancer rates among children and adults skyrocketed after the war, now we've dumped untold tons more on them. Please feel free to enlighten yourself on the topic:

http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/IPesic/ResearchPaper.htm

Most of the research comes from the Federation of American Scientists.


In closing I just want to urge people to wake up.. we are far from anyones saving grace, we can't even save ourselves.

No matter how you look at it, pre-emptive war IS terrorism.

http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/failedtransition/transition.pdf

I would Like to re-iterate as well that Saddam did not attack us, Bin Ladin / Al Quada did!!

You said, Chip, that you had no problem if people wanted to tie yellow ribbons around their antennas or whatnot, that your problem is strictly with these stickers...

Well, maybe I'm completely different from the rest of the world, and it's extraordinarily strange that I don't happen to have yellow ribbon just sitting around my house. So, I'd be ok in your opinion if I ran out and bought a spool of yellow ribbon, and tied a bit on my antenna, but it's not ok in your opinion to just buy a yellow ribbon sticker?

There's tons of different companies that manufacture yellow ribbon (actual ribbon) and there's tons of companies that manufacture yellow ribbon stickers. Sticker? A lot less likely to need replaced constantly. Ribbon? Torn in weather, replaced frequently if you don't want a dingy scrap of fabric hanging off your antenna.

I have family serving in Iraq. I have family - family very precious to me - serving. Family who came under fire and watched the guys in the two humvees ahead of his own blown to bits one day. The proceeds from my little yellow ribbon sticker didn't go to support him, or any of our troops. Neither would the proceeds from buying you know, actual yellow ribbon. But, with a loved one who was one humvee away from being blown away, I'll keep my yellow ribbon sticker on my car, thanks. I'll keep it there til he's home. One dollar gone on a sticker.... many other dollars gone on care packages, and to charities. Just because I have a sticker on my car does not mean it's fair to assume I haven't spent my dollars in ways you consider to be more meaningful.

Food for thought.

My Causen joined the Marines after 9/11. His mother (my Aunt) was so happy with him. MY Aunt and I got in a yelling match over military use (I was against the use in Afghanistan and Iraq she was pro both). He was shipped over to Iraq, his mothers is now Anti Bush because how dear he send him to war. HELLO he joined the Armed Forces it’s his JOB so shut up and live with what you did. (She pushed him in to joining)

John Kerry Voted to go to war in Iraq (with Bad info) and then when asked for money to support the war he voted for he said not (because of the good info). Now the problem is we are there and not getting out why are you voting no?? Lets stop blaming Bush and start pointing at the people who really voted for things. Remember John Kerry was part of the Intelligence Comity and had all the fact that Bush used to go to war and they approved them.

We are at war and our troops should have what is needed. Our Repusentatives and Senators have been cutting military spending. A former President also asked for more cuts and got them. This is the real problem. Don’t get me wrong I hate Bush, but lets blame him for what he did not what others did.