And your yellow ribbons still aren't enough

My comment had ZERO to do with the government. Its about people sticking their nose up at others reguardless of subject. The "holier than thou" attitude. People driving their 'status symbol' cars which they paid way too much money for that then turn around and belittle someone with a $1 sticker on their car. It wasnt just about the war, even went to belittle those that wanted to remind the public about other issues like breast cancer. Sure that $1 might not have gone to breast cancer research but it does remind others when they see it that its an issue. And those reminders might lead to donations or funding towards actual research or whatever the cause.

Oddly, I see the greatest profusion of ribbons on "Yuppie" SUVs and other high-end vehicles. Not that it matters, unless you're gearing up to decry one side or the other as elitist. But that would be sort of a stupid tangent, wouldn't it?

If you paid attention to the thread you'll know where my comments are directed. I could have been more specific but that could be boarderline TOS infringement. I dont mind yuppies. In fact it doesnt matter their background, when they spew crap reguardless of origin, I speak up if I feel like it. And I tend to find less bumper stickers on higher end cars than lower end cars. Oh well.

Sadly, I don't think many of the masses take the time to do the research along these lines. In general our people ignore our mistakes of the past and go on to repeat them in other countries and make bigger messes. We created the mess over there and in many other countries in our own hemisphere as well.

We have little to no accountability for the actions we take on other countries and thus far the world community hasn't been harsh enough on us to get our government to stop enforcing its ways onto other peoples and countries nor have our citizens been educated and vigilant enough in enforcing accountability either. Otherwise, we would either have A.) Taken the Talibans offer and captured Osama.. operation over.
or
B.) withdrawn from Iraq after having found NO WMD's.

Sadly I think 75%+ still don't get the big picture that Osama was the target and responsible for the 9/11 attacks and not Saddam. As bad as Saddam may or may not have been we had no right invading a sovereign country under false pretenses (WMD's) and after doing it anyway and NOT finding any WMD's we should have came home and left well enough alone, but no we stay and make things worse.

Think how its going to feel once the world has had enough of our BS and we are invaded to remove our Gov. from power and then those people stay for years "rebuilding" our country and raping it of its resources while TENS OF THOUSANDS of our CIVILIANS are slaughtered in the process.

I still want to know how we justify not extraditing Luis Posada a terrorist .. to the countries that want to try him. We are fighting a war on terror(ists) correct? Standard hypocritical BS we (the US) have become all too well known for throughout the world.

I pray one day the Brits can find a Minister who will stand up to us (like the one in Love Actually =) ) it may be the worlds only hope.

I also pray there is more intelligent life in the universe, if there isn't... we're all screwed.

Actually some people in this thread say Osama wasnt responsible and imply that either our government or some New World Order was responsible. Do you agree with them?

How many people died under Saddams rule? And if he was still in power how many more people would have died from him and his goons? I think if you did the research and compared the numbers, far more civilians have died from Saddam rule than from the war. Far more.

And would those intelligent life forms sit happily around while someone like Saddam butchered his own people? Yes I know life was more pleasant when Saddam was able to kill in peace and quiet.

so a holier than thou attitude applies to everyone but yourself?

I see the ribbon sickers/magnets on a wide range of cars, not just the high end ones.
Though for the most part I see them on SUVs as they guzzle the gas being fought over.

No, the ribbons don't remind me of any issue. I don't need to see what other people donate to, including breast cancer research.

I don't need a ribbon to show off to friends and people if I donate money to a cause.

I'm a yuppie? hahahahaha. That's hilarious. I was beginning to think you had no sense of humor at all.

About those $1 stickers raising awareness that can lead to donations... no, sorry. I pesonally think that people buy them to feel better about themselves and to say something about themselves to the people behind them on the freeway. There's a big difference between saying "look how altruistic I am" and actually being altruistic. They're about vanity, not fundraising. It's not like I'm going to see one on a car and think "breast cancer is an issue?!" and smack my forehead. Next time you're tempted to buy one, don't. Look up a reputable charity and send them the dollar instead.

If having pride in the fact that I do support the troops and my nephew *was* there, then yeah I guess it could be mistaken for me feeling vain. Did you ever stop and think that someone with that pink ribbon on their car may be a breast cancer survivor? Or lost a loved one to breast cancer? A lot of people view their car as being an extension of themselves. If they didn't we would all be driving Yugo's *har har*.

Everything you buy for "just a dollar" is putting money in somoene else's pocket. When you buy a Coke from McDonalds, hell you are putting money in not 1 but 2 greedy corporation's pocket.

And did you know that when you give your money to these "reputable charities" just how much of your dollar is actually going to the people that need it? If you want to do some research, go research how much money the CEOs of big charities like United Way make each year.

Statistics are subject to wild manipulations, but let's take a shot. The White House website claims that "hundreds of thousands" of Iraquis died under Hussein. That's a very wide range, but if we take the top end, round to an even million, and divide by the 20 years Hussein was in power, we get a rough figure of 50,000 a year.

Civilian casualties from the US occupation vary even more widely. Studies from human rights organizations, medical journals, and other non-propaganda sources put the body count at somewhere between 14,000 and 198,000 per year. The difficulty of accurate data gathering in a war zone make this number little more than a guess, but the average of the high and low guesses is in the neighborhood of 100,000 a year caused by the invasion and occupation.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think the numbers are firm enough to draw ANY conclusion at this point. The administration obviously disagrees, but at this point I don't believe anything that comes out of Dubya's mouth without verification from an independent source.

I in no way begrudge people the sentiments that cause them to buy those stickers and magnets. I know they mean well. They're admirable. The vanity aspect is subconscious. But people need to look at this in terms of simple logic... the millions of dollars spent on those items could be put to much better use than to provide reading material for the guy in the car behind you.



And what does McDonalds have to do with supporting the troops or breast cancer exactly? (probably about as much as the sticker industry, so should I take it that you're starting to see my point? hehe).



Some money going to the people who need it is a whole lot better than none, don't you think?

The point with McDonalds is that you said the stickers were just making someone else rich. We all make someone else rich in one way or another. As I said before, its one thing if the stickers said they were going to a charity. They aren't advertised as such.

I would be hesitant to say some money going to someone that needs it is better than none, but I tend to give more to people I see that need it vs. some "non-profit" charity that has greedy execs posing as glorified tree-huggers at the top of the post.

I would like to look at this as you starting to see my point instead hehe.

Who said that? Not me.

SUVs dont mean high end. There are high end SUVs, but there are also low end ones. I see more stickers on soccer mom cars than I do on a high end lexus. If you feel different then no biggie. Its not a big deal if we disagree and if you show me data otherwise I'll more than be willing to change my opinion. In either case its irrelevant to the discussion.

As stated in another post, what if that person is a breast cancer surviver? Are they showing off?

I didnt say that.

Yeah breast cancer survivers are just boasting about themselves.

I didn't say SUVs were high end. read the post. I just said that's where I see the stickers most.

Yes, I think that person is showing off. I like to keep those things private and tend not to proclaim what I may or may not have survived from or what I donate to.

How do you know it's as simple as "attitude". How do you know it's not the beginning of something more. People are waking up Chris.

No I am just mad that they go and spend all that money and then waste even more by bombing the wrong things and killing innocent civilians. Nothing else.

Explain.

I'm sorry, Chris. If you include the US-driven sanctions leading up to the 2nd Iraq war, the figure of innocent dead at US and collaborators hands is way over half a million. Thats ignoring everyone but the children. I actually have the video clip on a hard drive somewhere of an interviewer asking Madeleine Albright, then I believe secretary of State, if it was true that 500,000 Iraqi children had died directly as a result of sanctions. Through lack of food, lack of medicines, lack of water purification supplies and of spares to repair the drinking water infrastructure bombed out of existence by us. She actually confirms the figure, and uses the immortal words that it was "worth it" for what has been achieved. This clip was never repudiated or declared fake, but the stir quickly died down. Too quickly.

If this had been done by a coalition of african countries to a christian country it would be called "genocide" and the leaders would be on trial for crimes against humanity.

Useful having a military with so much technology hardly anyone dare argue, isn't it ? Just like the bully in the playground.

Did you notice the little frisson of "inappropriateness" you felt when you read "to a christian country" ? Sort of like things could never ever happen that way round ? Much like a white in the american 20's would have felt if anyone had hypothesized a black man sitting in court in legal judgement over another white ?

If you did, note that these little frissons tell us where our hidden prejudices lie.

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Edit: Can you comprehend it ? 500,000 innocent children , just like yours and mine. I cannot even begin to imagine that huge wall of human grief rising into the sky from the distraught and impotent hearts of those parents, brothers, sisters, etc etc. I wonder one of us dares even set foot on their soil. 500,000. I have tears in my damn eyes. And she knew, she admitted it.

Oh you supporters of the policy, please, just for one second allow yourself to contemplate it. What you would still feel if you had been one of those parents, or a brother............

As you know very well there was an oil for food program which was intended to help feed the children of Iraq. As it turns out, they were the only ones who didnt get a piece of the action. The sanctions could have been lifted just as soon as the government of Iraq chose to abide by the terms of their surrender agreement following the first Gulf War. They refused to live by their agreements, as limited and benign as they were, and by being so very obstinate about letting in the weapons inspectors they sealed their own doom by convincing everyone that they must still have lots to hide.

Even if this is correct (and it can be disputed) you are actually advocating that half a million children can be collectively punished by death if their government does not knuckle under to our demands. If you kill or deliberately starve just one small village worth of civilians to death in a balkan war, to try to force information out of them, or to punish their "side", or to pressure the leader of that "side", that is a crime against humanity.

If you do exactly the same thing, but much, much, bigger, its suddenly ok?

Even if I believed, as you and M.A. clearly do, that it was "worth it", can you at least concede, David, that there must be millions of relatives of these dead children alive now in Iraq, and that it is only to be expected that they should loath and hate the Americans ? That not everyone shooting our troops is a politically-motivated insurgent who just "hates freedom". Can you concede that ? ? ? ?

And maybe that you would be shooting too if it had been your lovely little sister ?

Or will you concede nothing ?

It's easy to pull figures and numbers out of the air and I don't know how many children happen to have died in Iraq before during or after the sanctions, so it's hardly right for me to concede anything. I don't particularly like children, so it's fairly certain that I won't be missing them much. I will concede only that if by pushing a button I could eliminate every Muslim, I would definitely have to give it some thought. Eventually it is going to come to that, I fear, and too many of our own children will die defending this nation and our greedy, vulgar culture.
My lovely little sister was raped and beaten nearly to death and I had the guy who did it disposed of in a rather permanent way after the District Attorney in Hancock County, Maine refused to prosecute him and he attacked another young lady at the same college. Sometimes the law fails you so you must take it onto yourself to do the right thing. If I were Iraqi I am certain that I would see the coalition forces as stabilising elements and be glad that they had finally come and ended a brutal and repressive regime.

Still reading the thread, will finish, just had to respond here already. *blush*



That is not true at all Chip. It promotes awarness to others (when you see those ribbons, it *does* bring the issue to your mind - voluntarily or not), and in the case where someone may not know what it means, it encourages them to ask. It also allows an individual a way to publicly display their support for an issue.

I personally have a Yellow Ribbon. I also have a Pink one to show my support for breast cancer research (which many women in my family have had), and I have a Blue one, that shows my support (and hopefully brings awarness to others about) Autism research (my daughter is autistic).

These Ribbons *do* mean something. To a great many people. And to me, the very fact these yellow ribbons piss you off because you are opposed to what they stand for, only shows me that they work all the more.

Very good advice Neehai!

My response to this..

If the American people were not FORCED to pay taxes and FORCED to pay into a laughable-that-won't-be-there-in-10-years Social Security system, if the American people didn't expect the government to pay for every stupid mistake they make, including the inability to close their two legs once in a while;

Well, then we might actually have enough money for the one and only job that our government SHOULD be doing. And that is funding our military and providing security to the United States.

My opinion of course..

I felt you were saying this too Chris!

Though I disagree about the Holier than Thou attitude. I think it is more *passion* that comes across hurtful to those that are passionate on the other end of the spectrum (this goes both ways in this type of conversation). And I would never think Chip to be someone driving a "status symbol car". He is the ultra liberal that I actually adore tremendously. Even if I often want to cut his hair and put him in a cage.