Stop Paying People to Attend Your Event

We had a Thinkers meeting today about the diversity (or rather lack thereof) in events. Bill Boffin suggested a tax for everyone which would pay the hosts/teachers of educational events.

While I do not think this is the answer, something else occurred to me -- what if it was made illegal to pay people to attend your events?

Additional points:

1. There are more club and tringo events than any other event. I am not saying that these should be shut down, but I do think that they have an advantage over other people who can't pay people to attend (or don't want to donate).

2. Teachers of educational events for newbies will be paid a nice sum (maybe like $L500) to host them, by LL. These events should be held on Linden land to discourage the gaming of dwell payments.

3. Privately held events (educational or not) may not pay people to attend. They may charge people for attending if they wish, however.

4. Commercial events should be allowed. They should also be free (a no-brainer here).

5. Contests are a gray area. In many respects they encourage creativity (like the City Girls' fashion design contest, and the Chinatown/Seberu--sp? photograph contest). However, sexy avatar contests, while they can be fun and should not go away, are not necessarily creative. So maybe in terms of *those* contests you could win something ... but not money.

6. Independent hangout/discussion events are classified as "social" and should not pay people to attend them. In fact, there should be more of them but no one goes to them because they don't get paid.

7. Yard sale events -- I've never been to any of them, but I don't think you get paid to attend. Thumbs up for me.

Why I think this would make things better:

1. Less of an emphasis on going to events as a way to make money.

2. More of an emphasis on having events to make money.

3. Less complaining about having to be "creative" in order to make money. I understand that not everyone is good at making clothes or building or scripting.

4. A higher ratio of educational and general fun events to club and tringo events.

5. More original events that require you to pay for them (a small sum -- I'm thinking no more than $L50, though that would be up to the event holder).

Some drawbacks:

1. Bad teachers.

2. Bad teachers on their own land charging you for stuff they can't teach well.

3. Lots and lots of contests to draw people to your land for dwell. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it would not encourage diversity in events.

4. The money balls. How on earth would you get rid of them all?

I want us to move away from the school of thought that in order to go to an event you should be paid. I believe that if there is no option to pay people to attend, other people would be more encouraged to have their own events because they would be less afraid that no one would show up. I'm not attacking club or tringo events, nor am I attacking people for being generous with their money. I just think it's time for a major change.

i sorta skipped most all of your post but i think i get the jist of it.


1) if people attend an event, the owner will keep throwing them.

2) if you start limitting peoples options (making certain things illegal?) you will run off decent players

3) who is going to print the new revized 1000 page edition of the TOS for all the stuff people say should be illegal or should be limited or monitored?

4) are you going to read it to me?

5) do i need a lawyer to play SL?

6) if people arent intrested in the events being held they will stop going- and the events will end.

7) teachers and educatiors are hard to find and the payout is crapola VS the time and energy to teach just one person. any educator is not doing it for the L$ bonus.

the lindens are a governmental body- they should not be relied on to run events, provide land for events, or anything of that nature. there are plenty of people who will willingly let you use their land for events.

If you want to host an event and dont own land, IM me ingame I got a TON you can use and at no cost!

I am for creative thinking and I know you mean well, I just dont think all your ideas would be in the best intrest of SL as a whole- nor for a good deal of people who enjoy their menotenous events.

Make it mandatory that they all have to be made as photorealistic testicles, accompanied by hover text saying 'If you want some money, just touch my balls'

Ok, first of all, let me clarify that I am *not* attacking those who do run events (and run successful ones). I am not trying to keep people from attending them either! I just want to encourage events other than tringo and club ones (and I do appreciate the fact that so many people find them interesting).

However: I think it's important to remove the advantage that these people have -- bribing people to attend their event. And while I'm sure you can have fun at these, you can have fun at other events to. The more the merrier!

Lo, you've got a good idea, and it's inevitable that it's going to get attacked by those who actually do pay people to attend their events. It's bribing and we all know that. I think this widespread custom is one reason why innovative non-bribing events are poorly attended.

You forget one simple fact:

All the basic members that lost the opportunity to rate their way to money, those without the knowledge, talent or patience to create and sell their own stuff. The socializers, the 9.95 lifers.

What will they do if you take away their last opportunity to make money, attending events? Without any possibilities to buy the cool stuff they want, they will quit, and suddenly SL has half the population. Not all are fortunate enough to have the RL wealth to buy L$ off GOM.

If your idea was to be realized, merchants would hurt, since their customers are no longer in game, landlords have no tenants to rent out apartments to, and events would get even lower attendance than today. Say welcome to Second Life, the game for the rich or talented.

You call it bribing, I call it giving them a chance to make money.

Okayyyyyyyyyyy

Your missing the point just a little bit but......We have stopped holding events,a little over two months ago now,and we've never dropped out of the top 20 most popular.

Now this is where you miss the point - holding events was FUN

Why have the quality of events plummeted? because most of the people who were event hosts now gamble to make some money.People make the mistake of thinking that a top 20 spot pays for your land tier through the dwell incentive - well it doesnt.

The places that hold events for fun are vanishing benneath hordes of gambling venues that have become the stock trade in Second Life.If you own a club and have no income in SL then you always ran at a loss even WITH event support but that little bit of help from Linden Labs did help - now however you HAVE to make events pay and thats taken the sparkle out of them because people now do it because they HAVE to.

These changes will have a knock on effect that we have not seen yet but eventually the communities will begin to suffer and that cant be a good thing.All it will take is for something to come along that grabs the imagination and the 'social' players will leave in hordes. Now thats not doom-mongering thats just a fact - go ask the makers of THERE & TSO where all their social players went - they came to SL.

I know quite a few people that have now gone BACK to TSO - *shudders*



These are wise words and someone up at Linden Labs should take heed.

Having attendance (entry) fees for events would hurt the ones who are 'lifetime $9.95'. I mean, if they get only L$ 50 / week, how many event could they go to? Maybe 2 a week? That would possibly make them go away.

And of course, you can not expect them to invest money (real USD) to go to events, if they did, they'd be like in THERE "pay for everything you see".

Still, people are needed, they can socialize, having an audience or even a poor contestant makes an event much much better. It's better to party or compete with 10-20 people based on talent than based on 'who's rich enough to compete'? How good would be a Primtionary event with only 2-3 people, instead of 15?

Honestly, I dont understand why so many people, including LL, are trying so hard, to make this world so much like RL.

If LL is getting a kick back from GOM and IGE, yes I can see what would motivate them to cause such a huge financial depression. Unless you are incredibly talented and already have RL tools, you will never amount to anything in SL... Thus you must BUY $L in order to do anything. OR you can go to events where people are giving out prizes and money. So why take this from them as well ? To force them to buy $L ? LL has forced this Tringo/Bingo/Slingo outbreak/addiction themselves, there is no other way to get fantasy money to buy fantasy things if you are a normal person. One thing I do notice is, people that have been here for a long time, and already have everything, and plenty of left over $L from when stripends were better, seem to be the ones wanting things to change.

Ive seen many replies in other threads where so many people say "Everyone should be working or building stuff" Excuse me ? I have a RL job, I dont come to SL to stress out over another job, and lack of money to do things with. Why would anyone want to work all day, to pay the bills to come into a game, so you could work to get money to to things you want to do ??

To what end does this take us, where we all suddenly say "to hell with this, I have a RL I can have this aggravation in" and move on ? This IS a fantasy world, lets not get to carried away with making it like RL.

[/B] that these people have -- bribing people to attend their event. And while I'm sure you can have fun at these, you can have fun at other events to. The more the merrier![/QUOTE]

So why are you not hosting these other events whats stoping you afraid they are not going to show up the same fears we have as owners. Do you have any idea how much work go's in just to make 1 event. So if flops and in many cases we have we don't beat dead horse we move on. And as for the bribing people excuse me you can ask any one coming to the ice dragon Resort if we are bribing them to come. I don't think you like the answer
they come when they want to play tringo and they leave when they want. Sure we put L in the events but not anymore then what we spend on other non-tringo events. Those big pots you are seeing are from other players in those games spending ther L. and we love them all

Yeah,

I've heard this before. Event diversity is fine and anyone should feel free to post any sort of unique event they can come up with. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that educational events are rarely well attended in comparison to social events. I've heard the hosts say, "Well, we had 6 people. That's pretty good for an educational event."

I think the Lindens made a huge mistake by eliminating event support right after nerfing the ratings stipends. They appear to be trying to force people into premium accounts which I do understand is more profitable for them, but don't be surprised when people find other ways to make money. They are creative and will always work to find a way to improve their SL lot. Either that or they'll leave and find another game.

No one is being "bribed" to attend an event..... this is just an inflammatory choice of terms designed to evoke an emotional response....

This is nothing more than another anti-business ploy by those who hate seeing others being succesful in a GAME! I am so tired of the steady drum beat of anti-business voices who want nothing more than to look at the trees and oh, be educted. This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. Do you propose that the Lindens make having fun illegal next?

We already have way too many restrictions in this game. Why add another layer? By the way, who is going to police this new policy? We have already seen that the Lindens don't exactly use an even hand when it comes to policing SL. Besides, the Lindens have more important things to worry about, like the stability of the grid and getting these damn bugs worked out.

You know what, I am proud that I "bribe" people to come to Night Mountain (Moen 190,40), a multi-use complex that I have spent a month working on, perfecting and expanding. I am "shameful" in how I want to WIN this GAME by WINNING a developers award. I am extremely pro-business, because SL is the true "ownership society".

Stop trying hamper how I WIN the GAME. Stop whining that I have some unfair advantage over you because I pay out prize money or give out free money through a free money orb.

Just stop your damn whining period and play the GAME!

Hey Timmy, I'm *anything* but anti business. In fact, I have a business of my own. Got it? Nor am I "jealous" of other people's success. This is all just noise you're throwing at me.

You are personalizing it too much. My only beef is with the lack of diversity in events. All I want to do is move the emphasis away from going to events to earn money.

People say they don't go to events to get paid? Ok ... would you honestly go to a club event if you didn't have a chance to win money? There's no right or wrong answer here. Either you would or you wouldn't.

I only believe that people who might have thrown interesting events are too shy to because they're afraid no one will show up because they can't pay people, or because it isn't the event trend du jour. I've had individuals mention it, as if it was a fact of life.

Ok, I know I'm getting a bit Affirmative Action on all your asses, but I still think that in the long run it'll help us rather than hurt us. It's in LL's best interest to foster variety and creativity in SL -- that's their selling point (well, their public-friendly PG one).

Maybe because the same people play both? I am continually reminded that people tend to place more value on that which they pay for. Someone described this tendency in a discussion about a vendor stalls which were provided at a ridiculously low cost in order to help newbies get started. They were close to a telehub, practically free, but apparently not valued.

This morning I heard a conversation where one gal asked another if her her shirt was a freebie. A quick retort was that all free items of clothing had been eliminated from her inventory. (BTW, some of my favorite shirts were free; thanks!)

I often wonder if this attitude isn't at play here. We willingly pay for almost very form of entertainment or are aware of someone sponsoring it for us. Nope. this isn't RL; but are we so successful at leaving our ingrained value system behind?

Variety and Creativity are subjective terms. Your definition appears to be quite narrow, and as a result - events like you're suggesting appeal to a minority of the SL population, not the majority. IMHO, that is the reason why you're getting low turnout.

By using the word 'US' in the quote above, you are implying that you speak for the community as a whole, and I'm not certain the majority of the community feels as you do.

While these rules you suggest may increase the turnout at 'Thinkers' events, I strongly disagree that additional policing or restrictions are the answer to making the events landscape better for everyone.

I vote for Filters

I don't think it should be made against the rules for pople to offer prize money or contests or whatnot, but I do think it's really important for event hosts to understand that it's up to them to come up with something that's sustainable. Giving away money in exchange for attendance isn't, unless you have another revenue stream. The end to event subsidies isn't what's killing events... it's the "events = free money" mentality that's been drilled into event attendees and that event hosts don't seem to want to move beyond.

Oh no, that's not what I was doing. It is my opinon and mine only. I am not speaking for anyone, I am suggesting something I think would help diversify events.

Also: I believe that the reason that these club events are favored by the majority is because most of them start out as newbies who don't have any money.

Win free money? All you have to do is STAND there? It sounds like a dream for a newbie!

I would like to say that I do not begrudge these people's generosity, but I do think it puts a hamper on other events that don't (or can't) offer money.

Thanks for even caring enough about events to start this thread, Lo. You aren't alone. Apparently the "return events funding" proposition has more than 700 votes now!

I dislike moneyballs and gambling on a personal level, but certainly must admit that when I won money while attending an event, I never gave it back! As a newb, that extra 20 or 30 Linden a night won at clubs made a difference for me (until I started event hosting and feeling better about that because I felt I was earning my keep). This doesn't mean I think others shouldn't be allowed to have them.

I think that people should use whatever tact they want to, so long as it isn't griefing or bullying or some other TOS violation. If someone wants to throw their credit cards at the game repeatedly to be on top, that is that person's choice. I will work within the parameters I am comfortable with (which for me means only earned prizes (mostly objects from the Naughty Fun Store) and no moneyballs / gambling. What I really really want to see is that for events that don't have gambling or commericialism as a component, that support is there to pay the host for the work. Presently there is no sure way to do this to recoup for lack of access to volume (i.e. merchants can sell their works endlessly with no further investment in materials, to hundreds or even thousands of players. We can sell our work to only 10-30 at a time). These small numbers mean that prices at the door would have to be likely twice or three times what most people see as reasonable to pay the event host a modest fee. The simplest solution is to reinstate events host funding if done in a balanced way that does not put the economy at risk.

If anyone else out there cares for events the way the starter of this thread does I encourage them to vote for the proposition to restore some form of events host funding so that events hosts can get back to work making SL a great place for everyone.

If it doesn't work, people will stop doing it. It is a self-correcting 'problem' in my opinion.

Those avies that stand around clubs with money balls will either #1, deside SL is the most boring stupid game in the world and move on to other games; or #2 will get enough of a cash roll going to start supporting what they find interesting to do in Second Life.

Where is the problem here?

You want to have more diverse events? HOST more diverse events.

Bah - your making me grumpy.

We each of us choose our responses to things. If I react to something angrily, or happily or snappishly, I need to own that I did that. I chose that reaction. If you are reacting grumpily, certainly no one made you, Saul. ;-D

*loves Torley's quote: I'm happy because I want to be*... It is so true!

I get frustrated all the time when people who have never run an event tell me how it will work, when I have been there and it doesn't. I have to remember that people will offer expertise when THEY think they have it. I can choose to disregard it on the basis of evaluating their honest levels of expertise. Even though I have taught marketing irl and been a marketer irl, I didn't teach marketing in SL until I had marketed A. a venue, B. events, and C. a store with products in it. It was only then that I figured I had enough expertise to teach marketing in SL. It makes sense to me that people who simplify the question of events sponsorship without ever having run events in the current climate speak from a place of little expertise. That certainly is their choice to make. It is my choice to listen or not, to respond or not, and HOW to respond.

I'm gonna make a conscious effort not to respond grumpily, though often I do feel frustrated when someone simplifies the issue and isn't hearing the complexities of the problem. The thing is, I can take that frustration and channel it elsewhere. But blaming someone else for how I choose to react lets me off the hook pretty easily. We can never control the behaviour of others. I can only control myself, and this includes how I react to any given situation.

Have a great weekend! ~ Perse

Am in this for the short term, no? Am I looking at my "bribary" as a long term investment? Yes. I know that every bribe I make will in turn be spent at the retailers in my Men's & Women's Fashion Centers, the General Merchandise Center, by renting one of my condominiums or yes, even in my casino.

Let's talk about RL. Car dealers "bribe" you with low interest rates and those never ending sales. Malls will sponsor "side walk" sales for their retailers. Retailers themselves give discounts on merchandise all of the time. These are bribes in the hopes that customers will come to them. For every item that the consumer purchases on sale, they are just as likely to purchase a full price item. Hell, the retailer might even have a customer for life.

Would you fly a certain airline if they didn't offer you frequent flyer miles or some bonus program? Are you someone who clips coupons on Sundays for groceries and other items. Have you ever purchased something that you had never tried before, only because it was on sale?

Why in the world would you want to outlaw a practice that takes place IRL in SL? Your utopian ideals are a bit misplaced. Ask any new business, such as mine, what's the most important thing to stay alive? Its people knowing that you are there, period. Doesn't matter how you get them there, as long as they know you are there.

I offer "bribes" so as people will know that Night Mountain is there and I will get a return on my investment of time, sweat and L$s.

Not to be contrary but.....

I actually used to be this cynical so....I started a club. I wanted to know if people really did attend these places for the money.

We went thru three phases with two small incarnations of the club in Alta and then on to what is now in Brooks.

All we ever used was Linden Labs event support offering up to $600 in prizes and what the host got for running the event.

All our dancers worked for tips only

All our DJ's worked for tips only

We gave all our Vendors free spaces (usually people trying to make a start in SL)

We never used money balls

We went to No1 many many times and we were rarely out of the top 3

When Linden Labs scrapped event support we carried on for as long as we could, relying on donations & GOM and all our hosts did events for free.

Eventually we could not afford to pay for events AND pay the land tier and streaming fee's as well so events had to go,one of us lost our job so even paying the land tier became difficult so we had to charge our vendors too.

Today our club is rarely, if ever, out of the top 20 and we have not held an event for months. It's kept there by all the people who became friends during those mad months when the place was packed to the rafters with folks partying and having FUN.

To all those of you who say clubs are attended by people just for the money I say you are WRONG, and that each club has it's own community and I beleive in the seven months we have been open that we have proved that.

Most,certainly not all but most, club owners run their places for the love of it and for the thrill of bringing people together who would never otherwise meet. Some clubs even have their own urban communities too where the staff/customers all live together.

Can these communities continue to exist now that Linden Labs has ceased to support them? Only time will tell of course and we all have our own opinions on the subject but to say that people only attended these places for money is a very very blinkered view of things as they really are.

And that is my point exactly. If you hadn't had those "mad months", no one would have been there in the first place and you wouldn't have the returning visitors. We need to be able to bring in people, by whatever means necessary, including "bribing" in order to build up our name recognition, such as you have. Why deny others that opportunity that you so enjoyed?

What you talking about? I didnt say anything about denying anyone.

So LL should give you money so you can bribe people to go to your club? Methinks not. If you're always in the top 20 that means you're earning a developer incentive. Why not spend it all on $L at GOM so you can pay your hosts and DJ's?