Sailboat Races

Tonight, 4pm, Tompson 200,200.

Everyone welcome, come and learn how to sail or practise in the conditions for Saturday's regatta.

Saturday's regatta will be part of the SL-rentals.com series but will have it's own prize money so you can win outright.

There are no complicated ROW rules to learn making this suitable for sailors of all levels of experience - we have a few rules about not abusing SL (no editing other people's boats, no rezzing or editing yourself down the course) that are simply common sense. If you can catch them you can bump them... but bumping usually slows you down more.

I finally took some time to create a custom sail for my Tako. My goal was to capture the flavor of the America's Cup sails. I have two r/c sailboats in RL that are named Blue Angel One and Blue Angel Two. Here is my SL version, Blue Angel.

MarkTwain White

Nice sail Mark ......

Ditto!

SL Rentals Sailing Series - Fourth Regatta


The fourth Sailing Regatta in the SL Rentals sponsored series begins at 4PM on Saturday 24th of September at Tompson - come early to try out the course and have a few pre-race practice runs.

The series consists of six three race regattas for the Flying Tako wind powered sail-boat with the following prizes:

1st overall L$500
2nd overall L$200
3rd overall L$100

In addition there will be a L$1000 prize for the best overall score in the six regatta series.

This race will be under minimal rules and is an ideal chance for beginner's to come and experience racing sailing. No complicated ROW to worry about.

Please note: the races are only open to the competition version.

Assemble to start around Tompson 200,200, or to watch at Tompson 125, 160

Really cool design Mark. I have almost no time for SL, thanks to Katrina, and now Rita. It's like a breath of fresh air to jump into my Flying Tako even for a few minutes now.
I feel like I've been gone for years! Kanker's SL sailing is making a real statement!!!
Missin' y'all
Rmike in 'Bama

Hey Rmike! Great to hear from you! Are you back in your home? We are all looking forward to seeing you on the water soon! The waters here in SL that is.

MarkTwain White

I intentionally wasted the first two 'races' of last night's
practice session in Hollywood to illustrate why I consider
sailboat races without right-of-way rules to be harmful.
Kanker's contention that "ROW is for lawyers" is what pushed
me over the edge... so from the back of the fleet, I crashed
into Kanker 2 times (costing him a first place finish in the
second instance) What gives?

It is fun to play bumper boats and crash into each
other, but we should call that activity "Pirates of the Carribean"
or "ice hockey in sailboats" and not promote it as something
good for new sailors. No-rules races are very bad for new sailers.
If there are no port/starboard right of way rules, then it is not
possible to decide which way to dodge another boat, or which boat
should alter course to avoid a collision. How does this uncertainty
help new sailors? What lesson are we teaching them? Are the
new sailors always supposed to jump out of Kanker's way because he
is already faster than they are?

New sailors are at a speed and manuverability disadvantage
because of lack of experience. Removing ROW compounds these
problems by removing the starboard tack advantage they should
have. So the timid new sailer is not taught to assert their rights
in a way that will be appropriate in other sailing contexts.
No-ROW races strongly favor the most experienced sailors, and
ultimately frustrate and stunt the development of the inexperienced
since there is no process for teaching any rules.

No-ROW races also removes a whole layer of positioning and tactics
from sailing. In the no-ROW B fleet race last sunday I found I
could effectively block mush from passing me downwind by bumping
him with minimal loss in speed. Mush should have been able to
force me away when I was on port tack and he was on starboard,
but without ROW rules, whomever is ahead has a huge advantage.

To those that feel ROW rules promote controversy, I say that without
vigorous discourse it is not possible to achieve community consensus
on what is acceptable. Getting protested is a fast way to learn
the rules of the road, and the community discussion helps everyone
understand how the rules work.

MarkTwain said that I ought to be locked in a room with the
no-ROW advocates, so I'm posting this to explain why no-ROW is
harmful to new sailors. Its fun, but... let's have grapeshot, boarding axes
and boats that sustain damage if we are going to play
pirates of the carribean. If we are racing dingys, we need at
least port/starboard right of way and teach this to beginners along
with tacking upwind.

First, let's get one thing straight. I expect EVERYONE to jump out of my way, not just new sailors. This is ROK rule #13-4.a. Second, "ROW is for Lawyers" comes from one of the t-shirts in MarkTwain's line of SLSF clothing, and I believe it's meant to be humorous . I'm all for right-of-way rules in SLSF races.

Yes, Kanker... "ROW is for Lawyers" was and IS intended to be humorous along with the other sayings on Mark's t-shirts. There is obviously a debate going on regarding whether there SHOULD be no-ROW races - I suffer from the malady of being able to see both sides of the issue. Of course, one way to deal with it - is simply to participate in what ever type of race you wish.

I enjoy BOTH styles of racing in SL.

ROW rules etc. promote tactics, often promote better racing and undoubtedly promote confusion in some or many racers.

There are a number of fairly experienced racers in SL who will race with ROW rules but will also admit they don't understand them - indeed it could be argued with some justification that ONLY those who knew them feel comfortable with them, we're used to such things as part of our sailing anyway and I know I've been in a 'no rules' race or two and still dodged as if ROW applied.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage them to learn them although it can also be argued with evidence that running 'clinics' for the rules tends to not pull people to attend.

If we wish the sport to grow in SL, which I for one would like to see, then I think we need races that let people get used to handling their boats THEN introduce the extra complications that go with the ROW rules. This lets people improve their overall skills and their likely long term attendance. A 15 minute discourse about why so-and-so broke rule X might help so-and-so understand but is often not closely followed by the other people and if not well handled is at least as likely to make so-and-so give up racing.

In fact some people might well see even a fairly well handled discussion of the rules as "Dhraaama" which is usually bad in their experience. I know of several cases in which discussions (in a variety of contexts, not sailing in particular) which I have felt to be calm, rational and quite productive have had one or more participants later complain to me about the drama in the "furious arguments" - either I have very thick skin, there is a lot of abuse that flies in IMs, or "furious arguments" and "drama" are synonyms for not following or not 'winning' the argument.

You described that you 'wasted' the two races to take someone out - but people need that experience of contact being bad for both parties to appreciate why there are rules to prevent it. Maybe less so IRL, you can tell people it's to stop them damaging their shiny new boat after all, but in SL that's not as applicable either. You also described blocking someone out - can I ask how that is other than tactics in a new situation? You were using the existing rules or lack of rules to gain an advantage over another racer, tactics is exactly the same thing, it's just that the tactics are different. We can go on all day trading examples - but I can give you two examples of races having their results changed because 'tail end charlies' interferred with one of the leading pair of racers. They may or may not have known what they were doing, but the leading boats both clearly knew the rules and were taken out by boats that didn't or didn't notice the oncoming boats or similar. Protesting them may or may not have helped, but certainly didn't help the boat (once benefitting me, once costing me) that had ROW by the rules. You could argue that knowing the other boats didn't have to dodge would have changed how the leading boats approached the situation - certainly from memory I'd have done something different if I'd known the other boat didn't have to give me ROW, who knows I might have won too.

People have also stated we should have segregated races, if you race with ROW rules (A-fleet or whatever) then you should never race without them. Well as already stated I enjoy both styles of racing, but perhaps I'm the only one. I also think it's important that the people who are beginning see what the targets are when the good racers are racing. Some people might be purely driven by ego and the need to win, but unless they're already pretty damn good sailors they won't in either format regularly. Most of the racers will happily see their times improving, them getting closer to the fastest racers and thus their improving as sailors as a good thing. Without competing against the 'big boys' they won't improve as rapidly. As evidence there is a sailor (not names for forum rules, but I suspect you'll mostly know who I mean) who has been sailing in SL for just over a fortnight, and never sailing IRL. She doesn't always do well but sometimes she does wonderfully. The fact that she quite regularly practises and practises with two of those 'big boys' and asks and learns from them certainly hasn't hurt her racing at all.

So, to sum up. We could, indeed for many weeks we did, race without right of way rules and without real controversy. We had good attendance and a growing pool of sailors. We introduced ROW rules and we lost some of the regular attendees and failed to attract significantly (maybe even any) more. We'll see how the next few weeks of no ROW rules races and ROW rules races go, but Wednesday's practise attracted 2 new faces. Thursday's impromptu session 2 more. I wholeheartedly agree that racing with ROW rules adds extra elements but I disagree that we need them from day one, we need to get people into the boats, sailing and enjoying it before we add the extra layers of subtlety.

It depends on what you want I guess, a small pool of high quality racers and a really minority interest activity, or a larger pool of people learning just why we love racing and sailing and so much and gradually learning the intricacies of the sport.

Just a brief follow up. SL-Rentals.com Regattas are currently running without ROW rules, other than 'searoom'. I.E. you don't run other racers into objects.

The sole reason for adopting this course is to allow beginners to participate without having to worry about a number of not terribly easy to understand rules.

This decision wasn't taken lightly and a number of experienced sailors advised against it. However, in view of the poor take up of Tako sailing with the full rule set in place and the immediate improvement after having announced the change of rules, I for one feel it's a good move.

It's quite difficult to avoid a mutual loss of speed and placing if you don't avoid contact where possible, and most people quickly discover this and respond accordingly.
I don't think there is any point in playing 'bumper boats' and I would strongly discourage anyone from sailing in this fashion - especially to make a point and disrupt others enjoyment of a sporting event, or even practice or tuition events.

For newer racers, you might want a hybrid of the two styles of racing. It would simply be no ROW, but you need to give room to prevent "smearing" someone beside you into an obstruction, plus you want to avoid just smashing people head on just for the hell of it.

Not worrying about bumping and grinding would give newer folks racing experience without stressing over etiquette every step of the way. Racing a sailboat with others is far different from just taking it around by yourself. You need to learn how to pass and be passed without making it a deathmatch.

After that point, they can take on rules.



I just want to comment that I think it's great that sailboat racing has gone this far. I've found it to be a sport where it's competitive, where practice counts, and it's honest competition that isn't secretive favoritism. SLSF isn't eliteist or pretentious and welcomes/helps newcomers. Anybody can afford the required equipment, too.

I was trying to graphically illustrate that when Kanker and I both want the same piece of water, without any rules there is no way to determine who gets that patch of water. I'm not sure how to explain to a new sailor what to do in that situation without explaining about port/starboard. But since other players in the no-ROW races won't give way, I guess all we just tell people is that it is a game of chicken. Kanker, jump out of my way!

The problem I see with no-ROW downwind blocking is that there is no effective way for the boat behind to get through the block. With ROW, you can jibe onto starboard and have a chance to get some space by asserting your rights over the port tack boat. Without that right, you are locked behind and there is no way to change places on the downwind leg. So the downwind leg becomes a holding pattern. In the long run, what makes sailing interesting is the ways that people change places, and we are removing that from the downwind leg without ROW.

I want to see a lot of high quality racers, and I know that will take time and work recruiting and teaching. Is there a way to have it both ways by having ROW-lite in the B-fleet races? I'm stuck trying to figure out how I would explain to a new racer what to do when they and someone else want the same patch of water.

If there are no ROW rules, then yes chicken applies.

I must admit that Tako sailing often becomes a procession IME - it's actually hard to catch someone who's sailing well if you're also sailing the course sensibly, but yes it can be tricky to catch and overtake - but I've been in the situation where I've entirely legally blocked such tactics as changing tacks to try and overtake me - it changes the tactics, not kills them.

The biggest single issue, having tried to teach ROW rules to groups and to individuals, is that people don't understand port and starboard tacks for a variety of reasons. Most of those stem back to the fact that we don't feel the wind in SL in my opinion - so teaching rule 10 is actually bloody hard work.

IF no rules races increase the participation I suspect we might get to A, B and C fleet races situations - all rules, some, none. There's still that step to get them used to sailing, even if the more experienced racers are sniffy about 'bumper cars' races. But until you get them used to the racing they won't spend the time to learn the rules IME.

Y'know what, I'm sick and tired of all this crap. Count me out for all SLSF and SYC events. I'm tired of being ridiculed for not liking something. And for those of you who are stupid enough to call my style racing "bumper boats" you can kiss my ass. The No-ROW races aren't meant to be bumper boats, they're meant to be common sense races! Just because you CAN ram people, doesn't mean you should be a complete ass and do it!

That's it. I've had enough. I quit.

Funny you mentioned this - Eloise used this tactic (or something like this, I can't remember exactly) againts me in the first race we had in Hollywood. Hi Eloise! I was still new to the ROW rules and didn't yield and Eloise protested me. I don't hold it against her - we agreed to the rules, and she used them quite nicely to gain an advantage over me. It taught me more about ROW rules and probably even more about tactics in racing under ROW. But that just as a side note.

I think for beginners it's hard enough to get their boat under control and get it moving upwind, so enforcing complicated rules would only add another layer of difficulty that might discourage them from further participating. Of course in all-free 'bumper' races, experienced sailors will always have an advantage over beginners. They know how to get the boat on speed and probably also how it will behave under certain 'bumping' conditions (e.g. it's possible to use collisions to ones advantage, such as bouncing off sim boundaries).

So maybe a solution would be to have three types of races: one intended for new(!) sailors with a small, easy set of rules to let them experience the joys of sailboat racing and let them practice sailing under racing conditions, one for more experienced racers with full ROW rules enforced (of course anybody could participate in this one - it might just not be very enjoyable for inexperienced sailors), and a free-for-all bumper race - no rules.

I for one enjoyed the introduction of ROW rules to our races, because of the added layer of tactics it brought with it, but I think it's also fun to race under no ROW rules (not even one that forbids sailors to force other boats into obstacles *mischievous laugh*). As Eloise and others said, it affords a different set of tactics.

Our weekly regattas continue on Sunday with three regattas:

ROW Rules Regatta at 2PM
Using the same rules we have been sailing under.

NO ROW Regatta at 3PM
Using no ROW rules. A chance to race without the burden of remembering your starboard from your port, or your windward from your leeward.

LITTLE CRITTER Regatta at 4PM -- This is also a NO ROW rules regatta.

Something for everyone. Sail in one or all regattas (Little Critters only in LC regatta please). Or just come and enjoy the spectacle.

MarkTwain White

Overall results as follows (first names only a couple of new surnames for me):

Mark 1st 7.75 pts
Kanker 2nd 9.5 pts
Eloise 3rd 10 pts
Doc 4th 11 pts
Online 5th 13 pts
Pixeleen 6th 16 pts
Helen 7th 23 pts
Jessica 8th= 25 pts
Trico 8th= 25 pts
mush 9th= 25 pts

We actually had an eleventh racer who started one race and didn't finish it, so has not been included in the results. As the individual results will show (below) consistency is important, but one "bad" race doesn't necessarily exclude you from good placings overall either.

Race 1:
Kanker 6:03
Eloise 6:04
Mark 6:29
Helen 7:17
Pix 7:28
Online 7:54
Doc 8:03
Jessica 8:05
Trico DNF
mush DNS

Race 2:
Kanker 5:40
Doc 6:00
Online 6:09
Mark 6:16
Eloise 6:24
Pixeleen 7:05
Jessica 7:53
Trico 8:12
mush 8:21
Helen DNF

Race 3:
Mark 6:02
Doc 6:04
Eloise 6:06
Online 6:08
Pixeleen 6:22
mush 6:40
Trico 7:00
Kanker 7:24
Helen 7:33
Jessica DNF

The problem is how to resolve the situation where two boats both want to be in the same patch of water because it constitutes a proper course for both of them. That was the case for both collisions with Kanker. He wants the shortest path upwind, and I want the short path downwind. This is a classic conflict between the front of the pack and tail-end-Charlie. I have been struggling to come up with some sort of rule of thumb to guide acceptible behavior in the no-ROW races for this scenario.

If we go back to first principles, ROW rules are aimed at giving the less maneuverable boat more rights. This it the basic principle behind saying that overtaking boat shall not run up the transom of the boat ahead, the boat sailing a closer course to the wind has rights over other boats on the same tack sailing more off wind, and the rules about giving room for obstructions.

To apply this principle to no-ROW races, consider that tail-end-Charlie is clearly less maneuverable than those at the front of the pack (by definition: back of the pack=slow). In the game of chicken for that prime piece of water that is a proper course for both boats, the boat that is ahead in the race should jump out of the way. In this light, tail-end-Charlie is not taking out a leader, the leader was making an ill-advised choice in the game of chicken. In the discussions after last nights race, Oli made the valid point that the leader has no clue about which direction to jump, but at least we know who ought to jump now.


Alas, we are indulging in a sport that has a learning curve, and this is always going to be an issue. If we are going to have no-ROW races, we need to provide some guidance about what to do in the game of chicken. The best I can come up with is to say that the people who are ahead in the race would be well advised to give ground since there are many situations where both boats are sailing a proper course, and all we can do is fall back on the less-maneuverable boat gets more rights principle.

This is all an interesting thought experiment, since I feel like it is deriving ROW rules one at a time from first principles. The next step would be port/starboard since that would tell the more maneuverable boat which way to jump.

I'm going to suggest to Doc that we stay with the current next to no rules situation for at least one more week in the Tompson regattas.

But since all of the courses we currently regularly sail have boats passing in this fashion (faster meets slower head-to-head) and it's easy to apply that might make a good, clear rule that we can apply in world, whether as a rule or a guideline. It's also pretty easy to teach someone, especially since the newer sailors are likely to be the ones that are being told at the moment when you're going out and you meet a boat coming back try to hold your course and they'll try to dodge you. When you get better and you're the boat coming back you'll have to try and dodge them. (It will be trickier than that based on circumstances when the slow boat has to turn, but it's close enough for a first approximation in a teaching situation.)

It will be trickier for multi-lap races where it's not so obvious who's slow and who's fast as it currently is in our longer races, although it does nicely develop into rule 12, when you're overhauling you keep clear.

In general I agree with your fundamental thought of how the rules developed, although rule 13 is the exact opposite, and rule 10 could be written the other way just as well.

I agree. This makes sense. However I like it more as a guideline than a rule for NO ROW. I made a suggestion for a no hunting rule at the meeting yesterday to deal with the chicken situation. It was pretty clear that the consensus was that no rules should mean no rules. At least that was my take on the consensus. I am happy to go with that.

So if I ever find myself in the lead (rare) or near it (occasionally) in NO ROW races I will consider tail end charlies to be burdened by less experience and will avoid in the interests of self preservation. But I will not consider that I have any rights, as by definition there are none (or nearly none).

MarkTwain White

I'm currently working on a new version of the Flying Tako that explodes if it makes contact with another Tako. If the explosion takes place in a damage-enabled sim (like Tompson), the skipper will be instantly killed, along with any passengers. Don't worry, for an additional L$5000 you can buy a special Tako shield that makes your boat impervious to collisions and explosions. These new features might make "bumper boaters" think twice in future races. By the way, I'm kidding.

.........

Anyone up for a sailing expedition next Sunday? My idea is to sail as a big group (or two smaller ones, depending on how many sims we start crashing) from Eloise's SLSF dock in Gualala to either Waterhead Welcome Area (which has its own dock) or the new SLSF group parcel in Joiner. We would stop at least once along the way, probably at Aphrodite's dock in Takes, which is on the way (See the proposed route below). I reckon the trip would take one or two hours. I've done it before and it was very enjoyable. To keep lag down, we could fill up the Takos and either take turns sailing or draw straws for who gets to take the helm. If you're interested, watch this space for more details.

[EDIT] - Start time is 10 AM, at the dock in Gualala. If you come late, just find the big green sailing blob on the map and climb aboard one the boats.

.........

The SLSF now owns 2048 m2 of water in Joiner (165,130), where anyone can rez their boats. Oliphant built a temporary dock if you need something to tie your boat to. I talked with some of the officers about what to put there. We agreed to hold a SLSF Marina design contest, open to any SLSF member, with the winner determined by SLSF member votes. Here are the basic rules:
* Submit snapshots or illustrations of your design to this thread.
* Your design must use 150 prims or fewer (so we can have our boats rezzed at the same time).
* Leave an opening to the water for the parcel behind our parcel.
* Your design should include spaces for up to ten Takos.
* Be sure to include things to sit on (like chairs, for instance).
* [EDIT] - Try to limit your build to the inner 1024 m2 of the parcel, leavine the outer 1024 m2 for mooring, rezzing, and maybe one end of race start line.

LOL Kanker, you had me going there for a minute! Soundes great, I'm definitely interested! I've done the Waterhead to Takes part of the route a few times, and I think I once did some of the other part once as well, and it was most enjoyable - will be even better with a group of friends. Great news, look forward to seeing it.

Kanker, I just realized you don't need to make an exploding Flying Tako. If the passengers on the boats bring weapons, the crews on the Flying Takos can engage in battles while the skippers pilot the boats. Just think, we can re-enact famous naval battles on a small scale, and Doc can use that sword she was wearing Sunday when boats are at close range. Projectile weapons would be appropriate at longer range.

You would want a good skipper and a ruthless crew of at least 2 so that you can fight
both sides of the boat at once. In this scenario, a true pirates of the carribean experience is already well within reach. I hope it is clear that this sort of activity would need to be seperate from no-ROW races intended to help novice sailors. Blood running from the scuppers might be a bit off-putting, and the only naval engagement tactics I know came from reading Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin novels, but the idea has some charm. This would provide two paths to the novice sailor who wants to progress: learn ROW rules and try to improve in the race standing -or- become a pirate with a poxed crew of scurvy avatars.

I'm still trying to decide if I'm serious about this or not.