Sailboat Races

Is there some formal way to have SLSF change the rules we are supposed to sail under in SL? Rather than discussing the specifics of a proposal, I'm asking what the mechanism is for change. Is there a way to change the set of right of way rules we use?

We need to ask Kanker to call a rules meeting of SLSF. I was planning on doing that later today. But feel free to do so yourself.

I was not around for the start of sailboat racing in SL, but it is clear that we are accumulaing more and more of the RL sailboat rules as on-the-water time and experience teaches us that we do need to account for all of the possible scenarios of boat on boat encounters. Rather than re-inventing the RL sailing rules one at a time, I propose that we simply adopt all the USYRU rules now, and allow event organizes to make a few minor changes to these rules to accomodate local conditions. This is the opposite of what is in place now, where we have a couple rules and gaping holes in what is acceptable conduct on the water. As things stand now, I feel like I am in a chess match but we left out 80% of the possible chess moves, so it is not a very good chess game. Adopting a coherent set of rules would have many postive effects:

1.) We could surprise the US SAILING by telling them that we are using the USYRU rules and sending protest appeals to them. This alone seems like a good reason to do this to me. Excellent marketing opportunity in exploiting the RL/SL overlap, if anyone cares about marketing...

2.) We would treat sailing in SL are a serious pursuit. The sailors I see week after week at the races are either RL sailors or motivated people who actually want to learn how to REALLY sail. Abridged rules do not seem to be have attracted significant numbers of dedicated sailors based on the attendance of the non-right-of-way events. Dumbing down the rules to appeal to beginners has not been a stunning success as far as I can see. The lack of a rational set of right of way rules has alienated a number of sailors who have a lot to offer noobie SL/RL sailors. If we continue in the current rule regime we will fail to satisfy experienced sailors and will not attract significant numbers of new sailors. This is not a recipe for success. Let's at least make the dedicated sailors happy, and let them recruit more sailors.

3.) I have heard many, many times from event organizers how complex and scary right of way rules are. I do not agree. Beginners need to understand a couple basic principles, and after that, they do not need to get deeply concerned about memorizing rule 19.1 or the other rules. But perhaps you have a deep-seated personal need to become an expert on sailing right of way and tactics. Cool! If we adopt the real rules, you can read a number of books and learn some really good strategies at the same time. I'd recommend anything by Stewart Walker, but since we do not have rules that correspond to what he was writing about, this is a problem.

Why is it necessary to turn our back on a large body of accumulated wisdom on how to mediate boat-on-boat encounters and racing strategy? We have the same problem to deal with that RL sailboat races have... since RL sailors have field-tested a set of solutions for us, perhaps we can simply adopt the RL sailing rules, and stop fretting about what use and what to leave out.

I'm now going to slink quietly off to my corner and hide, but I can't help thinking that all the people who have raced real boats for a hundred years or so actually have a set of rules that works pretty well. Let's use them.

HOLLYWOOD (Dec. 4, 2005) -- Faykin Odets continues his current dominance in our Weekly regatta with another strong showing. While William Gide finished 6th, he showed promise in his first SL regatta. And Kanker Greenacre returned to the water after a hiatus but was hampered by a poor connection.

The $2000L prize for best finish among skippers that have not won a regatta went to Nber Medici who continues to show growing confidence on the water.

Regatta Results

1. Faykin Odets 4.50
2. Pixeleen Mistral 7.00
3. MarkTwain White 7.75
4. Nber Medici 10.00
5. Kanker Greenacre 15.00
6. William Gide 17.00

Race 1
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 1: Faykin Odets - +00:05:50
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 2: Pixeleen Mistral - +00:06:07
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 3: Nber Medici - +00:06:12
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 4: Kanker Greenacre - +00:06:51
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 5: MarkTwain White - +00:07:39
William Gide DNS

Race 2
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 1: MarkTwain White - +00:06:17
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 2: Pixeleen Mistral - +00:06:23
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 3: Faykin Odets - +00:06:29
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 4: Nber Medici - +00:07:20
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 5: Kanker Greenacre - +00:08:05
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 6: William Gide - +00:08:15

Race 3
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 1: Faykin Odets - +00:05:45
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 2: MarkTwain White - +00:06:13
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 3: Pixeleen Mistral - +00:06:16
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 4: Nber Medici - +00:06:26
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC: 5: William Gide - +00:07:06
Kanker Greenacre DNS

I agree in principle with Pixeleen's suggestion to adopt RL ROW rules.

Downsides that I see:
1) Complexity. I'm a bit (a bit? how 'bout a LOT) intimidated by the thought of trying to wrap my head around the whole ruleset. I don't have a lot of RL experience in regattas, and my interpretation of ROW has been along the lines of "stay out of the way of others so I don't have to spend MORE time doing fiberglass patching!" I can fully understand people being intimidated by the full ruleset, because I'm in the... same boat (hahah sorry ok last bad pun of this post, I promise).

Mitigating factors:
1) Intuitive. Actually, the vast majority of ROW rules are intuitive, once you understand the fundamental principles. I think I... and most others... can get to the point where we understand ROW enough to effectively give ROW when it is appropriate. After all, we all manage cars on the road just fine, and the rules there are MUCH more complex... but we don't manage ROW on the road by memorizing all the rules, but rather by understanding basic principles, and then applying those principles to specific situations.

2) Not critical. Acutally, most ROW situations are totally avoidable by using non-conflicting tactics. Sure, you may be able to eek out 2 or 3 seconds in a situation by pushing ROW, but in the vast majority of races, that will not be a factor. In the last regatta, the top 3 finishers averaged over 10 seconds between finishes. ROW was not really a factor in deciding the overall regatta, or even overall placement, except possibly when ROW limits were pushed and exceeded.... more conservative tactics would probably have resulted in better placement (at least by me! ).

Advantages:

1) Build on existing knowledge. Why re-invent the wheel? People have been sailing for as long as written history has existed. That body of knowledge has slowly been refined over the ages, and the current apex of that knowledge is embodied in the ROW ruleset. Let's take advantage of that distillation, rather than trying to re-create it based on the experiences we are having here in SL. For example, how many avoidable conflicts do we have to have before we adopt an accepted ROW rule, the hailing requirement? I see the experiences we had in the last regatta as a strong push towards requiring hailing to assert ROW, but do we really have to suffer thru every situation that has created the existing ROW ruleset before adopting them? Let's learn from the mistakes of others, rather than repeating them!

2) Complete ruleset. The current ROW ruleset is pretty darn comprehensive, covering practically all the possible interactions between 2 (or more!) boats on the water. We won't be facing new situations that the rules don't (yet) cover. Let's all get protected by the rules.

3) Consistant and fair. If we adopt a ruleset that is maintained and administered by an organization that doesn't have a vested interest in the results of a given regatta, then the ruleset is more likely to be fair to everyone participating in the regatta.

4) RW crossover. One of the biggest draws, for me, of sailing the TAKO is how well it emulates RW sailing. Sure, there are gaps... like sheeting in during jibes and tacks... but overall, the realism of the sailing is what keeps me coming back. Adopting a RW ruleset will allow SL to contribute to my RL sailing skill set, and if I could become a better sailor IRL because of my SL experiences... I can't even tell you how stoked I would be. Right now, I believe my skill as a SL sailor can be directly attributed to my experience as a RL sailor. Closing the circle would be a HUGE incentive for me to keep sailing here in SL. This can potentially create a whole NEW set of SL sailors - RL sailors who want to have a place to practice ROW, without taking the risk of dinging (or worse!) their boats. I, personally, have avoided RL racing for just that reason - I don't want spend even MORE time doing fiberglass work.... I hate fiberglass! (not really... well.. not MOST of the time...)

Well, those are my reasons, concerns, and overall perspective.


What do y'all think?

--Faykin Odets

Well, we were due for another meeting anyway. Let's all get together this Sunday, 12 PM SLT, at the Admiral's Daughter in Hollywood. If anyone can't make that time, speak up. Before then, let's all think about what makes SL sailing and racing different from RL sailing and racing. All members of SLSF are encouraged to attend. If any of the people involved in the original rules-making process were to show up, that would be great!

EDIT:
Scratch that, meeting's moved to next Wed, 7 pm, with another meeting the following weekend. See post below.

Using the FULL RL "Racing Rules of Sailing" currently does not make sense in SL. Why? Because most of us realize there are some very basic differences between RL and SL.

-- In SL you are often tacking every 10 seconds or so on a windward leg. If you were having to tack every 10 seconds in real life you would not have time to mentally process all the HAILS that RL sailing would occur in an crowded environment that small and time intense. And even if skipper A did get the hail out in time, skipper B needs time to process the hail and react. That just isn't practical many times in SL. Like so many things in SL, time and space are compressed here many many times over the RL counterparts.

-- Pixeleen has argued that without hails skippers have to read minds. I disagree. It is true in RL and even more so in SL that a skipper who is near another boat coming near an obstruction, or mark, or best course line will KNOW what the other boat is thinking. ITS TIME TO TURN FOLKS THE EDGE IS TWO BOAT LENTGHS AWAY, GET A CLUE! Any skipper that has ANY experience at all on the water can tell when a boat near them is going to be forced to make a turn. It ain't rocket science folks. In RL, radio sailing, and SL sailing I am often poised to tack because I know the boat next to has to do so within a predicable and often narrow time frame. So I reject the notion that we HAVE to have hails in order for rights to be made manifest. HAILS are good. But you don't need to be hailed to see that you need to tack away from a boat about to be run aground or into the sim border. The place isn't that big folks. If we use the FULL rule book and REQUIRE a hail to secure our ROW rights we will have to do a hell of a lot of communication and processing on every windward leg, even with gesture chat. And, unlike RL where there is often more one person on the boat, you are alone in your boat, and the tools you need to control your boat as the same tools you need to hail (your fingers). So even with gestures you must stop sailing in order to hail (yet another difference between SL and RL).

-- In RL you have a wide 3-D view that can be all taken in with the turn of a head. In SL you are looking through a small window on the world that is not easily turned in the intense fast paced environment that requires you to tack quickly and get ready for the next tack often only seconds later.

-- In RL racing there are almost always witnesses to a rule infraction. If the skippers disagree and a rules dispute is heard there are almost always enough witnesses and "judges" who know the rules and can both bear witness and judge the issue. Often in SL it will be the word of one skipper against the word of another. How many of you think the more "knowledgeable" or vocal skipper is likely to prevail in those disputes? And how may skippers do you think there will be in a typical SL race to serve on a race committee if the dispute is between two knowledgeable skippers arguing fine points of the rules? To use the full rulebook in SL racing without independent confirmation from very knowledgeable skippers is just asking for rules bullying.

-- In the RL Rules for Sailing there are nine appendices that in some cases (such as Appendix E for Radio Controlled sailboats) modify the rules for the different mode of the racing. If there are appendices to cover differences in REAL WORLD modes, what would the appendix look like to make RL rules work in a 2-D flat screen world where there are network time lags, poor communications at best, and little chance that there adequately knowledgeable skippers not in the fray to adjudicate?

Mark, I agree with the basis for your conclusion - there are fundamental differences between SL and RL. However, I don't agree with the conclusion - that we should not accept the full ROW - because of that. I think you've brought up some good discussion points, but I don't believe that the differences between RL and SL are irresolvable.

With your permission, I'd like to go over the concerns you raised, and see why I feel that RL ROW can still apply.



There are a lot of different classes of RL sailing. If we are both sailing 46' ketches, I totally agree, 10 second tacks would not give us time to react to the changes in the boat and process hails, etc. This class of boat can't be sailed solo, so just the crew coordination would eat up more time than would be availible for a tack. So, I can understand and agree with the principle of this arguement in many situations.

However, my regatta experience is mostly with 14' lasers (and 16' hobie cats... but lets stick to lasers). These boats have no foresail, only a mainsail, and can easily be crewed by one... in fact, I can't think of why you'd WANT to have a crew. Tacks by a skilled skipper in the right conditions can be accomplished in about the same time as the SL TAKO. A course for lasers could include a 10sec tack leg without needlessly endangering boats and skippers. The response time for a skipper of a laser is simply reflex time plus control lag - and I submit that, in my experience, the time lag for this class of boat is at least on par with the SL TAKO. Others with laser experience, please feel free to rebuttle if your perception does not coincide with mine.

Therefore, I think the time frame arguement, altho applicable in many sailing classes, doesn't seem to apply to me when we start looking at the smaller classes of boats that I enjoy sailing.



Please pardon the abbreviated quote, I think that the essence of the quote was captured here. Please clarify if you think I haven't addressed your point.

I think the hailing requirement will actually PROTECT us from ROW lawyers, Mark. If we don't have a hailing requirement, I can imagine a sailor trying to draw subtle violations to force DQ's of a faster skipper. There were a few times when Pix and I were practicing, that she used ROW to suck me into violations that would have resulted in me doing a 360 or getting DQ'ed that would have been totally avoided had she hailed me. By creating a situation that communication of a percieved impending violation is requried to keep ROW, it gives both skippers a chance to assess the situation before contact, instead of after contact, where I think it's best to assess. I think a hailing requirement will actually reduce protests, instead of increasing them.

After all, wouldn't you rather have conflicts resolved on the water before contact, instead of after the race in a heated debate where all we've got is 2 people's memories of the incident, memories that are possibly skewed by vested interest in the outcome?

Think back to Nber's prostest of me... I think Nber and I are both calm and mature people, and neither of us have an axe to grind with each other (At least none that I know of... I adore Nber and have had nothing but positive interactions with her, and I THINK the respect and positive interaction is mutual). Yet we didn't really get a consensus on what happened during our contact, and who was in violation of ROW, and what penalties, if any, should have been assessed. In the end, Nber ended up withdrawing her protest rather than an agreement on the protest being reached. During the discussion, the absence of a hail requirement made it difficult to assess responsibility.



Mark, in my opinion, this is an arguement to adopt a hail requirement. In SL, a boat can easily sneak up in your blind spot and a collision occur without you ever percieving the other boat. Pixeleen did that to me once in one of our practice runs, much to my embarassment. Again, a hailing requirement would actually make these conflicts less likely to occur, instead of more likely.

Wouldn't you rather have contact avoided by aware skippers, rather than litigated afterwards?



Again, please pardon the partial quote, I think I have captured the essence of the arguement here. Please feel free to clarify if you think I've missed a critical section.

Mark, I totally agree with the basis for this arguement. However, I would like to reiterate the point I've brought up before.

Wouldn't you rather have contact avoided on the water, rather than litigated after the race?




So you are saying that the differences between real world sailing and SL sailing would require deviations in some RL ROW rules?

I agree in principle, if that is your arguement.

However, I would prefer to address this discrepency by adopting RL ROW, and then, using the body of knowledge that we are accumulating in SL, creating a SL specific appendix to cover appropriate rules deviations. Rather than re-creating the wheel, let's modify and existing, working structure to adapt it to the circumstances that we wish to apply it, here in SL.

In summary, Mark, I think you have brought up some points that are certainly worthy of consideration, and my perception of the possible resolutions are just that - MY perception. However, based on how I percieve the situation, I think starting with full ROW and modifiying it to fit our environment will result in a lot more protection for all the skippers than starting with nothing and adding rule by rule until we end up covering the situations we have encountered here in SL.

--Faykin Odets

Unfortunately your partial quote did indeed miss a critical point. Perhaps I should have made the point you missed a stand alone paragraph since it was buried in a larger paragraph. Bad writing on my part.

The important statement in my posting on this topic was HAILING is a good thing. In that regard I you I and Pixel are in total agreement. Unfortunately your partial quotes seem to make it look like I oppose hailing. That is not the case. Hailing is good. Repeat three times and call me in the morning.

The important corresponding "BUT" to my view that "hailing is good" is that we should not strip away a skipper's ROW rights because there was not time to hail and wait for a response before the obstruction is upon the boats. This has to do with the time compression that we sail under in SL.

The main question before us isn't based on the physics simulation, the question is do we apply the full rule book unmodified in an enviroment that has a radically different GUI (grapical user interface) than real life.

I pulled the following paragraph from my first post but I will include it now.

For me I would enjoy sailing under the full set of rules if it could be instituted fairly and reliably in a networked enviroment like SL, but my problem has to do with the barriers this will put up for those who are not used to sailing under a full rule book. It would be nice to hear from those that have left SL racing because they have felt intimidated by FOUR rules, much less scores of rules. But of course they are off doing other things these days and will not read this. On the other hand maybe those that have felt intimidated by the four rules will now be encouraged by use of the full rule book and will respond positively. Would be nice to hear from those folks who are concerned. Maybe I am championing a non-existent constinuancy. Remember the old adage, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Hey Faykin - I like you too and yes the respect IS mutual )

Here is my take (for what it is worth) on this whole discussion about different ROW rules. I was a RL sailor a number of years ago, but usually served as crew. Partially because of this, my grasp of all of the intricacies of ROW is improving, but not yet automatic. My protest of you was (I think) my first protest - and I felt very uncertain doing it. I did it partially because I want to become a more assertive sailor and thought at the time that I was right. I withdrew the protest because I was getting confused about the whole issue. So here is my point.... I enjoy sailing. I don't particularly enjoy the fuss about ROW. I DO think that it discourages some people (including myself) from participating in races. I do not know what the "right" resolution is. My only goal is to enjoy SL sailing with friends. If I can get better and be more competitive that would be great. Perhaps it is time to consider having "FUN" races for those who do not want the full panoply of ROW rules.

Kanker, unfortunately I will not be able to be around for this meeting. It is necessary for me to attend a real life event. Don't change the meeting just for me though.

I'm moving the meeting time due to schedule conflicts. For anyone who can make a Wed. evening meeting, we'll meet in Hollywood at 7 pm next Wednesday. For anyone who can't attend that meeting, we'll also gather on the following weekend, time TBD. I'll probably send around a group-wide proposal just to remind everyone, so I apologize in advance for the spam.

Nber and MarkTwain, I am really impressed by what you have created and sustained in Hollywood. It must be obvious that I am a RL sailor (various one-design boats and windsurfing), and I tell everyone I meet that half the reason I am still in SL is to sail. For me, the more real the sailing experience is in SL, the better, and this is as good as I have seen to date. Kanker did an amazing job on the Tako (but will you PLEASE get version 3 done sometime soon?), and I am honored to have been able to learn from and sail against my SL sailing mentors (including Eloise Pasteur, Oliphant Ming, Doc Neilsen, Faykin Odets, and Roundog Tonic, and many others). [*Pixeleen bows to her mentors*].

I love and respect you all, but...

W A K E - U P ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

We are cutting ourselves off from a huge body of knowledge about how to handle boat-on-boat conflicts and an amazing teaching and marketing opportunity. Has anyone looked at the website for US Sailing lately? They have GREAT tutorials and tests for sailing terms, and racing rules. Adopt the normal sailing right of way rules and there are books, videos, and web sites to point people to. Look at these:

http://www.sailingcourse.com/racing_producer.htm
http://www.sailingcourse.com/racing_producer.htm#Sailboat%20Racing
http://www.sailingcourse.com/racing_producer.htm#Basic%20Rules
http://www.sailingcourse.com/racing_test.htm

This is not just about how to teach people sailing by using the existing body of sailing knowledge (although that ought to be reason enough). We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to define the virtual reality addendum to the sailing rules if we will just stop trying to re-invent the wheel from scratch one rule at a time and adopt the normal sailing rules.

There is an appendix for radio control boat sailing, and there will be a VR sailing appendix sooner or later. You can be part of defining that or you can continue to indulge yourself and let some other group define the rules for VR sailing. Personally, I want to help select the few minor changes to the sailing rules needed for VR sailing, but to do that, we would have to give up the idea that SL sailing is so radically different from other sailing that we have to cherry pick the rules we race under.

There are not that many opportunities like this. It is a chance to really make a difference and a way to co-market with (and to) the RL sailors (and give them something to do now that the lakes are all frozen). US SAILING ought to be pointing to SL as a place to try out the racing rules they explain on their web site. This should be an easy choice. I guess the real question is do the SLSF members and the race organizers in Hollywood want to be the center of VR sailing or not?

Of course, we could continue to raise bogus objections like saying tacking every 10 seconds is too hard (not sure how that can be... I just hold down an arrow key and the Tako tacks just fine). Or we could worry that some noobie sailor might not hail for room one time... but there is this funny thing I noticed about racing: if you are consistently passive, you really do not do very well, give up, and go away. Racing is inherently a controlled conflict and being passive is not a wining strategy.

Anyway... it all seems very simple to me. Either choose to be provincial and let some other groups define the VR addendum to the sailing rules and attract the committed sailors -OR- wake up, admit that the bigger sailing community has both a coherent set of rules and materials to explain them, and make a couple minor changes to make it all work in SL.

Do you want to continue to pretend to sail under toy rules, or be part of the real sailing community?

your world... your imagination... and your choice...

The weather in Hollywood has been blustery lately. But slightly more moderated winds are on the way and may have already settled in. Until this week the average wind in Hollywood Bay has bordered on 20 knots with a swing of 40 degrees in wind direction. Now it looks like the wind will average more like 15 knots with greater variablithy in both speed and direction (60 degrees of shift over time).

With the change in weather comes a change in courses. We are returning to the popular LONG COURSE for awhile, with a minor change. The original windward gate has been replaced by a windward and offset mark. This means that the two marks at the windward turn are both passed on your port side now. No longer do you pass BETWEEN the two marks and choose which was to turn. The effect of this is to widen the sailing zone.

Come by over the next few days and get ready for Sunday's weekly regatta. And by the way, there is one $2000L prize yet to be claimed by the skipper who has not won a regatta in SL or has not won the $2000L prize in the past.

If your name is NOT on this list, you are eligible to win the prize: Kanker Greenacre, Oliphant Ming, Eloise Pasteur, MarkTwain White, Pixeleen Mistral, Faykin Odets, Nber Medici.

Having posted twice and have Safari crash once and the forum log me out for overlong writing and lose it all once a shorter reply! I'm reminded of Pascal - If I'd had more time I'd have written a shorter letter!

So:

I think we should, for ROW races bite the bullet, go for the lot. They cover all the situations we're ever likely to see. If they're all there then people will start to use them and the ones that don't work and can't be made to work because of SL's technology (very few I feel) we can look at changing. Anyone who can't tack a Tako in 10s isn't going to be challenging in a race, nor in a position to get in the way except by accident. I have parts of courses that rely on 3 second tacks and execute them reliably, even in races with 12 boat fleets.

There are two obvious potential issues - hailing in SL is harder than IRL, but from a quick traipse through my memory I think rule 19 is the only one that actually requires a hail, the rest are optional. Indicating who you're hailing is also a bit harder, you can't point, they might not realise you mean them and so on, but knowing it might be a bit harder we can look at how it works in practise.

Second, people 'see' different things. This is, of course, a problem IRL too, gorilla experiments etc. help prove that. But in SL you can't necessarily definitively prove a contact, unlike RL. We need to think what we're going to do when there's dispute about whether contact actually occurred, whether a boat was on a tack or not or similar. One option would be to put the onus on the ROW boat, but then we'll have people gaming that, so it does take some very careful thinking.

Finally, I still think there is a place for non-ROW races. They're not inferior, they're different. There are different tactics in the two types of races, and they appeal to a possibly partially overlapping sector of the racing fraternity. I would most definitely include me in that overlap: I enjoy both types of sailing and I certainly know my way around a sailing rules book and a race course as some of you might remember. They're also, to my mind, important for beginning sailors who are still struggling with learning how to cope with a Tako and don't need to worry about the rules too much. Having them open to all helps the beginners see the stanard that's required to do well in any race, and sail quickly to reach that standard.

A quick comment Eloise's post:

Yes, people percieve different things in both SL and RL. I suggest those involved in a disputed protest (one that is not immediately accepted on the water) should:
- save your chat log, this is evidence you'll need at the protest hearing
- take a snapshot of the scene and save that (more evidence)
- expect to write on a notecard what you think happened along with the evidence you saved

Ideally, the tako would have some magic llSensor that noticed collisions and logged them to chat. Lacking that, we still have something RL sailing does not: chat log transcripts and the ability to take snapshots from above the boats.

A race management issue:

Everyone hates watching ROW arguments between races. Rather than holding up the remaining races while protests are sorted out, we will all have more fun if those involved involved in protests prepare their evidence and their explanations of what went on, and submit that to the protest committee AFTER the races have been run. In RL sailing there is typically a limited period after the last race when un-resolved protests may be submitted for consideration.

In other words, protests not immediately accepted during the race should be handled after ALL the races for the event are over. This means we don't wait around while people argue, and those that just want to sail can get on with it. The protest committee can sort it out without serious time pressures, and there is even the possibility of appeal since the evidence and arguments are documented.

When I am on the race committee we are going to do it this way, just like in RL. This also tends to minimize the number of frivolous protests, and could have the side effect of creating a set of documents that explain what happened and how the protest committees ruled.

Well I have waited to see if anyone had any oppostion to full ROW. It seems I really have been defending the concerns of a non-existant constinuancy. Or at least one that doesn't read the sailing forum. So be it. So I am ready to bite the bullet too. I think it would be good to still discuss limited versus full ROW at the Wednesday meeting to give one final chance for dissenting views to be expressed, but I think the die is cast we are crossing the Rubicon. I DO have a solution in mind for those that are afraid to deal with ROW. See below.



I guess we need to dust off the rulebook. My memory is the same as your's Eloise. But unless I read Pixel wrong she has been saying that she does not plan to yield unless hailed. Part of the current debate has been based on my view that lack of hailng does not negate a skipper's rights. I am sure we will work through this question.





In discussions on this topic before we adopted the limited ROW rules I posed the question of adding a collision detection to the TAKO. I THINK Kanker said it could be done. Is that right Kanker?



I agree with this 100%. And Nber posted a similar sentiment earlier this week. Here is what Nber and I plan to do in Hollywood. Our weekly regatta will become full ROW. And we will bring back some form of No-Row sailing fun. This could be no row races, it could be sailboat soccer (as some of us have been playing with), it might even be sailboat "drag races" (I will describe these as time goes along). And I have other ideas on this. All of which will provide fun for all of us that want to do some non full ROW sailboat fun activities. From what i have seen so far, these FUN activities help skippers learn sailboat control quickly and help improve skills in a non competative, or at least competative-lite atmosphere. So hopefully as this develops we can meet the needs of all skippers and move the sport forward at the same time.



I agree with Pixel's idea here. Not sure about the idea of a photo of the scene as the infraction will be long gone before you can get a "photo" in most cases. But I agree that the best way to handle unresolved disputes is later.

Ok I will follow this post with another more formal post setting the stage for Sunday as a full rulebook regatta. I also would like a lot of help in ideas and management to come up with some FUN sailing games as mentioned above. I am considering have a FUN event at Noon. Regatta at 2PM and LTS at 3:30PM (later than before).

The weekly regatta this Sunday will use the full rulebook. Unresolved protests will go to a committee to be resolved after the events of the day. The weekly regatta will be using the Long Course and will be slated for 90 minutes instead of the old 60minute window.

Additionally we are adding a special event at 1PM called Sailboat Fun. We try some sailboat soccer, and sailboat drag races. Bring your ideas for future Sailboat fun activities.

So here is the schedule for this Sunday:

1:00PM Sailboat Fun
2:00PM Full ROW Regatta
3:30PM Learn to Sail

Sailing with regular right of way rules will feel almost exactly like the previous SL right of way races with a few minor differences. You don't need to care much about these if you can avoid running into people and hitting the bouys.

if you want a quick review of the basics, go to this URL for a nice flash presentation courtesy of US SAILING:

http://www.sailingcourse.com/rules_flash.htm


Here are what I think are the most important differences from what we have been doing:

1.) If you are protested, and accept the protest, you do TWO turns (a 720) instead of one 360 degree turn. Yes, fouling people just got more expensive.

2.) If you hit the windward mark or one of the turning buoys, you get to do a 360. Yes, hitting the marks just got more expensive.

3.) If your protest is not accepted on the water, or if you dispute a protest because you think it is bogus, be prepared to write (on a notecard) what happened, and why you think you were right and present this and other evidence to the protest committee. Instead of arguing between the races, you get to explain what happened after ALL the races are over in a form that can be forwarded to a protest committee for consideration. The protest committee will probably ask you some questions, and then they decide.

Part of the reason to write things down is that the protest committee's decision could be appealed to a higher authority. I assume that SLSF will accept sailing under the full ruleset and act as the governing body for SL races, so if you really do not agree with the decision of the protest committee, you could appeal to the governing body (SLSF in our case). This means there is some recourse if you disagree with a race organizer or protest committee and really want to press it. It is very, very unlikely that you will ever appeal a decision, but if you wanted to, there is a way. Just like in RL. Yes, this is more work than arguing between races, so the process of protesting may have just gotten more expensive. You don't want to protest over silly things.

While 720 turns are part of the regular rules. That rule is often modified. I am at work and cannot quote scripture and verse, but I believe in America's Cup racing they do 360s. I KNOW in appedix E for radio controled racing a 360 turn is used.

I believe, but do not know for a fact, that the reason for 720s is that in some RL classes boats turn on a dime and 360s just arent much of a penalty. I submit that the Tako does not turn on a dime and 3.0 will be have even more leeway. I think that a 360 in a tako is sufficent penalty.

As to turns being made due to hitting marks, we are back to the same issue of did the boat "touch" the mark. Also, hitting a mark with anything more than a bare touch in SL stops your boat dead! That should be adequate penalty I would think.

So we decided 15 minutes ago to go to full rules, no boats have hit the water yet. And we are already debating. Why am I not surprised?

Let's have a fair trial of the rules without modifications and see how it goes. That allows us to use the US SAILING flash video un-modified, and seems to be the sense of the community on the forum.

Faykin Odets and I were talking this morning and we are planning on running a regular ROW race series to find out how well unmodified rules really work by actually doing it. The reason for this is that without some real experience, the only thing we have is conjecture and speculation. Faykin and I were planning races at 3 different venues to give the whole RL rule concept a good field test in different conditions. It is premature to start changing things before anyone has tried this.

I suspect that the 720 wil result in people sailing more carefully with fewer fouls and less acrimony on the course. I want to give the rules a chance to find out of this is true.
beg to differ... When you hit the bouy (as you point out), you stop, and therefore it is obvious you hit the bouy. No problem knowing that you hit the bouy in SL. This reminds me of hitting the bouy and snagging the bouy anchor rope in RL with my rudder. That stopped me cold, and I still had to do the 360. Then I was very careful.

Knowing that you take a 360 for hitting the mark, any reasonable sailor will give the buoy some room. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a boat hit a mark during an actual SL race. Mostly that just happens in practice when people are pushing the limits.

If you do not like debate, you could give the un-modified RL right of way rules a fair chance, and gather some real experience. Then you would have some evidence to support your positions. In the meantime, let us try using the rules that work for eveyone else, and see how it goes.

As a one-time dinghy sailor in RL, I'd love to become involved in all this here in SL. I have tried to contact a chap called Mickey Roark of Roark Marine, to enquire about buying one of his dinghies parked in front of my beach, but have had no reply. Is he known to you chaps and can anyone suggest how I might contact him? Has he left SL possibly?

Anima Graff

I'm pretty sure all the Roark boats are on sale at FairChang Island. It's been a while since I've been there, but they certainly used to be.

In addition to our Weekly Regatta at 2PM and Learn to Sail at 3:30PM we are adding the following event to the regular Sunday sailing schedule in Hollywood:

****************
SAILBOAT FUN IN HOLLYWOOD -- 1:00PM

Event description: Join us for some sailboat FUN in the fabulous HOLLYWOOD sim.

Activities on any given Sunday may include:

-- Sailboat Drag Races
Teaches you how to fine tune your sail trim and make fast turns.

-- Sailboat Soccer
A fun team game that helps you quickly learn how th TAKO sailboat manuevers.

-- No ROW (Right of Way) Races
Want to race against others but not yet ready for the challenge our ROW regatta at 2PM? Here's a good place to get some experience.

-- ???
New games are added all the time. Maybe you want to make one up.

The games use the TAKO sailboat (available for $1L at the marina. Buy the RACING VERSION). Basic knowledge of sailing is a plus but you are welcome to learn as you play.

***********************

Also, please note that we will be using the full ISF "Racing Rules of Sailing" in our weekly regattas now. Today we return to the LONG COURSE, with a minor tweak (no gate at windward mark). The event has been expanded to 90 minutes. Learn to Sail has been bumped back to 3:30PM.

And there is a 2000L prize to the skipper that has the best finish among those that have not won a regatta or the 2000L prize in the past. If your name is NOT on this list, you are eligible to win the prize: Kanker Greenacre, Oliphant Ming, Eloise Pasteur, MarkTwain White, Pixeleen Mistral, Faykin Odets, Nber Medici.

I missed the first race due to RL commitments, but it as far as I could tell the 2nd two races in Hollywood under the complete rulebook seems to work out very well, and we had an example of how the protest process can work. I am sad to say that the foul that made this example possible cost me 2 places in the last race, but it does illustrate how to handle these conflicts. There is a drama-free way to sort these issues out.

Since my protest was not accepted by Helen during the race, I decided to write it up and present it to the protest committee (which the race organizer drafted). Of course, as one of the people directly involved in the protest, I could not be on the protest committee. When I was fouled by Helen, I took a snapshot of the scene after the collision. I also kept my chat log, and used these two items as evidence. I then wrote up my explanation of what happened, and presented all three items to the committee. Helen did not choose to present her side of the case, but she could have, using the same "write it up, give it to the committee, answer any questions they have" approach. The committee ruled that Helen violated the port/starboard rule, and she recieved a disqualification for the 3rd race. Note that all this happend AFTER the post race festivities, so only a few people had to be involved.

Old timers are now laughing, since I once took Kanker out two times in some non-right of way practice sessions to make the point that we need rules. In any case, I'm happy that we have gotten to the point of adopting complete rules and better race management processes to maximize the fun part of racing for those that choose to sail right of way races.

I think MarkTwain may be creating an example protest show-and-tell for hollywood. In any case, here is how to write up a protest... and at this point I have not lost a single SL protest hearing yet, so I am the best SL example to follow

One other thing: telling me "oh p youself" during a race is a good way to make sure I WILL follow up on the protest.


=-=-=-=-=-=-

protest of Helen by Pixeleen.

I was sailing upwind on starboard tack
Helen was sailing downwind on a broad reach on port
I hailed repeatedly
Helen turned into my boat
I could not avoid a collission because I was right next to the land by the yacht club
When Helen collided with me, I protested her (see transcript below)
She told me to "oh p yourself" which I assume means she did not accept the protest.

The collision completely stopepd my boat and cost me at least two places in the race.

So, although Helen's position in the regatta may not have been affected, mine was, and I believe that her finish for this race should be a DSQ (disqualified).

------chat transcript------
Chase Speculaas: raise
Faykin Odets: sheet 90
Faykin Odets: sheet -45
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: STARBOARD! you have no rights!!!
You: p Helen
Helen Dayton: oh p yourself
Chase Speculaas: sheet -1
Chase Speculaas: sheet 90
Chase Speculaas: sheet -71
Faykin Odets: sheet 5
You: sheet -1
You: sheet 1
You: sheet 90
You: sheet -70
You: sheet -1
MarkTwain White: sheet 90
MarkTwain White: sheet -45
Faykin Odets shouts: good job Mark
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC shouts: #3: MarkTwain White! Race time: +00:09:56
SLSF Race Start Line - SYC shouts: #4: Pixeleen Mistral! Race time: +00:10:00
Faykin Odets shouts: nice run pix
You: moor
Flying Tako 2.1 Racing #23: Mooring.
Flying Tako 2.1 Racing #23: Lowering mainsail.
Flying Tako 2.1 Racing #23: Ready.
Chase Speculaas: yep, pix is gonna be pretty pissed...
MarkTwain White: who is stil out
You: nope
Samantha Canetti: helen I think
You: but I am filing a protest
------