Myself, I have nothing but respect for the people talented enough to make real money from SL. Whether it be clothes, vehicles or even running a club, it takes hard work.
On the other hand, I have little respect for the land barons. They provide nothing except higher land prices.
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"Those who use SL for income deserve what they get"-Do you share this attitude? |
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Jellin Pico
Grumpy Oldbie
Join date: 3 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,037
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07-20-2005 09:55
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 It's Official! Jellin, you are soooooo FIC! Fabulous, Intelligent and Cute |
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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07-20-2005 09:58
On the other hand, I have little respect for the land barons. They provide nothing except higher land prices. That is not true anymore. LL has made it so that if anyone wants a parcel smaller than a sim, you will require the services of a land baron. _____________________
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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07-20-2005 09:58
Turn it around and look at it again.
I'm not a major content creator in SL. I sell nothing. I do some building when I can, and I'm happy that I'm good at it. SL is a place where I can grab an hour or two occasionally to relax, explore, visit, and create some things. Why? Because I'm a content creator in real life, and I often work 80 hours a week, and sometimes more. Imagine how I feel when (a) I'm told by major content creators that since I do not create a lot of content in SL, my opinion doesn't count, I can't have any influence, and I should shut the fuck up; and (b) I see some of my RL content (yes, mine, as in individually, as part of a team, and as a corporate holder) imported and copied inworld and sold by others. I'm not making it up. Both have happened to me. And to others. I think it's fine that people are making incomes in SL. Personally, I'm very tolerant of trademark and copyright infringement, as well as the questionable ethics of copying styles, images, etc., because virtual worlds and virtual economies are very new, and the entrepreneurs are individuals who do not have inworld corporate resources and should not be held entirely to RL standards. Yet. And I think that virtual entrepreneurialism and production will soon become a respectable factor in various economic networks. That said, you can't have it both ways. You can't demand respect inworld for your content, and not respect those who are in SL for entirely different reasons - and may, in fact, be a source for your SL commodities and inspirations. You can't call someone else's RL content entirely (notice that word, "entirely"  your own, simply because you copied it and brought it inworld. You can't call for the integration of SL and RL economic paradigms, and not be prepared to break up the cloistered environment of content creation in SL. You can't scream about one law or ethical standard being broken while conveniently ignoring others. You can't ask for respect without giving some in return, i.e., you can't tell people to shut the fuck up just because you don't see their pixellated clothing on SLExchange or in somebody's mall. I guarantee you've seen their products in real retail outlets, and I guarantee you can find copies of their work in SL. SL has wonderful potential, and it frustrates the hell out of me sometimes because of that. I wish I had more time to put into it. My best wishes to all of you. Sincerely. btw, Ellie, nearly everybody on this thread has called SL "a game" when it's been convenient. For example, when it comes to income or exploits, SL is not a game. When it comes to player-run government or other unpopular notions of a virtual world order, it's very definitely a game. Unfortunately, the whole "game or not" question has become so transparently a matter of self-interest that it's lost all credibility. |
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Online Doesburg
absurd hero
Join date: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 53
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not stupid at all
07-20-2005 09:59
I don't think it's stupid at all to trade SL money to RL money. The only reason people are able to do that is because there are other (apparently lots of) people out there willing to spend real money to buy virtual money, otherwise the whole thing wouldn't work! Having said that, I would personally be very careful about investing real money into SL, simply because it's not real. At the very least I would always treat such money as 'gone' - it has no real value anymore and there is absolutely no guaranty that you get anything back for it. Personally, I'm just waiting for the day the SL economy blows up. I think it's bound to. But that's a different topic, and I might be very wrong! The same is true for time spend on creating content - do it because you enjoy doing it (I do) not because you expect RL returns.
On the intellectual property/theft issue: Ones ideas are ones ideas, and nobody should steal them, whether for real or virtual profit! Just to quote from the TOS: 6.4 Second Life Currency. You acknowledge that the Second Life service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency. You agree that Linden has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and that Linden will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right. Just to retiterate my main point: it would be stupid NOT to cash out L$! |
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Blayze Raine
Renegade
Join date: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 407
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07-20-2005 10:01
I think there is a definite discrepancy between the subject of the thread and the overall views in it.
The fact that people can make money off of the game to SUBSIDIZE income vs. rely on it is two different things. People that use it to pay for extras, cover their teir, take vacations, buy extra things...hey thats all well and good. If you are relying on it to pay your rent, pay your electric, be your MAIN source of income...thats EXTREMELY risky. As Eboni said, your income would be depend a product that LL won't put a guarantee on. If there is an outage for a week or a major problem, thats lost money for you. Granted there are a lot of jobs that are like that too, but in the case of lost wage from a "real" job, there are ways to still survive, ie. unemployment and such. So is this more of an argument of people that subsidize their income from SL or survive from it? |
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Roseann Flora
/wrist
Join date: 7 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,058
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07-20-2005 10:07
I don't generally post much in the forums but I read them every day. I've been in SL now for over two years and over time I've built a business. I began that business to create clothing for fun and to pay taxes (yes I'm old). It wasn't until much later that I decided to dip my hand in trading for real cash. I had been layed off from my job and was very frustrated trying to find work with decent hours and pay (less than a 12 hour shift and more than minimum wage). I don't have a degree and ever since the first day I quit college because I had to work two jobs to survive, I've regretted it. I began to see that perhaps Second Life could be a part time income and help with money for school. Not once have I ever thought this would be permanent, nor do I hold Second Life responsible for making sure I pay my rent every month. For many of us that create and work in SL, making an income from it is a dream come true. How many people can honestly say they're getting paid to do what they love? I believe I can safely say that most of us using SL for income know well that it could stop at any time and have a plan if that happens. I would be thankful for the time I was able to do this and move on. Now that being said, I want to address the many comments I see every day on the forums about using SL for income. I have seen people say things like "using SL for income is stupid and irresponsible", "those who use SL for income deserve what they get" (pertaining to exploits or theft of intellectual property), "come on it's play money people, I'll be glad when we go back to the worthless L$! ", etc. While I agree that not keeping a reality check handy when turning virtual money into real money isn't smart, I do NOT agree that the act itself is stupid or irresponsible. I think the fact that I'm not stuck in morning traffic or listening to my supervisor scream until the vein in their head pops out because I'm using my talents to earn money is pretty damn smart. I understand that since trading began we've had a growth of cutthroats, thugs, and immoral idiots invade our community. *Maybe* if trading was no longer an option you'd see a big change in behavior but people like that will always find something to do to get under your skin. As for those with the attitude that people who earn real money from their work in Second Life "deserve what they get" or "it's just a game so who cares if I steal your work!", you're shouting to everyone how ignorant and jealous you are. I don't care if it's "a game", if someone sits at their computer for hours a day working hard to create something for YOU to make YOUR game more enjoyable, you're damned right they should be upset if that work is stolen. Just because the work produces something virtual doesn't make it have "less value" to the creator or those who's gameplay is enriched because of it. I put just as much time and effort into taking the idea for an outfit and creating it in photoshop as I would if I sat down at the sewing machine and created one from a pattern. I bet when you're playing World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Everquest 2, etc, you're not sitting there thinking, "The person who created this virtual armor I played 2 weeks straight to get my hands on is an idiot!". That *idiot* is skipping off to the bank to check on all that nice money they earned from their job creating virtual items for a virtual world while you sweat the hours away getting to that next level. Of course when I say "you're" I'm not meaning this as a personal attack but an example of my point. The difference with SL is that we haven't been hired by LL to create content for players. We took it upon ourselves to create and add to this world and in the process found a way to be financially compensated, even if for a short while. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and again I'm not trying to attack anyone with this post. I just feel that lumping creators who use SL as a form of income into one big group of "irresponsible idiots who deserve to be flamed" is wrong. So yeah, I'll step off the soap box now  YAY ..thank you for saying what I have been thinking!!...great post Torrid _____________________
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Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
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07-20-2005 10:10
I think there is a definite discrepancy between the subject of the thread and the overall views in it. The fact that people can make money off of the game to SUBSIDIZE income vs. rely on it is two different things. People that use it to pay for extras, cover their teir, take vacations, buy extra things...hey thats all well and good. If you are relying on it to pay your rent, pay your electric, be your MAIN source of income...thats EXTREMELY risky. As Eboni said, your income would be depend a product that LL won't put a guarantee on. If there is an outage for a week or a major problem, thats lost money for you. Granted there are a lot of jobs that are like that too, but in the case of lost wage from a "real" job, there are ways to still survive, ie. unemployment and such. So is this more of an argument of people that subsidize their income from SL or survive from it? Having said that, I hesitate to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do. I've learned in my two-plus years here that SL can be many things to many people, and there's no one right or wrong way to do it. Good for you if you can make RL money from L$'s in SL. I am constantly impressed by how much ingenuity SL residents put into the items they create. _____________________
Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre
Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 |
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Pol Tabla
synthpop saint
Join date: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,041
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07-20-2005 10:19
Strange that none of the "its only a game, don't be so silly" people have shown up here. Reassuring in fact. Maybe they're only trolling and turn away from the cold light of rational discussion. Actually, I am one of those "it's only a game" type people, though I probably wouldn't go as far as to call anyone silly for thinking otherwise. As someone who makes a living doing design and production work for the Web, the idea of making money from activities in a virtual game isn't that strange to me. And I do buy plenty of stuff in SL, so I have no problem with compensating creators, event holders, etc. for their work. The Land and Economy forum is testament to the fact that LL considers the commercial aspects of SL integral to the game. However, as I play SL for fun, I do have issues with the financial aspects of SL culture. For instance, I think land barony has made (for the average user) the acquisition of land significantly less enjoyable. I also think that there are many businesspeople who complain, loudly and venomously, every time LL makes even a minor change to SL, because inevitably it will have an impact on somebody's bottom line. There's an attitude that if it fucks with the economy, it shouldn't be done, even if it may well be for the betterment of SL as a whole. I don't want to tar every SL businessperson with the same brush. Many of you go about your business in an efficient and friendly manner. But gosh, a lot of you with money on the line are really whiny, when the reality is that LL never promised us 99% uptime or an enterprise-level e-commerce system. Everything about this experience is experimental. I certainly don't wish for anything bad to happen to anyone in SL, but when adversity does strike, why is it such a surprise? Why haven't you made contingency plans for something that is going to predictably happen to you over and over again? And why must we consider your needs above all others? _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-20-2005 10:47
your income would be depend a product that LL won't put a guarantee on. If there is an outage for a week or a major problem, thats lost money for you. Granted there are a lot of jobs that are like that too, but in the case of lost wage from a "real" job, there are ways to still survive, ie. unemployment and such. It's not any different than the situation any freelance artist faces. If I lose a contract I can't go file for unemployment. Millions of people make their living the same way I do, with the same risks involved. In my experience people don't generally give freelance artists lectures about how risky their career choice is, so why is SL somehow different? _____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Pol Tabla
synthpop saint
Join date: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,041
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07-20-2005 10:52
It's not any different than the situation any freelance artist faces. If I lose a contract I can't go file for unemployment. Millions of people make their living the same way I do, with the same risks involved. In my experience people don't generally give freelance artists lectures about how risky their career choice is, so why is SL somehow different? You have to concede that there is a discrepancy in the level of risk involved, no? Freelancing in an established industry vs. a career in a small-market virtual world? Edit: I mean, there isn't even such a thing as a "contract" in SL, in any meaningful sense. _____________________
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Trifen Fairplay
Officially Unofficial
Join date: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 321
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07-20-2005 10:52
SL is a multifaceted enviroment, which allowd a plethora of buisnesses to strive. I am all for success on any level. It is good to hear that people make money in SL and that some even use it as their income. I applaud anyone able to do so and hold them in high regard.
There are certain facts though, that are unavoidable when dealing with money. Money makes people do strange things. In SL it has caused extortion, exploitation, theft, fraud, abuse,... and the list goes on. These things are a part of SL, leaching away from what it once was. It has corrupted the very essence of community within SL. The mind set of the past was about help, support, growing SL, spreading the word, build, script, enjoy. Today, the mindset of most old users, and many new ones is "CASH" "PROFIT" how can I get paid? what does that = in US$? I feel it has twisted most our perceptions away from a fun care free "game", and changed us into $$ driven zombies. This has resulted in regression. Scripts are keept in pocket, for fear of loosing sales preventing it from growing beyond itself into a magnificent butterfly for the world to enjoy. Ideas are written into a little black book, and never spoken a word of, for fear of someone stealing the idea and selling it / undecutting your price. Spectacular builds / entertainment attractions, are shut down because the owner isnt makeing the profit they planned. Groups dealing with money consist of one person, because you cant trust anyone enough to not rob you blind while your not online. 10 new users quit because everything they buy is misrepresented, or they were financially taken advantage of by someone more knowledgable. I am in no way saying or implying that users who make SL a buisness cause this. Simply, money changes things drastically. It causes greed and coruption which handicaps SLs player driven growth. But such is life, we cant avoid these issues. All we can do is be aware and do what we can to not be turned to the dark side! *Disclaimer* Dont get me wrong- money and profit also have positive influences, I just hate to see good people run off from all the negativity they experience caused by the $. _____________________
Shops for rent, search for the Fairplay Shop Network in the find menu.
Most shops only 1.5$L per prim! Come visit Fairplay Community Center location in my picks.(still under construction) |
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Misty Rhodes
SL Muse
Join date: 5 Aug 2003
Posts: 312
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I totally agree with u Torrid...
07-20-2005 10:56
Anyone with the talent and the know how should get what they can out of the hours spent in PhotoShop or scripting or whatever it is that generates an income for them.
I, having been here almost two years, was a late bloomer but I too was out of work and struggled for more than a year. I could not earn a living in sl that crossed over to my rl but I applaud those that have and do. _____________________
Kris Ritter on LL & Misty's Inventory: "what does the red bulb mean?" ... "it means Misty just opened her inventory & the rest of the grid is going down to about 50% capacity. We just need to ask the SF power grid to pump us another 50,000,000 megawatts & we'll be fine."
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-20-2005 10:57
You have to concede that there is a discrepancy in the level of risk involved, no? Freelancing in an established industry vs. a career in a small-market virtual world? Nope, not really. My SL products continue to sell at a steady and fairly predictable rate. I can't say the same about how and when I win a bid on a contract or how reliable a new client will be about paying in a timely manner. In two years in SL I've never had the service suddenly shut down or had a product I sell suddenly become worthless. In ten years as a freelance artist I've had clients renig on contracts several times. I'm a little guy so it's generally not worth the cost to try and sue for damages when a corporation decides to stiff me. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Baccara Rhodes
Social Doyenne
Join date: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 627
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Bravo to Torrid
07-20-2005 11:07
On so many levels...
There are so many players in this experience who have been battered about for so long that I am truly sick of it. From content creators who have taken time from their lives for the past two years to make this an amazing place to be, (and giving so much out for free in the early days) to the people who run events like myself whether for profit or community service to the scriptors and texture mavens and so many more... This is a joint effort folks. We are here to make a world, and hopefully one ostensibly better than the world we are so horrified by much of the time. There is NOTHING wrong with profiting from it if done in an honest and hard working way. What is wrong is having to look behind your back all the time to make sure that someone isn't either stealing from you or stabbing you in that virtual back. I can't imagine a nice group of folks than those who have been branded with more obnoxious names by a few "sour grapes" citizens of Second Life. They have been here without break from the early days, always looking to help, creating incredible work, giving away tons of items and YES, earning some money for their trouble. Why not? Are they supposed to just create for everyone else's fun? I doubt anyone who works at Linden Lab does so on a volunteer basis, and they wouldn't expect to nor disagree with any of us. So Torrid, keep up the good work. Your prices are more than fair, you are charming and accomodating and a terrific addition to a wonderful world... I hope that this at least helps you pay your bills. It's an honor to know you (and wear your clothes of course) as well as so many of the other content wizards of Second Life. _____________________
DEPOZ Depoz E, W, Celebrations & Specialties ! Define YOUR Space We have it ALL for you... |
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Pol Tabla
synthpop saint
Join date: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,041
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07-20-2005 11:08
Nope, not really. My SL products continue to sell at a steady and fairly predictable rate. I can't say the same about how and when I win a bid on a contract or how reliable a new client will be about paying in a timely manner. Fair enough. Suffice to say my experience is the opposite of yours as far as the freelance world is concerned. Software tools and demand are tricky things to predict. Certainly I would much rather depend on, say, Macromedia Flash to make my living, rather than Linden Lab's Second Life. Particularly given a timeframe of 5 to 10 years from now. _____________________
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
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07-20-2005 11:10
Apparently, even the Bible is torn on this one:
(Money is the answer to all of life's problems) Ecclesiastes 10:19 "A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things." (Money is the source of all evil) 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil." _____________________
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The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world. |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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07-20-2005 11:11
Apparently, even the Bible is torn on this one: (Money is the answer to all of life's problems) Ecclesiastes 10:19 "A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things." (Money is the source of all evil) 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil." Ecclesiastes was a land baron and money trader. Timothy was one of those tree hugging anti capitalists who wanted everything to be open source. _____________________
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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07-20-2005 11:12
It's not any different than the situation any freelance artist faces. If I lose a contract I can't go file for unemployment. Millions of people make their living the same way I do, with the same risks involved. In my experience people don't generally give freelance artists lectures about how risky their career choice is, so why is SL somehow different? When I Freelance IT consulting, clients are required to sign contracts and everything is enforcable in a court of law. It is risky, but if someone screws me over I can sued them (and have), and they are required to pay me under the law. As the past with GOM and IGE has proven, your Lindens have no value and are not protected under the law. My RL cash has value as long as the US government holds out. _____________________
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
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07-20-2005 11:14
Ecclesiastes was a land baron and money trader. Timothy was one of those tree hugging anti capitalists who wanted everything to be open source. LOL! _____________________
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The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world. |
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Huns Valen
Don't PM me here.
Join date: 3 May 2003
Posts: 2,749
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07-20-2005 11:19
I think some of the people who say that such-and-such a group "deserves" to get screwed are pretty much just talking BS about something they haven't spent any time really thinking about. This is pretty much just idle chit-chat, the sort that goes on all the time, and I don't assign much importance to it. It's just random noise.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-20-2005 11:24
Fair enough. Suffice to say my experience is the opposite of yours as far as the freelance world is concerned. Software tools and demand are tricky things to predict. Certainly I would much rather depend on, say, Macromedia Flash to make my living, rather than Linden Lab's Second Life. Particularly given a timeframe of 5 to 10 years from now. Skills used in SL are applicable to other things. That's why I'm here in the first place. I knew I could put my existing skills to good use here. I make my living with 3ds Max and Photoshop (and assorted other tools). SL is just one venue. I can apply my skills wherever there's an opportunity to profit from them. SL just happens to be one of them. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-20-2005 11:28
When I Freelance IT consulting, clients are required to sign contracts and everything is enforcable in a court of law. It is risky, but if someone screws me over I can sued them (and have), and they are required to pay me under the law. As the past with GOM and IGE has proven, your Lindens have no value and are not protected under the law. My RL cash has value as long as the US government holds out. I've been involved in one suit with a company I was subcontracting for that got screwed by their client. The client ended up settling for pennies on the dollar. It wasn't worth the effort. I now protect myself by demanding 50% down before I'll lift a finger for a new client. My Lindens have a very definite value the moment I cash them out, which I do monthly. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Lum Kuhr
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 93
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07-20-2005 11:35
I just play SL as a social game and occasional creative outlet, I prefer to build my own avatars and items rather than buy then, and will probably copy most of them for free in the unlikely event of one of them being good enough that someone might want one. The money aspect of the game does slightly irk me (coming from a background of MUCKs where pretty much everything was done for free) but I can see why it's needed, if only to prevent users from sapping up infinite amounts of disk space!
If people can sell stuff and make RL money from it, more power to them, OTOH I think relying on it is a bad idea, for a few reasons. 1) LL could vanish tomorrow without warning. If your company is going under there are generally signs, and there are laws meaning they have to give you notice before sacking you or laying you off. There is no such notice period here, some script kiddies could DDoS SL off the face of the internet, LL could get forcibly shutdown by a lawsuit for no real reason, you just don't know. 2) There is not a single electronic item or service that cannot be copied given enough time. Major software vendors build the cost of piracy into their prices, some even rely upon it to establish themselves in new markets. I have seen small (usually individual) software producers go off on one when their product becomes popular enough that a crack is released. It shouldn't happen, but it does and it will. 3) There are people like me out there that will open source stuff, if one of them comes up with a product of equivalent quality, you'll have a hard job competing without spending lots of money and time on marketing. I don't know many artists or programmers that are good at marketing. 4) I doubt you could get any kind of insurance policy that would cover SL related disasters, wheras you can get insurance against loss of job, terrorism insurance, hell in the UK you can now even get insurance against being banned from driving! So if you're using it to suppliment your income and buy a few luxuries then all is well and good, but if you're relying on it that is a bad thing, and if you have dependents (eg. children) then it's a very bad thing! Do they deserve what they get if it all goes horribly wrong? probably not, but they should have expected it. All IMO of course. |
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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07-20-2005 11:36
I've been involved in one suit with a company I was subcontracting for that got screwed by their client. The client ended up settling for pennies on the dollar. It wasn't worth the effort. I now protect myself by demanding 50% down before I'll lift a finger for a new client. My Lindens have a very definite value the moment I cash them out, which I do monthly. Lindens have a value only if people want to buy them, only if the exchange rate stays high, only if SL stays open, only if IGE and GOM keep buying and selling them, only if people can access SL enough to trade, etc etc. A lot of variables. You don't know what the value of the Linden will be tomorrow or next week, you can only hope. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-20-2005 11:40
Lindens have a value only if people want to buy them, only if the exchange rate stays high, only if SL stays open, only if IGE and GOM keep buying and selling them, only if people can access SL enough to trade, etc etc. A lot of variables. You don't know what the value of the Linden will be tomorrow or next week, you can only hope. And that's different than doing freelance work how exactly? Everything in life is full of variables and nothing is guaranteed. The client I'm doing work for today might be out of business tomorrow. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |