"Those who use SL for income deserve what they get"-Do you share this attitude?

I don't generally post much in the forums but I read them every day. I've been in SL now for over two years and over time I've built a business. I began that business to create clothing for fun and to pay taxes (yes I'm old). It wasn't until much later that I decided to dip my hand in trading for real cash. I had been layed off from my job and was very frustrated trying to find work with decent hours and pay (less than a 12 hour shift and more than minimum wage). I don't have a degree and ever since the first day I quit college because I had to work two jobs to survive, I've regretted it. I began to see that perhaps Second Life could be a part time income and help with money for school.

Not once have I ever thought this would be permanent, nor do I hold Second Life responsible for making sure I pay my rent every month. For many of us that create and work in SL, making an income from it is a dream come true. How many people can honestly say they're getting paid to do what they love? I believe I can safely say that most of us using SL for income know well that it could stop at any time and have a plan if that happens. I would be thankful for the time I was able to do this and move on.

Now that being said, I want to address the many comments I see every day on the forums about using SL for income. I have seen people say things like "using SL for income is stupid and irresponsible", "those who use SL for income deserve what they get" (pertaining to exploits or theft of intellectual property), "come on it's play money people, I'll be glad when we go back to the worthless L$! ", etc.

While I agree that not keeping a reality check handy when turning virtual money into real money isn't smart, I do NOT agree that the act itself is stupid or irresponsible. I think the fact that I'm not stuck in morning traffic or listening to my supervisor scream until the vein in their head pops out because I'm using my talents to earn money is pretty damn smart. I understand that since trading began we've had a growth of cutthroats, thugs, and immoral idiots invade our community. *Maybe* if trading was no longer an option you'd see a big change in behavior but people like that will always find something to do to get under your skin. As for those with the attitude that people who earn real money from their work in Second Life "deserve what they get" or "it's just a game so who cares if I steal your work!", you're shouting to everyone how ignorant and jealous you are.

I don't care if it's "a game", if someone sits at their computer for hours a day working hard to create something for YOU to make YOUR game more enjoyable, you're damned right they should be upset if that work is stolen. Just because the work produces something virtual doesn't make it have "less value" to the creator or those who's gameplay is enriched because of it. I put just as much time and effort into taking the idea for an outfit and creating it in photoshop as I would if I sat down at the sewing machine and created one from a pattern.

I bet when you're playing World of Warcraft, City of Heroes, Everquest 2, etc, you're not sitting there thinking, "The person who created this virtual armor I played 2 weeks straight to get my hands on is an idiot!". That *idiot* is skipping off to the bank to check on all that nice money they earned from their job creating virtual items for a virtual world while you sweat the hours away getting to that next level. Of course when I say "you're" I'm not meaning this as a personal attack but an example of my point. The difference with SL is that we haven't been hired by LL to create content for players. We took it upon ourselves to create and add to this world and in the process found a way to be financially compensated, even if for a short while.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and again I'm not trying to attack anyone with this post. I just feel that lumping creators who use SL as a form of income into one big group of "irresponsible idiots who deserve to be flamed" is wrong.

So yeah, I'll step off the soap box now

I find it admirable. Content creators who rely on their SL income take a big risk that many of us are unwilling to. I would liken it in some respects to running your own small business.

In addition, I think many of the content creators who do rely on this income are some of the best in SL, probably because they absolutely must stay competitive. It's an added motivation to make great things!

*wild applause* Extremely well said, Torrid. I couldn't agree more. I don't understand that attitude at all. I think anyone who can apply their talents to help put food on the table doing something they love instead of lining the pockets of some multinational greed factory deserves to be applauded. Should regular salaried game developers not be paid because they create art assets for virtual spaces? No source of income is guaranteed. People earning all their money from a traditional job are just as vulnerable. The company you work for could lay you off tomorrow or close.

I personally don't see anything wrong with using SL for income. I don't rely on it for any income from a need perspective, but I regularly cash out and reinvest my earnings in SLuniverse and Snapzilla, which is a very expensive site to operate. I think a certain negativity has come into SL because of the money factor, but such is life. I find myself equating expenses in L$ with RL money, and that is a bad thing at times because it has taken some of the fun out of it (example, 'hell no I am not going to buy that! that is the equivalent of $200 USD!), where in the past I didn't really care or think like that.

A close friend of mine made one of the comments about the irresponsibility of relying on SL for income, and I had a long discussion with her about it to clarify because I disagreed. It is not so much irresponsibility, but more to the point of being dangerous to rely on something as volatile and intangible as SL (our stuff has no value according to the TOS, and honestly, if SL shut down, all the stuff you have made would be worthless to a large degree). I love the fact that someone can pay their rent, or eat, because of SL - I have actually given people money to be able to cash out and do that very thing.

I just think that the efforts spent to keep an ongoing income in SL may be a hinderance to finding more stable and secure sources of income, and that would definitely be a bad thing. I think we are entering a very uncertain time in SL - the new land market changes, combined with the severity of the recent security flaw and the damage it has caused does not bode well for the stability of the market over the next few months. That is a scary prospect if you rely on the value of the L$ to stay steady in order to be able to pay your bills.

That said, I don't think that anyone in SL has a responsibility to treat SL as a sacred source of income for someone. Just because one person is using it to pay their rent does not mean anyone is under any obligation to consider SL anything than a fun diversion with play money. It's kind of a weird dynamic, but then SL has always had its share of weird dynamics. In the end, people should just stop worrying so much about what someone else is doing, or what someone else thinks. If someone else thinks you're a fool for paying rent from your SL earnings, so what?

The same is true for any job. If you lose your job, what do you have of value to walk away with aside from a line on your resume? I've been self employed for the past ten years. I'm accustomed to the risk. In the past decade I've watched most of my friends lose their job and benefits at least once.

I started designing when I was laid off from my job and had managed to finally finish my Bachlor's degree. Seeing as I had all of this free time I needed something to quell the waves of boredom. Also, Flipper had been urging me for months to start designing since I have a background in the arts and was good at Photoshop. He knew I would be good at it. Of course, I procrastinated for quite some time until I finally got around to figuring it out. I didn't start cashing out my Linden dollars until late last summer. I figured it couldn't hurt bringing in some extra cash while I was unemployed. Even when I got a job it was and still is only part-time. I may go full-time at some point in time in the near future. In the interim of unemployment and working part-time at a non-profit bringing in the extra cash was a nice perk of designing.

I think the thing I enjoy the most about Second Life is that it is all user created content. Its not a world filled with stuff that one entity or one group of entities designs, builds or make. You want it - you can make it or have it made for you. The possibilities are limitless. So, I do find it somewhat annoying when people throw around the "its just a game", "its stupid to have SL be a form of income" etc. But then again these are probably the same people who 10 years ago were saying "the internet is stupid" "how can you make money from a virtual business" etc. Just as the internet was the future and changed the world since its inception, I feel that Second Life is the next wave of the future. I guess my views on Second Life are not marred by having played other internet games. I've never been a "gamer" and I have utterly NO interest in games like MXO, CoH & WoW. They have their audience of which I am not part of - they also have a shelf life at which point once you master the game why hang around? Since, the end game of Second Life is what you make of it and given the diversity of ages of the players, I can't say that one would outgrow Second Life when they turn X age because we have quite a few players that defy that logic.

If everyone knew the amount of time that designers, builders & scripters put into their work I think there would be more appreciation of the craft and compensation involved.

Great post.

I think everyone in Second Life is entitled to live/work/play however they want as long as it falls within the rules, and preferably isnt done to someone elses detriment (though that is in the rules it doesnt seem to get enforced) and one of the things that pisses me off the most is that there are always people belittling your efforts, sneering at your opinions and ridiculing your personal thoughts on 'what second life is', and even more people wanting to dictate to you how it could be played. Usually due to extreme selfishness - "I want this, I deserve this, it would benefit me, fuck what anyone else wants". If you don't agree, you're often told to "go buy a private island and lock yourself away" or something, like you should be expelled for wanting something different from SL than they do. It makes me want to crack skulls. Truly.

Whilst I often pipe up to say 'It's just a game!' - usually just trolling - it's not for me or anyone else to decide what your Second Life means to you - our Second Lives are just as personal an experience as our first.

I think of it as a game because I don't have any ties or commitments here, I can press CTRL+Q any time and not have to come back for a month. I also think of it as a game because for me its such a frustrating, buggy experience that it's virtually impossible to get immersed in it.

But those of you who live your second life more than your first, to those of you that use it as a main or secondary source of income, and those of you who come here to party virtually rather than go to a real club with your friends... who are we to presume to tell you what you should or shouldnt do or deride you for it?

Actually I very much admire the people who can and do make their livings from their own unique and original talents in Second Life. I see them as pioneers, really. So they're bound to come in for some stick from others, I suppose. I guess a number of years back when people started saying "I'm going to close my store and sell exclusively online!" and stuff, that they were met with the same sort of reactions.

Of course it is true with any job, and there is a lot from SL that you could apply to other environments (Photoshop skills/3d modelling and animation). As I said, I don't find anything wrong with using SL for profit - I have a tremendous amount of inworld content. I am also self employed - I own my own company, and am aware of the risks. It is simply up to the individual to decide the risk/reward ratio they are comfortable with.

You or I do not rely on SL as our sole sources of income either - I believe as you put it, it pays for your sushi and prime rib habit, and for me, it pays my tier and my web site. The amount of effort required to have a sustainable income to live off of from SL I do think would be very risky, in comparison to the same effort in other environments - but there are all kinds of factors that affect people's ability to find work.

It is one thing to use it to supplement your income, it is another when it is your only source of income - I hope for anyone's sake that they don't have to go through that for long, because SL is still not strong enough to sustain that for very many people and someone could end up in a very precarious position if relying solely on SL. I admire anyone who is able to get what they need from SL though - I think it is amazing that can happen at all.

Ditto - what I quoted about sums up my thoughts on the subject, although Kris is much better at being blunt than I am

I have great admiration for anyone who has the skill and patience to make clothes etc. My rl hubby is a wonderful builder in SL but watching him spend hours in Photoshop creating textures makes my eyes bleed. I wish I had more than a 20 second attention span for learning Photoshop but I don't. lol

It's up to each individual what they make of their Second Life, and if creators have the time, talent and patience to do it, then they shouldn't be sneered at for making a few rl $ from it imo.

lol !!!111 SL is jst a game d00d liten up0rz lol lol olo1111!


Just playing devils advocate for the other side. Great post Torrid.

Nice to see you Torrid.

Agreed - lumping isn't helpful.

I share the attitude that Torrid's voice is *smokin*.

And if you create, you deserve to benefit from it, and I am pleased when I see people get compensated for their work, even Aimee or Ingrid.

I never quite got the notion that all bets are off because it's "just a game." Yes, it's a game, but it's also a context to earn money. While the newness of online worlds may make them, for now, more vulnerable to theft than real world settings, that doesn't mean anyone deserves to get ripped off.

I know you don't personally feel that way, Cris. I was just responding to your friend's thoughts on the subject. In reality, SL pays for far more than my sushi and prime rib habit, but I tend to downplay my earnings most of the time since it helps avoid the kind of backlash Torrid is posting about. I used to supplement my income by teaching animation classes. Any scheduled class would have maybe a 50% chance of running because it required a certain number of people to sign up or it would be cancelled. I did that for eight years until the department I taught in was closed. The money I earn in a year from SL is more than I made from teaching, and it came along at just the right time to replace that as my secondary income.

I think whether or not SL can be a sole source of income depends largely on a person's expenses. I don't make enough to cover a mortgage, car payment, health insurance, untilities, food, and entertainment each month. If I did make that much I wouldn't feel it was any riskier than any of the other freelance work I do... and in some ways I might even consider it less risky. There's something very comforting about making a product that continues to sell rather than doing a job on contract where it's a one shot deal without any residual benefits except something new to add to my portfolio.

I have a couple of friends who are potters. They spend most of their year creating new pieces. Some they sell by having their work in consignment shops. Some of it they sell by renting space at art fairs a few times a year. I look at what I do in SL as being pretty much the same thing, except the art fair I sell at is virtual and it runs all year.

You mean I can cash L$ in for real money????

i personally agree with some here, i am in SL since one year and it was just play money, since a few months i took the deicison to pay my studies with it, it makes stuff very different suddently ...

Television is a virtual medium. So is radio. Yet no one questions the validity of a television producer's job or the news anchor's well-paid gig on the local channel. Howard Stern is a radio talk show host, so why does no one tell him to "get a real job"? What does he really provide? There was a time when people balked at the concept of an athlete earning a decent salary, let alone the millions they make today. After all, those are "just games" too. The same is true of many professions. They provide little tangible benefit to the consumer and as such are all in their own way "virtual".

The truth is, virtual world product is closer to real world product than most people realize (and I say that as someone who develops real world products). When someone says "It's just a game", I realize that they likely don't understand the world of real product development. If they did, they might stop and reconsider their position.

When someone says "They deserve what's coming to them and are irresponsible for depending on Second Life for their income", I think the same thing when I look at all the people on television lamenting over the latest court case that allows a corporation to dump pension plan promises and force former employees back into the workforce after retiring. And anyone who depends on anyone else for their livelihood is equally "irresponsible" by all the things I see today.

Leveling charges of irresponsibility seems to me to be indicative of a too comfortable perception that people have "job security". Tell that to the employees at Kodak, or HP, or ...

Strange that none of the "its only a game, don't be so silly" people have shown up here. Reassuring in fact. Maybe they're only trolling and turn away from the cold light of rational discussion.

I can relate torrid

This summer i relied on my second life income for many uses this summer..i work for a school bus company in real life and everyone at the company basically get's laid off for 3 months with the exception of some drivers who volunteer to drive for the firemen on fire charters if anyone does not know what fire charters are lol well i live in Alaska and summers are notorious for wildfires . So i use my second life income for money it's not much but something to get me by i don't have medical insurance at my company so my second life income has paid for alot of my doctor bills and medication...i see nothing wrong with it of course i keep some money in world to shop with hehe

My thoughts:

SL is not a game.
SL is a virtual world/environment where people come for entertainment.
All work done for commercial sale in SL is no different than any other art and/or application development.
Making money from this work is no different than RL work. It deserves the same protection and value given to it.
Some people that come to SL can't appreciate these things because they haven't put the time and effort into creating commercial products.

I admire anyone who makes rl money in SL. It shows a creativity and dedication in RL. Plus you are providing the nuts and bolts of the game.

As for those who make those flippant careless remarks, some of it is jealousy. Some reflects their own fears that keep them from making thing in SL. Some of it is just "trying to be cute" and push up their message counts.

I would just disregard the negativity and keep doing wihat you're doing.

Thank you to all the wonderful content creators, land barons, scripters and the rest of us who are just consumers. We are all a part of the beautiful mosaic that makes up Second Life.

I don't make enough L$ yet to even cover the cost of the monthly fee (darn spending habits)

When I came to SL, yes, it was the lure of possible RL money that could be made from the game. Note I said possible. I never once had the thought that, "OMG, I CAN MAKE MONEY OFF THIS?!" It's exactly like any other business venture in RL and there is always that frightening chance of failure around the corner, and when treated as such, I decided to SLOWLY build my base, rather than shove tons of RL money into it.

But since this would only be a suplemental income, I can also "afford" to treat it as a game. In this way, it's as cheap to play as any MMORPG, except for the fact that maybe someday, I might start making RL money off it in a way that is satisfying to me.

With this in mind, do I think those people who make their livings off it as "irresponsible"? Hell no. Brave souls! I just feel a bit fortunate that I still have the option to treat it as a game

I have voiced the opinion for a long time that is a bad idea and unrealistic to expect a certain revenue stream from SL. I have held this opinion for many reasons, none of them having to do with the recent “exploit”, which really isn’t all that recent; it has been around for months and was just recently exposed.

The SL economy and environment is completely unstable and Linden Labs offers no guarantees. There is no guarantee of service according to the TOS. There was a time recently, which people were unable to login and access the world for days at a time, well documented in forums, which affected sales for almost every person I know. There are a lot of people that depend on their SL sales to make tier payments, LL makes no guarantees on service availability. We often have days (lately most days) that teleport does not work, you have to repeatedly teleport to locations, yet billing is always right on time. All those days that SL was unable to us, was anyone reimbursed? Did LL give anyone credits for lost sales due to unavailability of the system? The TOS states that all data is “temporary” and has “no value” so LL is in no way responsible. As an adult and a parent, that is not something I am comfortable backing the grocery money with, but everyone has their idea of security and safety. Having worked for a few Dot Coms, and other companies that ended up on fuckedcompany.com, most of the time no one knows the boom is going to drop until it drops, and what has really happened is never public until some disgruntled employee posts it on the internet. SL could close to tomorrow and everything we have in SL and all the Lindens we have in GOM and IGE would be worthless, even more worthless than confederate bills were during the Civil War because Lindens aren’t even printed

Beyond the TOS and Technical issues, there are too many people with too many millions of Lindens for the market to be considered stable. There is too much cash in circulation. The fact someone was able to place 2 million Linden on GOM for $3.80 should serve as a wake up call. Last week they just temporarily devalued the Linden to $3.80, not such a big deal, but what happens when someone’s Nana needs an operation and they want to cash out quickly and they put a few million up for $3.50, $3.25, or $3.00, or even less? The days could easily come and not out of desperation for cash, but for the sole purpose of devaluing the Linden. Not all people see SL as a cash cow or if pushed and emotional enough wouldn’t give a damn about devaluing the Linden to the point of affecting other people. The more money you have say 2 million to toss on the market the less you are hurt by devaluing the Linden based on sheer volume, that person is not the person hurt. The person hurt is the person who is cashing out the 50-200K on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to cover tier and etc, which is the average SL vendor.

The land market in which the Linden is based on is controlled by one person. If you have watched the auctions for the past few months, there is one person that has set the base line price for land for months. This person sets their max bid, guaranteeing that either they get land at the price they set land at or, that no one else gets it for less. And since the value of the Linden seems to be directly tied to the state of the land market, this again is cause for concern, and the “new” auction system is not correcting that issue, only making it easier.

In the interest of time and the length of this post I won’t even get into texture theft, new “walmart” like vendors, and asset server issues, those topics have been rehashed to death.

The TOS, Technical issues, and Linden instability make this a volatile and unreliable revenue stream. Bravo to everyone that can pull RL cash out this current system, but the ability for it to last long term or even short term is questionable.