Brick Back Torrid Midnight!

as i understand it, torrid bought a skin, but used an 'illegal' (major grey-area!) texture-grabbing program to save a purchased skin texture to modify for -her own use,- and -not for sale.-

gee, i used'ta write my name with a sharpee on the side of my 'trapper-keeper' back in gradeskewl. no, i didn't usta try to sell my 'me-customized trapper-keeper' on the playground, but if i did, there'd be ample witnesses to attest to the fact that i was 'reselling' customized articles. as in 'repaid for damages'. but anything short of...

as we enter the age of 'lawnmower man', lol - we're gonna have to accept 'sharpies' all over our own 'singular pieces' of artwork. just like RL flyers... anyone can walk around fucking up flyers. been there; been the victim of that!! in a 'compensatible way'?? no. and, funny enough, it is -so much easier- to investigate and demonstrate whether your own personal design (= though * time) has been compromised.

if someone hates somebody, then maybe should just start writing a diary/journal; that's the way it -used- to be done. the 'blogs'n'forums' are -not- your personal journals. my old manager at 'wendy's' used to like to 'broadcast' her criticisms! do ya wanna be a 'wendy's' manager??





very kewl of you to contribute to the conversation... i've been watching on background, emotional-feeling but wishing to hear all sides contribute in some form.

Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.

I posted this comment following Aimee's post about this tumult last night:

http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2006/09/07/sl-fashion-personal-modifications-and-of-course-drama/#c2064128

I honestly believe that the entire fashion community has a stake in what has occurred this week, and the entire community has a lot to lose.

What is at stake? Let me appeall to your pocket books, as your emotions have already been rubbed raw. Every designer who has hopped from blog to blog, posting, retracting, commenting, and "reporting" on the incident should be fully aware of the damage this will inflict on your brand. If you are friends with any of the designers involved in this fight, the responsible thing would have been to reason wit them, beg them to pull down their blog posts, their comments, etc. and get quiet. It doesn't matter if one person ran to the blog first and the pthers were compelled to respond. Your customers are watching and they are nauseated by everything they have seen.

By failing to protect your brands, you have also made another mistake. You have made all os SL fashion seem like a giant joke. If the designers themselves are this petty, this careless with what they do and say to each other, what does that say about the care they put into their creations? Why do I even need to bother spending money on another skin? Another flexi skirt? Why should I believe for a moment that SL fashion is important, if the voices behind the brands are uncaring and mean.

Branding is about inspiration. And the designers who have contributed to this public fight have left all other designers--and your customers--completely uninspired.

I beg everyone, on every side, with every hurt heart and angry fist to please, get quiet. Let some distance set in. Let time give you perspective. But, please, stop giving yourself an excuse to display your angst, your pain, and your outrage in public. The rage is killing the desire to create in all of your colleagues. And it depleting the will of your customers.

Interesting how 'ripping' a texture becomes 'ripping off' a texture.

I'm with Ingrid. Take em all with a grain of salt. Any blog defending either party will have some degree of bias, especially when there's an established friendship. There's no story here that has more truth than the other. And considering these are written by ordinary folks who aren't real journalists, tabloid sensationalism is expected. No offense, but one can swoon over new capris only so many times til it's all a farce afterward.

And I think Aimee's article did have good intentions to highlight how awful some people can be due to internet anonymity. But -LOL- getting quotes from only Torrid's friends starts reading out like a high school yearbook. But I know they're friends and seeing they'd do that for each other is an enviable loyalty.

But fights like this was bound to happen, cuz the SL fashion community ripped itself apart anyway. People tried to bond but when there's little support coming from LL to help designers protect their wares, the frustration just gets misdirected.

Just sorry to see Torrid had to take a fall while the real texture-ripping scum thrive and profit. And if it had been my texture ripped and modified, I too would be pissed so I can see Lost's side too. Perhaps if we were less frigid in offering custom work this wouldn't leave people to look for other ways to tweak things. Or simply, trust one's co-designers and give them the textures to modify for their personal use. If they do cross the line and profit from them, then I'd see it appropriate to string em by their gibblets.

Anyhoo, I look forward to her comeback. Any truly talented person who's been dragged thru the mud like this would muster up some serious creative energy to prove all her nay-sayers wrong.

I just want to say as someone who is related to Torrid, please just let this die. For everyone involved it's becoming a more torture filled experience each day. I have watched my sister in tears for the last 3 days and I can only imagine how the others involved have been feeling. They're all getting attacked left and right and it just needs to stop, please.

So many details have been left out of all these constant stories coming out on blogs, news sites, etc. Facts are getting twisted, people are getting hurt, and it's doing nobody any good. Torrid resolved things with Lost a few months ago and things were fine between them, from what I know he even told her she could continue modifying the skin if she wanted, that he was alright with it. He was upset because she didn't go to him and ask his permission and Torrid fully understood that, she was and is extremely remorseful. That seems to have just gotten tossed out the window in all this turmoil.

It is time to let this go and move on, let people heal for god's sake. The people who were involved are all wishing for this to end I am sure. I don't think any of them meant for things to get so out of control like this. Let those who forgave and those who were forgiven get on with their lives. I have advised Torrid not to look at anymore websites, forums, or blogs about this, enough is enough. I'd advise the others involved to do the same.

Go be with your friends and family people, enjoy your life and be kind to each other.

Torrid, I don't know you personally but I've loved your clothing designs for a long time. You've provided excellent customer service when I had questions and provided me what I needed to fix an outfit of your when it was accidentally "messed up" when I "ruthed" I truly hope you stay and I'm so sorry your feelings were hurt by the vile words of immature people.

I personally don't find anything wrong with her altering a skin for personal use. So what, people do it all the time. If she had tried to sell it that would be different. People can be soooo mean.

PLEASE STAY TORRID!!!

I posted this in response to Aimee's story about this, but I think I want to repeat it here:

"I find this story manipulative, at least in part. It's meant to tug at our heartstrings and make us feel badly for Torrid, and maybe it should -- certainly she did NOT deserve to be wished dead, and I would imagine she didn't deserve a lot of the other attacks she may have endured.

However, I dislike the way this story slyly ties that in with the unrelated and arguably very legitimate complaint these other designers had regarding what she did with their work, implying that they personally endorsed, or may even have been behind, vicious attacks up to and including death threats. It doesn't even have to actually say that, and indeed it doesn't. It just implies it very skillfully.

I'll admit it: it worked on me at first. I found myself bristling with anger, thinking, "Why, that Lost! I'll never buy anything of hers again! Who else was on that list again?!!" That's the beauty of manipulating by appealing to emotions: it works. It works really, really well. And it took a moment before my rational side stepped in, grabbed me by the shoulders, spun me around, and made me slow down and think it through a little more.

Aimee, I'm sorry that your friend left, and I'm doubly sorry that she was attacked so viciously. Whatever else happened here, she didn't deserve that. But let me ask you this: do those other designers deserve to be indirectly accused of making or endorsing those death threats, even if it's only by implication?"

first id like to say I think everyone including Lost and I wish Torrid well.im really confused on this whole death statement and would like to know where it was posted and who said it .It seems unbelievable to me that anyone would say such a thing .

My involvement in this began months ago when the incident happened with Tor and Lost. This is how it went . Lost and torrid were discussing the situation between the TWO of them. Mistress decided to message lost and take a side with Torrid , basically trying to get lost to forgive Torrid etc. Lost was stressed over the situation so I decided I would talk to Mistress and explain why lost was upset .In that conversation Mistress stated to me several times that she did not condone what torrid did, that it was definatley wrong.I explained to her how hurt lost was over the whole thing and how he did not want anyone opening his textures .She understood.Mis and I then came to an agreement we would stay out of it .

This is why I am so angry and upset this ever happened .If torrid was dragged into this by me it was only to give a background on the whole entire situation.

*Oh and BTW ..aimee at that time also made it clear to us she did not condone what tor did either.

My condolences to everyone who's been sucked into this snake pit, especially Torrid.

The only lasting effect this will have on me is: I will no longer buy skins or clothing that are no-mod. If the designer doesn't support Fair Use, I have no interest in supporting them with my cash.

The original may well be "Art", but once you've sold a few hundred copies it becomes "product".


Lash, that is priceless!

Wait...what?

Sorry Aimee ,I just reread the conversation I had with you a few months ago when this situation began .You had no opinion either way .You only stated that Torrid wasn't involed with MC, that she was hardly ever there .My bad, I read into this statement wrong

Why in god's name would you want to throw bricks at Torrid Midnight's back?

Thank you for clearing that up.


For the record, I should state how I DO feel about these various issues, as they really are complicated:


Using the OpenGL Texture ripper - This is not a violation of TOS because this software grabs texture and geometry data from the client video card AFTER the data been decoded by SL on the client. The morality of using this software depends on the reason you are using it.

Ripping other people's textures for resale or redistribution - From what I hear this could be violation of certain laws but I am not certain. In my opinion it certainly *IS* an immoral thing to do, and I would never condone it.

Ripping other people's textures after paying the purchase price for personal customization - Legally, I'm hearing two stories. Jake claims it is a violation of certain laws. Others are claiming that it's fair use. Morally, I'm on the line leaning towards "it's OK." If I were to be pursuaded that this practice was wrong, I would consider it a wrong on par with Jay-Walking.

ANd even worse, with Mistress and Torrid barely involved here, it doesn't hurt them at all. Only me!
If you want to extend your feud to me, by all means let your statements stand. But if you have any sense of fairness, and you don't want to start a war with ME, plese update your blog so your attacks hit their intended target

I did as you asked Aimee, so im really wondering why you have chosen to get involed and basically attack us for standing up for ourselves.

Ughhhh, this issue should not have been brought to the forums. I'm tired of re-explaining myself so I will just quote my most recent comments on the blog:

Ugh, seriously, if I wanted my skins modified outside of SL I'd sell them in full rights. They were clearly marked no mod to begin with. We do have a store policy stating the buyers cannot edit the textures outside of SL.
"Naughty Designs retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The buyer may not redistribute these textures in whole or in part. The buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the internet where it may be referenced by a third party. The buyer may not use third party software to extract the original texture files. The buyer may not modify the texture in any way. In buying our products you agree to the terms stated above. Naughty Designs will enforce this user agreement to the fullest possible extent."

Months ago when Torrid had intersepted the textures Mistress involved herself in the situation even though she was not part of it. Why would Mis lie if she thought what she did was not wrong to begin with? And really I tried to talk things through privately; instead I was linked to here blog and shoved off. Sorry it turned out to be so brutal, that was not the insention. I don't really care if you disagree with what was posted on our blog, I don't expect everyone to agree with it. I do have feelings as well as Torrid and Mis, I too was really hurt by all of this.

This was not a damn stunt before the opening of our island. That statement is just ridiculous. The opening was that much more stressful, chaotic, and I was not able to be there 100% for my customers. I did not know the situation would blow up this huge. Please mis, stop trying to make us look like the bad guys here. We reacted to Mis's lies, and avoidance of the situation. I do not believe that posting the whole story on our blog to inform people was the wrong way to react.

Peter's review was not fair as I was immensely busy preparing for the opening of the island. I did not have time to expand my thoughts on the situation through IM. The issue here is not the differences between the bought skins and the combined skins. The point is she took the actual textures into her hands without the consent of the creator, when these textures did not have the rights to begin with.

I'm sad to hear the verbal abuse Torrid underwent. I can understand why she is taking a break, and I respect her decision. I do not believe however that we are are the ones to blame.

...and btw mis, you are missing an origional skin that you used for the combined skins, and covered these parts; and also failed to bring up other points -- like using the actual textures you intersepted on your ads. I dunno but, that itself seems to me you are "profiting off of someone else's work" :\

The title "texture wars" was actually shocking I must add... as we did not discuss the issue long enough for it to be a war. I think unfortunately you brought all this onto yourself and Torrid.

And now after seeing Aimee's review on the situation I'm at loss of words. "THEY TOLD HER THEY WISHED SHE'D DONE EVERYONE A FAVOR AND DIED DURING SURGERY." -- of course in bold, which does insinuate the opposing side stated this.

...First of all, no there was no form of bitchy catty insults being thrown at eachother. The situation that was of the past had resurfaced because of mis's actions. No, I'm not sure if she had purchased the skin to begin with. If she did, that's great, but please refer to what I said in the above quote.

Im sorry all of this had to resurface and escalate during Torrid's recovery, as well as the opening of our island. Was this planned beforehand? NO.

This is something that I WISH had not happened, especially with someone who had helped me out in the beginning whom I now feel has betrayed and caused alot of hurt against me. But am I going to keep quiet about something when I feel it is not right in the first place? NO. Mis brought this publicly, we had our side of the story. We later posted especially after Mis denied our comments to her post.

Instead of trying to work things out, mis directed me to what she had posted in her blog and then logged out. I continued sending her IMs without any response.

I respect Torrid's decision to take a break because of the amplification of this shitty issue that really has gotten out of hand.

GL intercepting something that is not in full rights or without permission is wrong; and not intended by the creator to be taken out of the boundries of sl is wrong. This is something that should have been asked in the first place. Yes, after the whole issue with Torrid, I did allow her to keep those textures as there was really no point since she already had them saved on her computer; I just asked her to please ask me next time she feels the need to do so. Mis knew this yet months later I found out she denied my wishes and did it anyway. This may be a "grey area" and an "individual's opinion"; but this is my opinion and Mis knew that but did not respect it. To her defense: we are all freinds; I helped you out in the beginning; I would not be offended if you did this with clothing as long as it's personal use. Does this then entitle her to disrespect my STRONG opinions on the use of open GL?

I feel used, I was lied to, I feel looked down upon by someone who I feel thinks they are at some kind of greater power than I am. A designer whom I respected, admired, and had been grateful for her help in the past. This has really hurt me and she has failed to recognize my feelings, and has chosen to defend only herself, and offend her "freind" at the same time.

I'm wondering where these mysterious putdowns toward Torrid came from.
Im not one to try to get myself caught up in a ton of drama; I'm sorry for those of you who believe that is what this is about. We've been stomped all over the past few months with theft, scammers, and texture ripping, and now this ?

No, this issue is not about eyeliner. It goes deeper than that. Yes, I've lost sleep over this and have been completely crushed and drained by it. Are we to be blamed? I think not. This has all been so twisted up ...

I wish Torrid as painless a recovery as possible, and hope she decides to return after she's had the time to heal and recover from this situation.

US copyright law says otherwise, I'm afraid.

A radio station doesn't like it when you record their feed onto a cassette tape. Yet it's completely legal as long as you don't resell it.

Artists don't like it when you take pictures of their artwork, but again it's quite legal as long as you don't resell the pictures.

Fair use is what allows us to modify what we own for our own benefits. Ever write notes in the sides of a college course book? Almost everyone has; that's "modifying the original in a way the author didn't intend", and thus should be illegal? I think not.

Even parodies and covers are provisioned under fair use. The mixing and remixing of the products of society is what makes innovation happen.

Adding eyeliner to a skin shouldn't be, and isn't, illegal in any of the 50 US states. It doesn't matter how she obtained the skin. GL intercept isn't illegal, sorry. Would print-screening the skin texture be somehow better? Or should print-screen be illegal?

There is no theft here. There is no "ripping off" an artist. This is fair use, pure and simple, dead stop.

But it doesn't matter, because we've lost a wonderful person and brilliant creative mind due to petty squabbling and catty trolling.

Congrats.

I tend to lean this way myself, I mean.. if I want to scribble marker all over my Tshirt, I'll dam well do it o.O

Exactly. If I were to take a picture of the skin I use and doodle all over it with magic marker and wear that, would/should I be sued/banned/condemned to death?

No matter who's right or wrong, or who borrowed what from whom, someone that says "I wish you had died during your surgery" is wrong by default and is a person that's in need of emergency psycho-eval. So whoever said these words, drop everything and schedule a session. You are in great danger of becoming the worst possible thing in this world: A monstrous blatant asshole.

I don't know Torrid one bit except I enjoyed her smart words in the audio blog and loved her accent.

I send her my best wishes. This community will miss her and we hope she will come back one day.

To all other haters and linden dollar slaves, all I have to say is, you have a sad, bitter life in RL and it turns out when given the chance to have a second one, you make the same sad old mistake out of your Second Life. Get help, get meds, get out of here. Thanks in advance.

Troy

Now, of course, Andy didn't use a scanner to obtain a soup can label and then modify it to look like a painting. Thinking about him made me wonder about something...

I wonder, if GLintercept did not exist and someone with the capability of hand painting a texture to match exactly an original did so for his/her personal use, how would people react?

Be sure to also think about that situation with the following additions:

A. This painter did purchase the texture vs. didn't purchase it.
B. This painter made an exact copy of the texture vs. taking some artistic liberty with it. (artisitic liberty ranging from something as simple as changing a color to something as complex as making it look like something else entirely)

Makes for some pretty interesting meditations on the matter of intellectual property.

I'm not really looking for an opinion or response, I just thought some would enjoy this as a thought experiment about some of what is being discussed in this thread.

interesting enough musings, but isnt that what all skinners do? rofl.. I mean they didnt invent the human facade afterall

What Lordfly said.

I hate this sort of stupid shit, I hope Torrid comes back after a break.

One thing I have decided on while reading this thread...


There are certain content providers whom I will NEVER support via purchases in their stores or via their vendors.


Anybody who engages in petty squabbles such as these in a manner which inhibits an individuals ability to enjoy their SL dosent deserve MY business. Anybody who continues these squabbles long enough to actually run somebody out of the game... well, that just turns my stomach!


There are many many many items sold in the RW which are intended by their creators as "No mod" objects... guess what? I love to open those up and figure out ways to make 'em more to my liking!

Do I remanufacture them or give them to friends?
No

Do I enjoy some new functionality?
Absolutely!

And a photographer didn't invent the things they photograph either Richie.

They still have expectations & rights over their work and how
it is used & displayed in public - some legal, some based on
ethics & morality.

"A recording of a broadcast can be made in domestic premises for private and domestic use to enable it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time. This time-shifting exception does not cover the making of recordings for placing in a collection for repeated viewing or listening; and use of recordings other than to time-shift a programme for yourself or your family is likely to be illegal."

You'd realize your original take on it makes little sense, when you consider with your idea of 'completely legal' i could go to a place where say, your prefabs are on display, then capture the 'SL data feed' to obtain a personal copy of each of your creations and then use them to my heart content till the cows come home, without paying you a dime, ever.

Also, note that broadcasting stations typically pay considerable distribution fees to original creators/owners of broadcasted material, in part precisely due to this ability people have to record the data and utilize it without having to pay anything the author. Which is certainly not the case between LL and creators of content for the medium LL broadcasts. In short, this is significantly different business model (and perhaps not really well thought out, but that's another story)

Finally, the broadcast flag concept pretty much attempts to remove even this time-shifting ability/exception from the content receivers. And while this process is currently on hold, it's due to technicalities of 'who can regulate what' rather than 'the consumers have their right and this idea steps on them'.

No, fair use doctrine is something quite different. It's a way to utilize/copy someone's else copyrighted material without specific permission. It's quite limited in scope though, and takes a few important factors in consideration.

Please, if you insist on dragging this sorry mess further around the place, at least don't fill it with such ignorance? :/

edit: i don't personally endorse too strict take on the copyright ownership, and i do prefer customers being able to modify their items into what they'd rather them be like... but it just doesn't mean i want to spread misinformation about what can and cannot be legally done