Stopping Developers Incentive?

Role-play. Socialise. Take advantage of all the great FREE stuff. Explore. Sail. Race. Go visit all the places that the money-chair campers just pulled the plug on before they go away.

Next year? I have no idea. But that's your fault.

Well sure, some percentage of people will pay, even if it's just so they can do _something_. But a lot of people will lot at what's offered and vote with their (virtual) feet.

I don't see it as a rationalization to say that if residents are expected to fork over $L, then whoever is asking had better provide something worth the money they're asking.

People _will_ pay for things they percieve have value. They won't pay for crappy events, clubs or whatever.

Not to pick on you, because you are far from the only one. You do the same thing over and over, harping on how bad clubs are and how bad the developers incentive is because people need to pay for entertainment, yyet you don't offer any meaningful suggestions as to what you would replace clubs with? What exactly is there to do in SL? This is the question new usesrs ask, why exactyl should I upgrade my account from a basic to a premium? This is the question that needs answering.

Right now a bunch of people have built things for residents to do. They get an award that offsets the cost and allows them to continue to provide this service, which residents, basic and premium continue to partake of.

Should Willow charge me admission to Slootsville sdo I can shop at the mall? Or should she increase rent which increases cost of items which puts people on the lower end of the income spectrum further from being able to afford products, and they get disillusioned and move on to more traditional games.

Right now SL , like it or not, is comepteing with SWG and WOW and EQ and any other game. It is not competing with any platform, and is not well on the way to become 3-d web. A lot more changes need to be in place for that to work. So the question always comes back to now that they have done away with the DI, what sorts of entertainment do you think people would pay for?

Much in life is a big "if". I'm really tempted to try this "if" though, as it happens.

My fault?

You know, I'm not actually sure they're bothered about the conversion. I think they'd be quite happy with people renting land from larger land owners in greater numbers (less billing on their side) and recycling the L$ in the economy more through the LindeX. In the long run it makes so much sense and may even lower their support costs, especially through land, as they're not having to do the support to lots of individuals, rather fewer larger account holders. I increasingly believe that this is how they're positioning things. I'm not sure that a rush to get people to go Premium is that it's all about - I think the free accounts are a way to boost the market for the developers.

Sure they may make a little less through each of those people renting land rather than going to premium but I bet the benefits out-weight the negatives.

The new users ask that because all they're seeing shoved down their throats are the clubs, casions, malls, blah. That's why I say that it's underselling SL, because people don't get to see the games, attractions, interesting places etc. that actually exist in greater abundance than you might realise. So it's not about replacing at all, it's about better visibility for the diversity that already exists and continues to get better.

People come in, see clubs, go to clubs, sit in chairs and because that's pretty much all they're presented with they think "Shoot, this sucks" and wander off again.

If the removal of the DI gets rids of some of the chaff, maybe people will see that there's much more wheat around than they realised.

This topic hasn't been made into 5 threads and a poll yet. Did someone get suspended, or are they just on vacation for the holidays.

Reading the police thread is interesting btw. Some serious hand slapping was going on over personal attacks in the forum.

All I can say is 'ARGHH!'

Oh, good, you just accused me of being a racist. You want to bring in Hitler and the Holocaust as well?

Dwell is not a "vote". Dwell is a TOOL for Linden labs to use to encourage the creation of attractions that attract paying customers. If its not measuring people by the amount of money they bring in to Linden Labs, it's a poor tool.

AND THAT is EXACTLY what "dwell" is. Dwell is allthe things people buy from the vendors that DO NOT EXIST in Second Life, because Second Life doesn't simulate 90% of the real world economy. Why? Because you don't buy and sell food, or insurance, or health care, or shelter from the weather. Everyone gets free food, free clothes, and a free virtual bed in hyperspace that they can go to when they sleep. Nobody gets sick, or suffers from starvation. Nobody, in short, spends any of the money on basic necessities that's the largest part of most people's budgets.
That would be Linden Labs, and the paying customers, and the people who buy stuff with US$ through LindeX. And those are the people whose presence should be counted the most in dwell.
But even in the REAL WORLD every "event" and "club" is paid for by exchanges that DO NOT HAPPEN in Second Life. When you go to a bar in RL, you don't pay to enter the bar. Oh, there are some that have a cover charge, but that cover charge is as much to keep people who can't afford to buy drinks out as to pay for the entertainment. A huge part, in most cases the majority of, the cost of real world events is paid for by "drinks"... or equivalent.

NOBODY BUYS DRINKS IN SL. They're avatars. they don't get thirsty, or drunk.

Instead, the drinks they WOULD have bought are counted as dwell.

Which is why dwell needs to be scaled to reflect the fact that some people have more money to spend on drinks than others.

Argent, in case you hadn't noticed, this is not the real world. It's SL, with SL's economy. Real people pay real money to provide you with places to go and things to do. You either appreciate it or you don't. If you don't then you're in no way entitled to access to those things, and if you're getting it it's only out of someone else's generosity... someone just like you.

There seems to be two kinds of content creators in game, those who create stuff to buy and those that create entertainment to be experienced.

I'm in the former group, I made something. I sell enough of it to pay my small tier and buy whatever I would like to in game. Some content creators make a lot more and actually pay their RL bills with it. For the people who make clothes, skins, hair, vehicles, animations and gadgets, SL works pretty well. It's possible to get a decent amount of compensation for your time.

Now there are other content creators who like to create content that's more about entertainment: clubs, themed sims, games, etc. How does someone who wants to create entertaining environments get compensated?

Some of these entertainments have built in ways to make money. For instance, Dark Life charges for the basic backpack to play. When you buy higher level items, you are paying lindens as well. Some games have a way of recouping their tier fees it seems.

How about clubs? They can rent shop space and apts/houses, they can accept donations and perhaps charge admission for certain events. They can sell advertising space within the clubs. They can provide services, as the many sex themed clubs try to offer.

Themed sims are a little tougher. Excessive advertising and vendor rental could easily destroy the ambiance of such a place. Apt and house rental might not work as well.

Now, here is the question, if I can rephrase. This entertainment creates value for Linden Labs. It makes SL more compelling and attractive to people and that makes people more willing to buy premium accounts and pay tier. So should Linden Labs subsidise content creators? In some cases, I think they should. It's in their interest to do so if it encourages good, sticky content.

Is this what the current Developer Incentive was doing? In some cases, it did encourage the creation of content that made SL a genuinely more entertaining place. In many cases it did not.

Put youself in the position of a newbie. They hear about SL, they download the client and get started. They look at the list of most popular places and start checking them out hoping to find some reason to stick around. But instead they find zombie farms, full of AFK avis making money. That isn't going to convince a lot of people that SL is worth paying for. And I don't think LL should subsidise these zombie farms, cause they don't get much benefit from it. In fact, it probably does more harm to SL than good.

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Now, let's say three different players each buy a sim.

In one sim, a player creates an interesting build with fun things to do. She opens up the sim to the public and encourages people to hang out there. It's the kind of place that when new players find it, they get excited about SL. They decide to stay and maybe even convert their account to a premium account. Eventually they buy a little land as a private getaway. Should this person who created this sim get a subsidy? Is it in the interest of LL to give them one. Yes, I think it is.

In another sim, a player creates a private island that only they and a few select friends get access to. Should they get a subsidy? No. It's private property, they should pay for themselves. That seems obvious enough.

In a third sim, a player creates a club or shop. They decide they want to buy their way to the top of the most popular list by giving away money. The most efficient and direct way to do this is by setting up money chairs and pay avis to sit there. Should LL subsidise this? Nope. No way. Not at all. I don't even think that they should be able to buy their way into the Most Popular list this way.

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I hope that LL replaces DI with something that does make this distinction and subsides the kind of places that make SL compelling enough for people to convert to premium accounts.

Off to start another thread to brain storm ideas rather than just complain and argue

I buy drinks in SL!! The ones with the really fun and different animations in them.

Market forces. What does your club offer me for L$100 that I can't get somewhere else for L$0? Unless you're providing something that's worth more than L$0, you're not going to get more than L$0 for it.

So...

I've been to a few clubs. They're fun places to dance in, but they're no more fun than a few particle generators and dance bracelets in a sandbox somewhere. And frankly the sandbox is MORE fun, because you can change the club around and do outrageous things with it that the club owner can't manage.

I've donated money, sometimes as much as a few hundred Linden, to builds I visit a lot. But i I *had* to pay to use them I don't think I'd have bothered coming in... because it's the other people who visit them as much as the places themselves that make them worth the money.

What kind of entertainment are you offering that's worth L$100 to a relatively prosperous (in LS terms) Basic like me?

US$25.00 for 4096 to Alliez Mysterio, half of which goes to Linden Labs in sim rental. About US$20 a week at LindeX, most of which eventually gets back to Linden Labs one way or the other. Plus hours a week helping people with scripting and building, even outright writing scripts for people.

But I'm not willing to spend 10 bucks a month on a premium account if all it buys me is the right to own 512 square meters in a slum.

OK. You tell me. What would I get for my cover charge at your club that I can't get from tossing down dance balls in a sandbox?

To paraphrase a popular saying from the 80's "Where's the wheat?"

Frankly I think a lot of poel like clubs, they like the music, they like seeing and beeing seen, and form cumminites and freindships around them. I have not seen anything that consistently draws as much attendance as clubs. I always wonder why people assume that clubs are porpular because we are forced to do it, and not because, well people like going to clubs?

Which agains brings us back to you saying "the abundance of games attraction, interesting places, etc." I hear this but don't know what these places are or where they are, and I ask you for concrete examples. Presumably you feel these places should be the basis for the core of SL entertainment, and are the sort of content the DI was meant to reward. So I am asking you to point this stuff out.

1. You will get to see Chip.
2. (Directly related to 1) You'll probably get at least 3 defamatory mentions on Prokofy Neva's blog!

Argent, you're a great example of why I don't think LL are using the free accounts as a way to get more people to go to premium accounts. Premium is not the be-all and end-all, because it's the relationship that you have to SL that's most important not, as you rightly say, paying LL 10 bucks a month to own 512m in a slum. They're better off with people doing it your way because it has a knock on effect of them having to deal with fewer land owners and also supporting the currency exchange.

You know, so many of their actions make me feel that this is the way they're thinking.

lmao

Argent, what you would get would be the knowledge that you're being fair to the event host or venue. If you'd rather stay in the sandbox, nothing wrong with that, but if you want to attend events or hang out at clubs you should be willing to donate or pay cover to help defray their expenses. If afterwards you don't feel it was worth it you just don't attend another of their events or don't go back to whatever club it was.

Damn, did I get you confused with someone else who was saying he needed to sit on a money chair to get the textures for his business? Sorry about that.

Exactly. Rental have circumvented tier because you get land you want for a fair price and you don't have to buy the land. It makes no difference to me if I pay Anshe or I pay LL, however if land onwership is not the driving force behind tier, then waht is? What is the incentive to pay linden lab 40 bucks a month for my 8086 when I could pay the same, or maybe less to Anshe?

This premium accounts need to have some incentive to make them lucrative beyond the right to buy 512 in a slum. More importantly the 512 in a slum comes with 500 a week in stipend, which would be easily blown if I want to start a business and need to purchase or upload textures, have more than one change of clothes. Now you are taking that limted bduget and saying I need to pay 100 linden every time I want to go to a club and see my freinds?

Hell we are not even talkiing, about sking and vehicles or land yet, all of which are major purchases that require me to spend money that I buy on the lindex.

Hell Starley Therian makes women's skins for 6k a pop. How many do you think Willow owns? How many skins to people own at 1500 k a pop? Also good outfits are somewhere in the 150-200 range as a minimum for shirts. And then there is bling, if you like it, watches, rings, shoes. All told to make an avi that hangs out in clubs and plays slingo will cost something like 10k in linden. I would not count people out of the economy because they like hangind out a pplaces that are free.

Don't confuse me with my viewpoint. I am arguing a position that is a valid and popluar take on second life. I myself build hoises make clothes and sometimes do this for money, or otherwise buy lindens on the lindex. I pay my 40 buck a month to LL and get my lousy 500 linden, which almost covers textures, ratings, costs of being listed in the find section and tips for each week. I don't really care if I make any money, I am more than willing to pay for SL.

But I also hang out in clubs, play tringo and talk to people who sot on money balls. In my wanderings I encounter and speak with a lot of newbies who are out trying to sort out SL, and I ask them things.

Chip, it simply doesn't work that way. Whether it's RL or SL, people want value for their money. Noboday is going to pay $L to a club owner just to "be fair" to the event host or venue.

And for people to even show up, much less pay, there need to be _something_ to get their attention.

I don't see this as nearly as complicated as some folks are trying to make it.

Simple:

Create something that is worth paying for and people will pay for it. Give people the same old crap (like 99% of the "clubs" in SL) and people will shrug their shoulders and move on.

Jake, OK if you want some examples, here are just a few sims and stuff off the top of my head:

Taco
Numbakulla
Dark Life
The Lost Gardens of Apollo
Primitive Fusion (Space Rocks of Death is fun)
My skates (j/k)
Fairchang islands

Seriously, there are lots and lots of places where you can easily waste a day doing stuff, that's just some things off the top of my head. Then there are people making games (ddin't somebody make a Settler's game, and is it Newfie Pendragon who came up with that fnatastic game recently?). Then there's the game dev sims etc. etc.

The world has a lot of gems - stuff people would really enjoy. Of course there's a place for clubs, although I feel that 99% of the clubs don't use the potential of SL anywhere near enough and instead rely upon formulaic dwell-catching methods. Sure people enjoy them, but might they not enjoy them more if they were offered something really engrossing?