Promote Gun Control

You can't just say "no" to avatar assault, Cristiano and Aimee?

No... but if this prop passes we will soon be able to.

I still in favor of finding the problem...

That is: finding out what it is that people need that the current tools don't provide..

What is it thats needed by so many people, that a script kludge solution is being a problem?

Solve that problem and the scripts will go bye bye.

Siggy.

I know that this is not my original idea, but I felt that it should be put forth as a feature suggestion. I added a proposal for putting in a "No Push" option for our avatars. It's at:

http://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=389

So if you don't want to get tossed around by security scripts, but understand that the push lsl ability does have legitimate scripting uses, please vote for my proposal.

No - I would rather do more than just talk, which is all you seem capable of doing. I would rather have them implement something that brings about real change - the ability for a person to choose whether or not they can be pushed. Simple, effective, and not just talk.

My way or the highway, even if my way means crippling 100s of already existing items that exist in world, the complete nerfing of Jessie and Rausch, the prevention of people further developing benign uses for push. Who cares if your way simply means pushing a freaking button in Edit/Preferences?

My need to be "right" far outweighs the needs of many other people, dontcha know?

I dunno why this is even being debated - LL will NEVER remove push.

I can just see it now, when brakes were first added to wheeled vehicles; some guy screaming frantically that adding a lever was too complex! Do away with carts, wagons and chariots! BAN THEM! Who cares if adding a brake helps protect citizens from being run over, and we can still have our wheeled vehicles! It's too damned complex for me to even try to learn! Plus that would mean I would have to compromise and thereby admit that I was partially wrong about something!

Thank you Vince for creating a proposal for this

uh...

1) this would be anti-business, as there are several gun sellers out there.
2) sound like a totalitarian thing to take away a feature and a freedom just because a few people don't like it.
3) guns give consumer something to do

It's much easier to disparaige a button (a button for fuck's sake!) than to even consider the merit of what anyone else has to say for a moment. Damn those complicated buttons, they hurt my brain.

What would be anti-business? It is already a TOS violation to shoot someone in a safe area. This thread is about solutions to push scripts on land, in spite of the stupid gun control analogy. Implementing the ability to prevent yourself from being pushed is giving someone options, not taking them away. Granted, Prokofy is opposed to that, he just wants bigger punishment after the fact once someone is pushed by the script.

Never mind the argument. Let's all go vote for Vince's proposal.

coco

does the land holder have rights to eject people? so you give people the right to not get pushed... then security scripts stop working?

Hmmm . . . I didn't think of that. I was thinking that ban lines could be put up, or people would just ban individuals.

It didn't occur to me - what do you do when somebody is already ON your property making a commotion? (Especially when you are just hosting something for the real property owner.)

coco

Is that how land ejects work? They use LSL's PushObject function? I would prefer the land based tools (eject, freeze, ban, etc) still work on an individual with push resistance turned on. I actually thought that was a given but it's good to clarify this.

If it would work like Aimee says, then yes, I'm all for it again.

coco

"Security" scripts are making the grid a land mine field by knocking people all over and teleporting them home simply by trying to fly, no matter at what height. There are tools in place to enforce ejecting and banning avatars from land. I would certainly hope that Linden Lab would improve the landowner's tools to deal with griefing on their own land - one part of dealing with griefing (which these secrutiy scripts are that send anyone who flys near off across a sim or home) is to give the user options to stop the abuse, instead of just reporting it.

No that is not how land ejects work - he is referring to the scripted variety, not the built in tools to eject, freeze and ban.

No. Though it is, on the face of it, a good idea, it has the same failing most of the proposals do, it's not looking past the single issue.

Several things here:

1) Without some way for a game script to detect someone cheating with this, it wrecks several established and who knows how many yet to be concieved games.

2) It does nothing for people in vehicles. (You can still shove the vehicle.)

3) It does nothing for other parts of the issue in this thread, i.e.: the instant unsit and eject/teleport problem.

I'd far prefer some clarity from the Lindens, though more than Lee has stated (albeit slightly obliquely) that instant eject/teleport is abusive.

Rigth now, I make the effort to educate those with such a script, and if they refuse to be cooperative about proper adjustments, AR them. So far the ARs have been effective.

I don't expect them to give up thier privacy even though I think it's loony to expect it in SL, but I do expect them to let me get past without being automagically molested. I think that's reasonable, is it not?

It used to be that when I got hit with a scripted object I would get a prompt asking if it was abuse. This never happens any more. When you get abusively pushed or teleported home you do not know who to abuse report, let alone get a prompt.

Unattended scripted objects that push or teleport people for "security" purposes should be illegal. Scripted objects that "eject from land", ie place your avatar just outside the owners land, are fine with me providing a long enough limit (say, 20 seconds) so that they don't unseat aircraft pilots.

Unattended scripted objects that kick unseat you, kick you or your vehicle hundreds of meters, cause your client to crash, or teleport you home should be illegal, plain and simple.

No changes is required to LSL. Just (a) give us a way to abuse report when pushed or teleported, and (b) make it clearly illegal to do that.

Buster

P.S. I have managed to liquidate almost all my land. I'm at $40 per month tier, enroute to $0. I'll log in if I feel like scripting or playing with a build, but no flying around for me. I'm just on the sidelines for now. SL has a lot of potential, and it is fascinating. But its a just a toy now.

I noticed that too, Buster. An unannounced 'nerf'? The last three times I got rudely throw across several sims, I got NO message telling me who did it. Not even under the menu option to view abuses.


What Buster said.


Cindy

The longer I'm in SL, the more I hate all these things.

Tonight I was flying above my build, and got a bit lost for a minute. Suddenly a message appears: "You have ten seconds to clear the area."

Man, that makes me feel like a CRIMINAL or something. Ok, now maybe that's supposed to be "better" than shoving me 400 miles away, or to home, or causing me to crash, but it's still decidedly unfriendly and overbearingly officious. Kind of like police somewhere with loudspeakers: "You have ten seconds to clear the area, or you will be arrested." Eek!

To hell with all of it. I say let people put ban fences around their properties; the end. If you are in the area (above them or whatever), and the fence didn't prevent you from entering, then too bad. If the house is up in the air, either make it so the ban lines can go around it up there, or just keep it to the maximum height that I think I understand that it was supposed to be originally. I never heard of people owning all the airspace above their house irl.

Make it illegal to try to keep others off of anything but their immediate property with anything other than ban lines. I'm sick of everybody "owning" the air, and I don't think that was originally envisioned.

And I don't want to find myself unintentionally in some area that - despite having no signs to the contrary - is supposedly off-limits to me, just because that person decided it should be. And then I'm supposed to scoot real fast - away from where, though, I'm not even sure! That sucks.

I think just a whole lot of people in this game have an inflated sense of their own importance and the importance of their little activities. If people want that much privacy that bad, let them buy a private island.

coco

For fucks sake. First everyone is like "you irresponsible people with security scripts need to include a time delay and warning!". Now they have, you whine about that because it makes you feel like a criminal!

*sigh* people in SL reeeeeeally just like to bitch about everything. That's really the only point of all this, isnt it?

It wouldn't actually matter if everyone complied with what you think is acceptable, cuz the very next day or week y'all change the fucking goalposts.

I agree with Coco, that I hate those arrogant jerks who set up systems that say "you have ten seconds to clear the area". I find them insane. It's often impossible to comply with them when someone owns a lot of property and you can't seem to fly around it. If they want to have privacy, why can't they just set up their lot to say "ban all except these avatars". If they make a group, they can have only themselves and their friends in the group admitted to the group land. The existing tools in the game are fine to keep out the unwanted. I don't like when neighbours do that, I have to bounce my av around next to them and eat red lines, but at least I don't get ejected and send way across the sim.

But...I'm willing to accept this as a compromise -- scripts that notify and then don't bounce home at least -- because I think given the enormous stubborness among the scripterati on this issue, and the stubborness of the yahoos using these aggressive shot-guns, we will never get anywhere except with a compromise position.

And yes, I consciously use the term "yahoos" to describe people who aggressively shove and bounce my avatar without warning back home or far across a sim, and yes I consciously use the term "scripterati" to mean a privileged class of people who believe they are above others and who believe their way should prevail above others' comfort. Why? Because scripterati believe that *their way should prevail*. In fact *their way already DOES prevail*. They do not believe in quality of life for others (Buster is the one exception here evidently, as a programmer able to make scripts). They do this because they are holding tight to the core of the game *as they see it* and they *cannot let go to have others come in and enjoy it*.

They're willing to force Lindens to do extra programming, and willing to force new people to add yet another button all the time to their in-world exploring, rather than just concede the point here that it's damn rude to shoot at and push people across sims and they should just ban this *behaviour*.

The people who don't want to do anything about bounce scripts are not really trying to live in residential areas. They just go to sandboxes or their own huge joint mainland sims with projects or to private islands. They're not the kind to try to fly home from the telehub or fly to friends' houses or even explore -- they're done exploring and have become utterly blase about this world. They're just in a different world than the rest of it. It's really sad.

I'm forced to conclude this about them because *if* they did any exploring or visiting outside their own fractured enclaves, they would have had the same experience the rest of us have been having of being aggressively victimized by yahoos, and they would be "getting it now" and concede that warnings and limitations are needed, and that the Lindens have only to write a memo and make a few arrests for this highly necessary feature of decency to become the norm for the game.

The core of those using the scripts are not the high-tech who love to use the latest scripted thing just on principle but more likely than not, newer people from the "masses" who are obsessed about security because of the high level of griefing in the game. One reason there *is* such a high level of griefing is due to the "fuck-you hedonism" culture that is sanctified and celebrated, that privileges "creativity" and "hacking around" in the "digital culture" more than just normal, civilized living. I'm well aware that the whole reason yahoos reach for this aggressive solution is that they've already been victimized by the handiwork of the laissez-faire MMORPG culture.

Yesterday I was trying to fly to some property I bought to make a rental. I got hit, bounced, and disoriented, rocketed up into the sky and put half way across the sim. I couldn't even figure out where I was at first, being very high in the sky. The bounce script gave me no warning, and ejected me. But right before being ejected, I caught a glimpse of the owner.

Most of them assume this really surly, yahoo, "get off my property" attitude. I contacted this owner and told them their bounce script is a weapon, it is illegal as such, and I am ARing them. Answer: "get off my property". "If you weren't on my property, I wouldn't have to bounce you." But the fact is, I was flying high in the air OVER your property, duh. I have no desire to be on your silly property and butt in on your sex balls. I just want to get to where I'm going. Through a half hour conversation, this person persisted in being dense, surly, and angrily defensive about their right to eject me without warning and blast me across the sim.

They refused to accept the idea that they should consider getting a script that warns and just bounces lightly without such a far, disorienting push. They clung desperately and crazily to their notion of "defense". It's surreal.

Clearly, the yammering about "education" is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. I've found perhaps one bounce script user in having to deal with literally hundreds of them who has been willing to say "oh, ok, I'll put up the red lines on the regular lot tools instead of driving my neighbours insane". And WHO do they think is going to *do* this educating? Um...Lindens and liasons...at the WA? Or mentors in um...classes that they're going to get these yahoos to come to? Huh? The "educating" will be left to *victims*. And obviously, I, when I'm victimized by these aggressive shotguns, and I try to "educate" the user of them, I'm only going to get a face full of crap. There is no way to effectively organize player education to modify behaviour in this game, therefore the only solution is to ban the objectionable behavior and hope that some arrests and enforcement of the ban will create a culture of compliance.

The only way to get at that kind of crazy, stubborn aggressive behaviour in this game is to have the authority of the Lindens to BAN THEM. Once the Lindens get off the dime on this and say "You must use scripts that notify and they cannot bounce home or eject more than X meters" then you'll take down this incredible yahoo aggressiveness about "my property".

Is that's what is really driving this? Some *game*? Some *game* somewhere gets to fuck up the comfort and decent living experience *for the rest of us*? Huh? WHAT game? Is this just a hypothetical? And if it is a game that needs shooting, well fine, put it in an unsafe zone, and shoot. But don't make the rest of SL like a shooting gallery just to have the privileges of one or two game-within-game.



This is irrelevant, whether you're in a vehicle or just flying, you don't want either pushed without warning.



That's why we need that behaviour BANNED.



The "clarity" from the Lindens MUST come in the form of a clear-cut, unambiguous announcement that these scripts are UNLAWFUL, a period 14 days to keep making that message, and then ARRESTS, i.e. bans for their use. That's all.



Uh, I've LOVE to see your effective AR list. I really would. I've AR'd dozens -- maybe hundreds of these yahoos and with NO RESULT. I don't see them getting warned, much less banned, they keep using their yahoo security scripts and keep bouncing people with them.

I've even had cases of calling Lindens to the scene and telling them about weeks-long problems of bounce-scripters harassing neighbourhoods on 4 sims endlessly, making it impossible to fly anywhere, and all they can do is fixate on whether on not I can prove I got notified. I can show you the notecard to such an encounter. This Linden refused to hear out a half dozen people screaming about being hurt constantly and refused to go have the experience herself for one minute to "get it". She kept harping on whether we could prove notification, and finally left and told me to "contact support".

What was really needed in this instance was a) remove of the script immediately using the power of Linden tools; b) notification of official warning for shooting; c) reassurance that this script is illegal and will be policed.

I demand this of Lindens simply because I've heard that they *have* done this in a few cases at least where the person seems important enough and the land in question seems blocked enough by the bounce script. What I want them to do this is to make this feature of civility available for the rest of us.

poor prokofy got bounced by peoples?
Prok its pure logic, most peoples dont like you, if i was seing you in reach i would push you too ^^