Promote Gun Control

Have you tried Jesrad's magic bracelet yet that you can add spells to? Way more fun than a gun. I also discovered to my great pleasure that it affects people in cars - I was able to knock Eboni to the other side of Miami Beach while she was driving around

For someone is very proud of how they are stiring this up into an issue of "gun control" (One of the most politicly charged subjects in the United States), you sure don't seem to understand how the opposition operates, Prok.

I made that clear back in the first threads on this, Cristiano.

Ban means ban their use and make their use a punishable offense under the TOS. It doesn't mean trying to filter and scrape them off servers, that's too hard. It was never any notion of mine to come up with some complicated tekkie solution like that.

I reasoned that if the Lindens could acquire some grit and just ban these -- a desk option, not a shop or operational option -- they would discourge their manufacturing and sale. Who is going to bother making and selling them when their customers face a TOS violation? The business then dries up.

They are not currently bannable. There is merely the opinion of one qualified Linden -- Lee Linden -- on how to make them "better". This is like saying "let's have locks on guns so kids won't use them" but not gun control.

I call them guns because they are guns. It was not me who thought up the analogy that they are like yahoos with shotguns in their homes who come out on their porches and shoot at the first rustle of leaves and end up shooting dead their first cousins.

Yes, I don't think they will understand sliders or push buttons. You need to be many weeks into this game before you grasp what makes bounce scripts like that work and how to foil them. I know the first time it happened to me I couldn't get it.

The Lindens need to step up to the plate on this one. It's a desk option. They don't even have to rewrite the TOS. It's an internal memo. It says "bounce scripts in safe areas will be treated like the weapons they are *because they push avs without warning*. End of story.

\

Um, yeah. Guns don't kill people, only people with guns kill people LOL.

Two things though:

1) People do sell ToS violating things constantly. Strait-up weapons are one, but they have legit uses too. But sim-clearing nukes, C4, etc are all basicly nothing but griefer tools, and they (from all reports) sell like hotcakes.

2) Since there isn't any manufacturing costs, and a ton of versions of the same concept already exist, nobody will have any reason to stop selling them... Even if sales drop off a bit, it's still a small added income for no loss.

...

Prokofy,

Wow you really underestimate the intelligence of players if you think they can't figure out a simple button that turns on or off being pushed. Making this a TOS violation alone is not going to cut back the griefing substantially - a simple solution like "Don't let my avatar be pushed" would immediately stop the effect of the scripts, TOS violation or not - and people are not as clueless as you seem to think. The button worked perfectly fine in There to prevent people from being knocked over by vehicles - it didn't require a master's degree to understand.

I would prefer "don't let my avatar be pushed" (except by red property ban lines, and then only a smidge, as in, you can't come in here), as they had in There.

Barring that, I would like a clear-cut statement and inclusion in TOS that you can't push people off your property in the manner which has made it so I just don't explore much in this game anymore. I just sit in my regular places and do my little projects. It's a no-man's land out there.

coco

Wow, Cristiano, you really overestimate the ability of the Lindens to keep on taking up complex and time-consuming projects like programming buttons on the UI, hmm?

And you really overestimate the abilities of even very intelligent, college-educated players to master all the buttons on this very confusing game.

Making this a TOS violation alone is cost- and time- free and goes a very long way to getting compliance. A manufacturer who learns that it is a bannable offense will face banning himself. His customers will not buy because they will not be banned. Just 3 good solid cases in the police blotter of "Use of illegal bounce script" and we're done, honestly. You have no idea of the value of deterrence.

Seems to me that you're simply bent on protecting Aimee's idea at all costs, just because she's Aimee. That she made a sweaty Kevlar vest to solve a problem that a Linden can fix with a memo from his desk eludes you. It's just SO important to be right! So important to protect one's own! SO important to protect the bastions of the scripterati!

NEVER important to protect QUALITY OF LIFE AND BRIGHT PEOPLE LIKE BUSTER PEEL!!!!

BRING BACK BUSTER PEEL! BAN BOUNCE SCRIPTS!

Prok, while I understand where you're going and even sympathize with your point to a great extent, I think you picked a bad analogy.

Gun laws are problematic solutions. Without other methods of getting the guns off the streets, they're just words on paper.

SL, however, is a different paradigm. Here we have a (benevolent) dictatorship that has elected to turn the population loose with its own creativity. Not all of that creativity is benevolent but policing it could be a full-time job. I wonder if the Lindens are staffed adequately to handle it? (Serious question, I have no idea).

I love the idea of an option players can turn off to prevent being pushed or bounced. I equate this to my years in MMRPGs -- in most of them, you could turn your PvP switch off or on and if it was off you could never be attacked by another player. The only limitations were usually that your character had to choose to have PvP always on or always off -- or in the more refined systems, timers prevented you from attacking someone and then switching PvP off to be immune to retaliation. It could get pretty complex.

The fact that there is no damage or death in SL probably left the Lindens believing that anti-PvP measures were never necessary. But I can assure everyone who hasn't been in MMRPGs before, that if there is a way for griefers to attack you -- any way at all -- they will find it and they will use it. Count on it.

Bounce scripts are basically nothing more than griefing. If you don't want me flying over your land, fine. Set your land access so I'm not permitted to enter. But don't physically throw me across the world. That's abusive. Give me a switch so your abusive script won't throw me around but will only exclude me from the action radius of the object.

Cindy

OMG, you're SO right! The use of a mouse to click a slider on a computer screen is JUST like the dangerously restricted movement and miserable sweating suffered when wearing a Kevlar vest, and I always think of bad police drama when I click my mouse, too! And banning the push function from scripting is . . . why, it's exactly like a walk in the park through a gentle spring rain with a tame ocelot on a leash! Word!

What, you thought I'd meet a silly, alarmist, melodramatic metaphor with another silly, alarmist, melodramatic metaphor? Sorry, I prefer a kinder, gentler metaphor to one that's like a monkey in a diaper whacking himself in the head with a board.

It's because we are not elitist. We believe in the capabilities of every user.


You were doing so well, not dragging me into things for about 2 weeks. I knew it wouldn't last.


Prok you're trying to use every analogy in the book to make a "push resistance" option sound more complex than it is. If you think using a slider in your preferences is too difficult for the average user, just wait until that user tries to modify their appearance. Dozens of sliders! Truth is, users learn everything they need to know about slider technology on New User Island.

Now, if you're suggesting that the Lindens get tougher on their general harassment policy, I am all for that! 100%. If I get an unwanted orbit from someone I will abuse report them and I want the Lindens to take action. But I still want to be able to take a ride on a push elevator or have a push gunfight with my friends.

For the rest of you, I appreciate your support for the push resistance button or slider. Maybe it's time to pass this along to the Lindens?

Ah, but no he wont, and no they wont. People buy ToS violating items left and right. And that still doesnt make it illegal to create. Or are you going to say its illegal to create them? Sell them? Why?

Protect quality of life! Say no to opressive script-controling, freedom-squashing innanities!

I am in favor of making aggressive, non-notify bounce security scripts (which are different from guns) abuse-reportable (which they probably already are).

i am also in favor of providing the OPTION to turn push off, whether it be a slider or a button.

Whether my avatar can get pushed or not is *NOT* complicated.

What *IS* complicated? Whether i have an AGP card, what my bandwidth setting should be, how many particles I need to show, whether i turn on local lighting... yes, that stuff is hard for new players.

The UI *IS* complicated for new users, but so is every computer program as rich in functionality. Even a click-click-click game like Diablo requires getting used to system options.

"turn off push scripts" is something a child should be able to understand. AND... if we can improve either LL doc or educational info distribution, then anyone with a question about it could easily look it up.

I AM sorry Buster's getting so frustrated.

Did you guys have a little sumthin' happening?



BAN ANYTHING CONFUSING! I DON'T KNOW HOW TO WORK THE BUTTONS!!! I'M NOT A ROCKET SCIENTIST

That was my post to the feedback that was quoted in the lead article. One would have to be an idiot to think you could blackmail LL by threatening to quit. I am not expecting LL to "cave". And I don't want to "penalise everybody".

I just want to be penalized a little less myself.

Exploring this world isn't fun any more. I hardly ever log in anymore because it isn't fun. It seemed like it would be, in fact it used to be, but now the grief outweighs the satisfaction. I'm a very dissatisfied customer, and I think LL should know that, because I'm sure others will feel the same way.

It is not the assholes that bother me. There will always be assholes. Ejection script users don't even realize they are assholes. Assholes make the world more interesting.

What bothers me is LL's lack of appreciation for the draining effects of grief, whether the griefer is intentionally disruptive or just being an idiot. It isn't that LL deosn't care, because they do to some extent. They just don't fully recongnize the various dangers to their world that griefing mentality represents. That makes me reluctant to invest time and energy building things or hosting events, other than experimenting. Now even just exploring is sufficiently frustrating that I'm not going to do it anymore, for the sake of my blood pressure.

Really, SL gets pretty boring if you decide not to do anything frustrating.

Buster

It is kind of ironic, Cindy, that I'm safer in Anarchy Online - and more free to roam the countryside (or much of it anyway) - than I am in this game.

coco

Perhaps, like Gun Control, it would be better to go after the suppliers of these devices.

I know several people that have bought "security orbs," wherein the default is to bounce you home without warning.

Most of the peole who buy them dont seem to change the settings at all. All they are aware of is that they "need security" so they buy "securtity" (an orb).

IMO It is the person making the orb, the fact that they make it as a "single res solution" with no need or encouragement to go into the settings, and making the default set to ridiculously extreme settings that is the problem.

First, a resounding "Booo!" for being against gun control
(but that's off topic), ...

Secondly, I think it is important to keep in mind that guns and weapons are really totally different in SL than in RL.
There really isn't a comparison to make.

A RL gun can cause a lot of harm, the only harm a SL gun can cause is for the *shooter* to be banned. (if they are really unlucky and persistent)

These things are really IRRITANTS not actual dangers, and using "loaded" language (if you excuse the pun) to describe them only exacerbates the problems they cause IMO.

* sigh * why do I even try, you just spit out the same trite bullshit every single time. I have said that I want it to be a punishable TOS violation - but enforcement of that TOS is not enough. It is a TOS violation to shoot someone with a gun, yet people are shot at all the time in SL and blasted all over hell. Talk about a need to be right, you just gloss over all of that because you think you are onto the holy grail of solving this problem. Problem is, you're not. My suggestion was my own, not Aimee's, though hers has merit as well - I just thought I would simply it.

Your idea only halfway gets the job done, Prokofy, if that. It doesn't put any control in the hands of users. The death penalty is a deterrent but people still get murdered every day of the week. I know you like to pat yourself on the back and be all self congratulatory, but at least present a complete, viable solution. TOS enforcement alone is not enough. Funny, people can manage to put on prim hair, but they can't press a button a UI. Not sure what college you were educated in, Prokofy, but I can handle the buttons on the UI just fine, as can most people - you know the big ones that say FLY, INVENTORY, etc. I am sorry such things are a challenge to you.

Let me take Coco's analogy and run with it for a moment. I think examining the processes and success/failure of other systems can be very instructive.

In Anarchy, the world was divided into zones (roughly equivalent to a sim in SL). Each zone was flagged for varying degrees of PvP. (1) No PvP at all; (2) Factional PvP between opposing sides, (3) Full-contact PvP where anyone could attack anyone (these were mostly just the combat arenas by the time I left AO).

In the Factional PvP zones, the problem early was that if you TP'ed in, while you were rezzing objects you could be subjected to attack. In the world of AO, that meant a lurking ambusher could lock you down, prevent you from attacking, and then his buddies gank the crap out of you before you even got control of the keyboard.

The solution Funcom (the Devs) finally came up with was a timer. When you entered a PvP zone, you saw a timer message on your screen that counted down the seconds until you were open to attack. It was 10 or 15 seconds, I believe, which was more than enough to vacate if you were there by mistake.

And, folks, this was a game where weapons actually could do damage and 'kill' your character (resurrecting at your insurance terminal with a brief wait until you recovered your items and shook off the sickness effects). In SL, with far less troublesome consequences (other than annoyance), in a world that is not primarily programmed for combat, we don't even have the defenses against this kind of thing that a partially PvP game like AO already has.

I don't think removing the ability to push is the answer. Neither do I think the Lindens want to spend more customer service resources tracking down and banning the gank-weiners. One simple on/off button on your preferences to disable pushing is all that's required. No CS resource committment (after the programming to add the button). No upset feelings. No more players leaving because they can't even fly around the world in peace. And the push-gamers can still play their games and leave the rest of us in peace.

Cindy

I have a free anti-push script that works. Well, I only tested simple pushes, no idea what a send home attack would do.

I bought a cool script that makes my av phantom. It's hard to walk, but it makes guns useless if the push is physical, like a bullet, because it passes right through you. Again, I have no idea how it will work with a send home attack.

I don't think we should restrict what people do on their land, I would even support owners shooting warned griefers. It's not much different than banning someone, except shooting them is more fun. I would support an "anti-push for the owner/group" button for the land. That way the owner could shoot but not be shot.. muahahaha...

That said.... there should be a warning time reasonable to allow the offending party time to flee. The reach of the attack( not scan) should be limited to the land of the owner. It should be set in the TOS so there are no misunderstanding, something specific... we have the 'standard rule against ruining others fun', but it needs to say "you can do this, but not that...".

More of my opinion of course, love this debate

Don't missunderstand. I agree with this fully. But if Prok is gonna use stupidly-loaded language and be proud of it, I'm gonna run with it.

Yes, but the question is, can you figure out a complicated button that turns being pushed on or off? As Prokofy is quite well versed in the art of pushing buttons, I am shocked at his lack of faith that others can figure out a simple concept.

Oh cool.

http://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=389