Predictions, Please: Is it Gonna Take Some Suits to Stop the *hats?

First statement ...SImply put NO LAWYERS

Second Statment/Question.

To the Ancients that have posted in this thread such as Siggy/Lordfly/Kris and a few others I have recgonized. Don't you find it funny that the Newbs are in such an uproar over this when back in the day we had Lindens chasing Ants and Spam bombs and Alien Abductions....Now we have a mass genre of individuals getting pissed over a simple scripting muck up then claiming terroism.

Im not being negative I am just sitting here Laughing Hysterically as I remember a time when people werent so anal and Gametically correct when it came to situations like this.

What did this little incident teach us.

A. the Grid is not as stable as everyone thinks...Hmm might explain some lag issues.

B. It may explain a bug that needs to be fixed...but cringes at that thought have seen what happens when a bug is fixed 40 other things go bonkers creating even more problems.

C. Is the Bug and Stability being addressed appropriately is it being quickly resolved before this release goes into effect?

D. Does this also point out the need for redundancy of duplication of data for a world of this size...yes it does.

Anyway just my .02$ for what its worth.

Sincerly, Shadow Weaver

*sighs*

Yes, relative to SL I'm a "newb"...though I've been in virtual worlds since the early days of UO. Probably in high tech you're the newb relative to me, when I started in engineering PONG was brand new. Hell, I even stored my first OS on punched paper tape.

You are correct, a lot can be learned from this on a technical level. Hopefully it will lead to improvements.

However I think you're missing the Big Picture here.

First of all I really doubt this was a simple and innocent scripting error...if you do then I know this bridge I can sell you for pennies on the dollar.

Second, and most important, if SL is to succeed as a general purpose virtual space then RL-valued tasks need to move in more than they already have. For that to happen SL can not be viewed as an unimportant 'game' where things like this are shrugged off as amusing.

Once people begin to rely on SL for all or part of their livelihood then I'm afraid legal action against these people will be mandatory. You can't steal a persons money OR time, have it cost them and not expect to face the consequences.

If there are no serious repercussions for damage caused by either stupidity or criminal misbehavior then no one will take virtual space seriously enough to risk their RL-valued time here.

Did you innately know that making a self replicating object would take down the entire grid? I knew from LordFly's zombie invasion but how would new people know this innately?

I'll also reitterate as i've said in other threads, there was no law broken, there was no criminal intent or actions. There was a vunerability in a peice of software which caused it to crash when faced with a ball that infinitely replicated.

I am a relative Newbie, I have seen a lot of drama on this game that has been rather interesting to watch. The one thing I have noticed, is that the norm in here is to assume the worst first. I, myself, have been guilty of doing that same thing, and have felt like a fool after I have found out the facts. I have learned from my mistakes. I really like what you pointed out here Shadow, that the technical issues are a very serious something to be looked at. That alone, would better serve the businesses on the game, if they knew that this type of thing couldn't happen again, rather then getting lawyers in game to go after the ones that 'usurp' the game. So, if everyone is so legal minded, why don't they start with themselves instead of the "all are guilty until proven innocent" way of SL .............. couldn't it just be possible, that even tho a member of a group that has been linked to some stuff........actually DID make a mistake, that the whole group doesn't run around doing what some members do? The "bad ones" are the only ones that are noticed in the first place, they are the ones who made anyone even know that groups name, in the very first place. I know that we all don't necessarily understand what they do, but to condemn them all, for a fews actions, isn't fair, and to do that condemning without getting ALL the facts in, just isn't the right thing to do.

welcome to the forums =)

now log out and stay in world, this is no place for reason

seriously, good post, great insight that many here can't see because they are so entrenched

refreshing perspective

Not that I'm a lawyer, but I wonder if the language in some of the new anti-spamming legislation would lend itself to this.

Based on that, when a virus goes and takes down 1000s of computer because of a Microsoft hole, the person that released the code should bare no responsiblity?

I am going to have to say, that just causing a ball to replicate usually does not cause a sim to crash. The most likey outcome is the plot it was released on becomes full and then the objects stop rezzing. This would be a very differant story had just a few sims been affected, that I can see as an accident. From what I have heard, and what I saw, these balls were all over the grid very quickly. If it is really true that these balls were even on the islands, then that can rule out an accident.

W-Hat has been in existance under it's origional group as long as I can remember, and I joined probably last year. I haven't been keeping up with the jonses, but I beleive the new SA group is due to internal W-Hat drama that has nothing to do with anything outside of W-Hat.

Unless you mean changing their custom title of their group, which is because they get bored of seeing W-hat over their names, so they change it to something silly for a while. For all intents and purposes, it's the same group though, they even keep their old headquarters, it's just a custom title swap.

Remember, jumping to conclusions is easy. Fact-finding takes effort.



People. read this again and again and again until it drives home into your thick skulls. The perpetrator is probably banned already, W-Hat will continue to exist, and the rest of you are not going to get diddly in terms of compensation from them.

Well no, I did not "innately know" since that would suppose I had that knowledge when I was born.

But yes, before I ever entered SL I knew that a self-replication or recursive replication could easily do something like that. And I had done enough reading on the scripting to know they had most likely not plugged all the loop-holes and limitations. But then that came from over three decades of engineering and engineering management so there was nothing "innate" about it.

However, IF I were a betting man...and I'm not...I wouldn't give a plugged nickle for this guys innocence. Sorry but everything from the nature of the group he's in, the name on the object, his previous actions and the self-proclaimed "assholes" comment from the guy that came on to appologize...everything would lead me to the conclusion that these guys just like to screw with other people without their consent.

Did he set out to do in the entire grid? I have no idea. Did he set out to grief someone or some group of people? I think that is obviously a yes.

So, if you go out and make a bomb just to see if you can blow holes in your field but instead it blows up the local elementry school are you still guilty of causing the damage?

Oh you are quite right. But I maintain that those days are going to change. And eventually when you have large corporations that have been taken serious RL damage you'll be finding things operating a bit differently.

As for "thick skulls" perhaps it's some of these self-proclaimed "assholes" thick skulls that need to understand that the days of the internet 'old west' are nearly gone. Learn civilized behavior or get cut out.

Actually, yes.

I'm no scriptor, I'm basically a "point-and-click" girl, but even I understand that you can overload ANY computer if you send it enough information too quickly. "Self Replicating Objects" of the nature of these can be seen as nothing else but a "weapon" against any computer grid by anyone with two working brain cells.

Ol might not have guessed the extent of how much damage his GreifSpheres would do, but unless someone made them for him, he knew thier basic purpose.

And if someone made the script for him, then the originator is at fault. Either way, this GreifSphere appears to have been made for malicious purposes. If you see a way to "accidentaly" make something of this nature, then please feel free to explain how to LL so they can patch up that problem.

Also, "new to SL" does not infer "new to scripting/coding".

As to "...no criminal intent or actions. There was a vulnerability...", there is also a vulnerablitiy in that if you shoot a fuel tank with an incinidary round it will explode. It is a vulnerability of the human body that it bleeds when stabbed with a sharp knife. It is a vulnerability that houses burn down when ignited by arsonists. Criminal intent or actions are the abuse of vulnerabilities.

Perhaps LL should have forseen this and taken steps agasint it. They can't see everything and it is beside the point. It's easy to sit back after the event and say "If we had done this, it never would have happened."

~Jessy

Well said Jessica!

I have constantly, through the years since early UO, been amazed by those that can't seem to comprehend the simple distinction between right and wrong. Those that think because local 'physics' allows it then it must be OK to do it no matter how it affects the people around them have always baffled me with their rather juvinile logic.

I've watched griefers and exploiters over the years use the same tired old excuses of how the system 'allows' it so blame the programmers not them.

A quibble.

My zombies never "brought down the grid"; they never even came close. They were capped at 14 zombies per sim, moved extremely slowly, and were fairly efficiently coded. They didn't crash a single sim, nor did they cause one person to relog. Their weakness was in no-script zones and human nature.

The zombies acted EXACTLY as designed; it was a result of human nature that the event failed (pressing the abuse report button instead of pulling out a Seburo).

Ergo, a "zombie" attack is quite different from a GrieferSphere.

LF

It appears they got the attention they were looking for

MJ

Where's the poll option "Everyone give a few dollars so we can hire a hitman" - that's what I want to know.

Every single virus writer who has been apprehended by authorities, claims it was a little piece of code, that by mistake ran wild. "I had no idea, the virus was gonna spread and take down half the Internet" It still doesn't make it ok, and there are laws on the books that can deal with it. All we get is a psuedo half assed apology? Then again, if I were him/her I wouldn't talk to anyone but my lawyer.

Eh, actually I was told by some W-hatters that the group had been disbanded and another formed. I am not talking about the the SA Goons change over to W-hat, by the way. I guess they were misleading me. *Shrug*

To be clear, my point is - that regardless of claims I have heard to the contrary, the group still exists, whatever the titles, or names, or group name may be.

LOL. While the honor requirements of my group does not encourage such tactics... I see no ruling which states we have to stop the bullet.

"Assasination is efficient, inexpensive, and deals with the problem directly." (Note: NOT contained in the Elf Clan charter. But in some cases... LOL)

"Stress is the result of being unable to strangle someone who richly deserves it."

Hopefully too much attention. Hopefully the kind of attention that states, "Last attention you're going to receive here." And maybe, since this took down the entire grid, a little bit of RL "attention" too.

If I owned a $$$megagillion dollar company and someone took down my grid, excuses wouldn't go very far. And "oops" wouldn't cut it. Because my first question would be, "Why are your fingerprints on the gun?"

I'd see what groups the user belongs too. I'd check if the user has a history of causing problems (in this case, this user surely did. He had been banned from sims and lands before for inexcusable activity).

Copping excuses and claiming innnocence is an old W-Hat method. They've done so ever since I joined SL, and that's pretty near a year now. I'm glad to see other users are also aware of these facts. Linden Lab has pretty much taken the concept that "anarcy has a place on SL". Not on OUR sims. Not when we're paying the bills. If W-Hat wants anarchy... let them buy their own sim and don't take even a step beyond their borders.

As for those taken in by the concept that supposedly the old W-Hat group was closed and another re-formed-- sometimes when a reputation has been earned, a new name and charter is required. You don't open up a new group with the same name and concepts and expect people to view it as "Oh, well, that's ok then."

People always claim innocence when it comes time to face the judge. Doesn't mean they are.

Thanks for taking my statement out of context, it's not like I was talking about the fact that it was something that was coded for one purpose but turned into something else unintended. Oh I forgot, there's only one true perspective, dicks to the rest.

The W-hat guys can't be all bad, I saw them once and they were disguised as pirates. Pirates rox.

The GriefSphere was probably an innocent joke that backfired because the scripter wasn't wearing a pirate costume when he made it (and so suffered from total lameness and brain damage).

We will probably never know the truth, unless eyewitnesses can tell us about the scripter's attire at the time the dramatic event started.

You know, I don't care WHAT the dude was wearing. He took down the grid.

And as has been said on thread after thread in these forums, this guy was NOT an "innocent newbie" who just made a mistake. He had already been banned from several lands and sims for intolerable behavior. Whether he intended to take down the entire grid or not... who can say? Did he intend to set a nuke device? It doesn't matter. He has a record, and if you're holding the smoking gun, intent is implied, no matter how much ya cry and whine.

Same old W-Hat song, and in the past, they've been shown to be under 18. Given this repeated pattern of W-Hats who create trouble typically being under-age (a certain teen from Canada who hacked the client and released source code to make objects comes to mind), how about everyone who's ever been in the group being required to FAX in proof of birth date?

Easy enough? If that gets done, I think we'll see the number at about 50 instead of 400.

Regards,

-FlipperPA/Commerce

Hey, they should FAX in proof of age AND I.Q.

And because nobody posted this yet...
http://www.somethingawful.com/legal/
You'll notice they LAUGH at lawsuit threats. (At least the threats they post are kinda funny though.)