Second Hell Tourbus: worst places in SL

Artemis,

This isn't about freedom of the press.
This is about State Sponsored press breaking the State's TOS/CS

This service, and it's best of/worst of lists (mentioned previously to be pay/spite, respectively), are going to be promoted by the Lindens in the Info-hubs and the WA.

Yes, the Linden's have 4 channels on Info-Net... but the Info-hubs are not restricted to those 4 channels. In addition, paying customers are, in effect, subsidizing their own abuse because the money they give the Lindens is being used in part to support t6he Info-Net that carries content that abuses them.

If you want a parallel metaphor, it would be like the US Gov't paying for commercial time on the TBN. This channel carries programming that is inherently hostile to many subgroups in America, subgroups that pay taxes that would be being used to pay for and support the TBN. Although the US Gov't does not, at this time, engage in such practices, since there would be much howling long and loud if it did, the scenario is the same. The Lindens claim no editorial control of the content on the InfoNet. That's fine. But don't support the Net that provides programming that defames paying customers either, or you may find that those customers no longer feel the need to pay for their own abuse.

I also think it is very bad public relations to have the LL name associated with something like a spite list. And if it isn't a spite list, please have them publish the OBJECTIVE criteria used to determine who gets on the HellTour and who doesn't, because right now, it looks like LL has a hand in defaming its own customer base.
In marketing, appearances are all that matters.

Re: "Freedom of the press." This is a right given to the press by US documents, but it doesn't mean that all members of the press exercise it.

Any real life publication has to be careful of what it prints, for a multitude of reasons. If a newspaper runs an article blatently against the school government, the school government would be very unwilling to cooperate for future stories. I don't mean newspapers should stay quiet on a story that sheds bad light on the school. But most all government entities understand that newspapers have a job to do and respect fairness and accuracy in reporting.

An article could also result in a lawsuit, even if every bit of it is true. I once wrote an article about a man who worked for a rival newspaper. He also worked as a dj. At one event, a small child tripped over wire that the dj had left out when setting up his equipment. When he tripped, he knocked some equipment over. The dj started screaming obscenities at the child.
The article I wrote was nothing but truth and based on eyewitness accounts. Yet the man attempted to sue the paper I worked for. If I had over-exaggerated in any way, my goose would have been cooked.

The Second Hell Tourbus is unethical because they give a one-sided account of what they consider to be less desirable places. A more fair approach would be to interview people who describe what is wrong, then give the owner of that build or business a chance to respond. But many businesses/publications in SL and FL are unethical.

The M2 did an article on infoNet in its very first issue, and I interviewed Squagmire. I was very impressed with her work and with her intelligence and communication skills. I don't understand why she has this channel in her service; surely it's not just because a customer paid to have it there. I hope that she will remove it.

they are asking merchants for free samples of goods that they will have
an "independent" panel of anonymous judges rate and discuss in
their publications. they plan, I was told, to pit new makers of things
against even very experienced makers of things, (my source was asked
to submit her first ever made shirt and was going to be judged against
experienced makers. when she explained it was her first ever shirt,
the contact for GNAT industries STILL encouraged the person to submit
for judgement (harassment?) They will judge anonymously and
likely unfairly (looking at past performance) and pit items against
one another regardless of price or intended market. It is mean spirited
to judge and publish such arbitrary judgements in a magazine. Any
useful evaluative system should include a measure of transparency.


I'd no sooner send Infonet / gnat products to evaluate than stick
my hand in a bowl full of pirhannas, personally. I also am
aware of Dione's fabulous products and have owned her microphone
among other things. she does first rate builds. These people are
clearly grinding their own personal axes.

This is in keeping with LL recent policy, though, to allow for griefing
of sl's creators in the forums as well. Since the star system can be
used by alts (unlike polls), the "ratings"are anonymous, and no
accountability level whatsoever is established for the rater, it is very
easy for a griefer or worse yet a group of them to make life difficult
for someone they are targeting.

I'd like to see LL find ways to encourage builders rather than discourage
them. After all, is it really Your world Your imagination? or is it Dare
to Build (come on, really, we dare ya, *snicker*).

Okay, I think I was clued out on the nature of the thing there. They offer the service but dont generate the lists?

In that case I agree with you, but perhaps they could have perused the subject matter a bit more carefully then.

Correct... another patron of the service generates the list...

The issue arises because, like it or not, Linden Lab is not just your average consumer. They are the government.
They have power and influence to put this infonet anywhere on the map... and they are planning to put them in the Info-hubs and in the WA for newcomers to see and form opinions about other residents with.

LL IS the local government.
You think not?
Ask a "Landowner" what happens when they don't pay their "Taxes".

As such, a government has a responsibility to not support a mdium that is a conduit for breahes of its own law. At the very least, it is bad publoc policy to support a supporter of lawlessness. A worst case scenario puts it as absolutely hypocritical to turn a blind eye to this kind of "Content". At the very least, even if Info-Net won't take editorial responsibility for what they convey on their pipeline, put the hammerlock on the people using Info-Net for breach of TOS.

I own land in SL. I pay monthly fees called tier not taxes. I think LL is a company.

I liken tier to the monthly fees I pay to the gym. I can go there anytime since it is open 24/7, just like SL.

On behalf of Gnat Technologies, I would like to point you to yesterday's announcement.

During the past 48 hours, we have been unable to contact the authors of the Second Hell Tourbus in reguard to potential breaches of the Second Life Terms of Service. As such, the Second Hell Tourbus has had all publishing access on the infoNet suspended, pending investigation and evaluation for breaches of the Second Life Terms of Service.

I'm glad to hear that, Squagmire.

Fine, Margaret... You want to take the metaphor in that direction, let's do.

If the Gym you belonged to advertised in a newspaper or on a channel that heaped abuse upon the African American community, and they did not respond to your requests to not support that media venue any firther and they not only ignored your requests, but made sure that the channel in question with their advertising was on every television, or the paper that had their ads, and the abusive editorials, was at every doorway... would you continue to pay them your monthly membership? Even if they were the only gym in town?

Squagmire,

I am heartened to hear this.
Thank you for your more rapid and decisive response than could be counted on from LL.

It IS appreciated.
You have just earned a customer.

omg i got one of those and forgot about it til just now. If i didn't respond, does that mean nocturnal threads will be on the Hell tour????!!!!

RAWK ON!

dammn mere peoples are so full of themselve these days

LL can do anything they wish with their telehubs

and so many fake reasons to shutdown a press you disagree with. free press or none
i find this tourbus thing pretty amusing, at least you have something to read when there is nothing precise to do.

Really if you are in it or not what is the big deal? it will hurt your oh so pwecious buziness?
Personally i would see it as free adverts and be happy with that.

Sl lack of controversial stuffs, come on your only wish is to live in a cotton cocoon ? there is padded cells for that

So now they are leveraging their privileged position to get free stuff. Who saw that coming?

The UK has had quangos for years, and every single one has become corrupt in some way.. we don't need the same thing in SL, really.

Excuse me? This activity has not just started. Your statement is incendiary.

When the presentation has been made to people that they should submit and
if they respond politely declining because the designers feel they are not ready,
but then are Still pressured to submit, I'd say it has already started, Margaret.

Kyrrah, maybe you enjoy seeing undeserving people put down and humiliated
(people who aren't tied to racks willingly that is. lol) I find this deeply unjust
and I think that if we want this to be a place where we encourage growth and
innovation to name businesses and persons someone doesn't like in obvious
blacklists that are IN THE WELCOME AREA is a reeeeeeely bad idea.

I am happy, Squagmire, to see that the tourbus is mostly dismantled (when
I looked last night two names remained on it, though). I really hope to use
Infonet in the future as a way to distribute information about the Foundation
for Rich Content. I won't support that, though, unless the infonet seems
unbiased and fair. After all, imagine if some hate group went after the very
sponsors who are giving money to the FFRC: that would not make our sponsors
happy. And I want to be clear about one thing: though the tour bus was
allegedly a third-party publisher, the worst of lists were to be generated by GNAT industries. That is not really a third party, is it? That would be like me saying
that one business i own that does something in another business's building has
nothing to do with me because it is a different business.

Please, Squagmire, keep your service useful and interesting, but don't use it
as a weapon to bash people. That utterly undermines it and makes it
wose than useless.

The post I quoted was "So now they are leveraging...". They have done this before as you verify in your response here. So how are they now leveraging their power if this is not a new activity?

The infonet carries stuff that denigrates the African American community? Wow, I didn't know that. That pisses me off and I'm not even African American.

Bringing in the race card here to try to make a point is kind of silly, Alain.

This is not about race, Margaret, and you know it... stop picking at the buttons and look at the SHIRT!

If you are unable to comprehend the concept of a metaphoric parallel, that's fine. BUt don't keep picking it apart on details have nothing to do with the issue at hand. You have a history of being selectively dense when topics are discussed in metaphor and euphemism. Now I understand why a lot of people choose to ignore your commentary when such are used.

This is not about race. It is not about Taxes, per se.

It is about LL giving preferential support to a media venue that carried(Past tense, thank you Squagmire Stravinski) a channel product that broke the TOS.

Some people could not understand why other people are up in arms about that.
Similarly offensive scenarios were presented as teaching tools...
metaphor and simile are often used as teaching tools...
A is to B as C is to D.
If you were not instructed using those tools, then you are probably not able to intuit beyond absolutes either. Too bad.

If you were instructed using such tools and are simply being deliberately dense, then I am just as sorry for you... but for different reasons.

Which is it, Margaret?

But its so unfair to the one targeted.

Since my original post I heard about the circumstances that led to listing Diones designs as the worst in SL, and was told that the problem was caused by an SL update causing scripting malfunctions. I also learned that Dione made good on all those affected by the problem.

This was not fraud or abuse caused by Dione and she never should have been placed on that hate list. This seems more like a personal vendetta, especially since the situation that allegedly caused this member to end up on the Infonet shit list may have been caused by LL itself!

I understand your point about freedom of expression, and in my heart I agree that censorship of editorial content is a dangerous slippery slope. Perhaps the best way would be to have a consumer protection forum, sort of a trouble shooter better business forum, that would allow these issues to be addressed and to warn others I just fear it would turn into a vehicle for venting personal animosity and sheer mud slinging.

I am all for a consumer rights organization that is transparent. I think, for example, having the courage to say who one is when one is giving information is important. If one is making an assertion of fact, one should be prepared to back that up. That IS the responsibility of the media, is it not? To anonymously publish blacklists is not responsible, and is in fact unethical.

As for margaret's post, I misunderstood your emphasis. Do you mean to say that a company with LL support has pressured people to get free items and then planned to publicly blacklist the same people they are getting items from is a common occurance? When has this happened before? I still don't think we are on the same page. This is happening now and continues to happen to my knowledge at the discretion of GNAT. Has LL backed public blacklisting companies before? And have those companies required submissions from those to be blacklisted? And has that blacklist then been published in the welcome area?

You seemed to be saying that a poster was incindiary for noting that this was happening now, but it wouldn't be incindiary to note that this has been a constant? Please help me understand because it seems as though you think that anonymous blacklisting in the welcome area is a desirable thing.

Do you realize that choosing racism as a metaphorical topic is called playing the race card to elicit an emotional response or are you simply being deliberately dense? Silly is the nicest thing I could come up with to describe your use of it here.

I also don't like having people push their view on others which I felt you were doing by insisting that LL is the government. A reminder that LL is a company was in order since I wasn't sure if you were being deliberately delusional or just didn't get that.

Btw, I am looking at the shirt, that being informational centers which I consider to be a good idea. I think buttons on that shirt are being sought to pick at because folks are unhappy over their losses relative to P2P which is indeed understandable. I felt the same way in that debate; LL is a company and it's not my business if they choose to reimburse those customers who have significantly invested in and supported their platform.

The posts from LL and representatives of infonet have been calm and professional. The concern which started this thread has been addressed. Do you have a problem with Squagmire's statement to that effect?

I am glad to hear the Second Hell Tourbus has been suspended. However, I think it should be expelled. I do not believe the Lindens should allow such content that goes against their TOS Participant Conduct.

I do have a problem with that statement because GNAT industries is planning a like venture of bashing merchants is in the exact same vein. Therefore, the correction in policy wasn't comprehensive nor was it permanent. Suspended for how long? and who was the third party to start with?

If you are referring to the Tourbus section it is permanent. This section will no longer be a part of the infoNet network.

I'm not sure what "bashing of merchants" you are referring to, but if you could explain (either here or IM me in world) then I can attempt to clear it up.

I hope that answers your question.

hmmm just a thought...

After participateing in SL for a couple months and been an avid reader of the forums I have come to the conclusion of one thing, LL is very possibly a group of anthropological psychiatrists who are just pulling the strings of the SL members for research.

Why else would a company make a game and allow others to destroy it? The recent attacks on the grids can easily be stopped by banning those responcible. And I'm talking banned completely, not just a couple weeks. By telling them they can return it's like telling them to do it again. Just ban the entire group of those responcibe and send a message out that grid attacks will not go un-punished.

And the subject of this thread as well could be a subject of research. The SL Hell list can only be allowed and sponcered by LL. Obviously since, it is not being removed they agree with it.

The list does have it's merits. I for one would not want my name on that list and would therefore strive to make my land and stores look nice. I have traveled ALOT in SL and seen several properties that people SHOULD be warned about not to go there.

If people would build responcibly there would be no reason for this list.

I don't agree that there should be such a list but hey, I don't believe there should be all these "furbies" running around either. One persons tastes are not the same as anothers and in SL you should be able to do what you want.....within reason.