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Second Hell Tourbus: worst places in SL |
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Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
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12-10-2005 10:52
The big irony here is when you compare this to the neg rates. If LL thinks its so "wrong" to negatively rate people (even if they are assholes), how is it that Linden themselves can run a service that essentially negatively rates select members? The logic is astounding. Yeah, I'm really confused about this. If the subjects of their list were to AR them, would there be any consequences? _____________________
http://churchofluxe.com/Luster
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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12-10-2005 11:23
Yeah, I'm really confused about this. If the subjects of their list were to AR them, would there be any consequences? Talk about a mixed message. Deriding, flaming, harassing another member is the same event whether its on the Linden Lab provided SL forum, or contained in Linden Lab endorsed content located at the WA and hubs. Yeah...right...so much for evenhanded, consistent application of the TOS/CS. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-10-2005 11:23
Did the Linden in charge of setting this up not do a simple review of the services InfoNet offers? You would think a very standard "gap analysis" would be in order which would, as it's first stage, list these services. Someone would have been sitting in an office looking at a flip chart that lists the things InfoNet provides (among them the "worst of" list), then this someone would have to not even notice that this could be a problem? Why would they, Dianne? They're using infonet for its tech, not for its other content, which comes from other customers of infonet. Infonet is a service provider. The content is from people using the service. If Burger King has a really moronic ad in the newspaper does it reflect poorly on the furniture company ad on page three? If there's an editorial I disagree with, or think is obnoxious, does that have anything at all to do with anything else in the paper? _____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-10-2005 11:26
So we can place a newspaper at the WA and hub sites that names names and flame or list other members and lable them the worst SL has to offer and that is protected editorial speech. But, if I post the same statement here on the forum its a TOS/CS violation. I think the forum should be fair game also. I agree with you that a worst of list is mean spirited and in poor taste, but if we make rules that you can't do that sort of thing, what kind of in-world press are we going to have? In real life would you read a newspaper that was nothing but press releases and feel-good stories? It seems to me that freedom of the press is rather important. If I'd change anything it would be for in-world publications to refuse to publish anything from anonymous authors. Any ire over the worst of SL list should be directed at the author. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-10-2005 11:28
FYI, whenever I create a notecard kiosk, I always set it up so that it keeps track of how many notecards it has given out and make that information viewable to everyone. If you look in the object description field of the kiosk you'll see how many notecards have been distributed (I just checked and it's currently 60  .Just to clarify on this issue: Is this a newspaper rack (ie, something that distributes other people's papers) or an actual newspaper? |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-10-2005 11:29
There should never be a list of any kind on Linden Land which is created by another resident. There should never be any editorial content from specially-privileged residents on Linden land.
We don't need to get this sort of information out to the people. We don't need to have any of this at ALL on Linden land, whether at telehub areas or at Welcome Areas. None of these businesses have any business getting a free ride on Linden lands, much less being readable on Linden lands, much LESS charging other residents for inclusion, for their own profit. A list of newspapers by Pathfinder is one thing (one which virtually any newspaper could be on). Having the actual newspapers, businesses, Infonet business, and other message content on Linden lands opens up more problems than any supposed problem it solves. Having vendors of any kind that belong to individual resident businesses on Linden land is never appropriate. If the Lindens want to dispense their own information on official Linden lands, they should figure out another way to do it than through the horribly biased Infonet. It surely can't be that difficult. What is the kind of information that would be good to have on Linden land? 1. Latest Linden announcements and notices, including, for instances, announcements about charity events. 2. Advertisements from residents, as we now have. 3. Possibly a yellow pages where any citizen can be included, free of charge, while paying more for a large ad type of listing. (And paying that to Lindens, not to another individual resident.) 4. Possibly a list of events currently going on in the area served by that telehub. Period. coco _____________________
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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12-10-2005 11:32
Why would they, Dianne? They're using infonet for its tech, not for its other content, which comes from other customers of infonet. Infonet is a service provider. The content is from people using the service. If Burger King has a really moronic ad in the newspaper does it reflect poorly on the furniture company ad on page three? If there's an editorial I disagree with, or think is obnoxious, does that have anything at all to do with anything else in the paper? If Burger King puts a newspaper vendor inside its front door and that vendor distributes BK menus and news items as well as some other broadly offensive material from a third party source, you can be assured that we would hold BK responsible. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-10-2005 11:37
If Burger King puts a newspaper vendor inside its front door and that vendor distributes BK menus and news items as well as some other broadly offensive material from a third party source, you can be assured that we would hold BK responsible. Oh, really? So if you're in someplace like a Starbucks and happen to buy a copy of the New York Times (that maybe Starbucks had coupons in) with your latte, and there was something in the newspaper that offended you, you'd hold Starbucks responsible? Interesting. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-10-2005 11:42
Oh, really? So if you're in someplace like a Starbucks and happen to buy a copy of the New York Times (that maybe Starbucks had coupons in) with your latte, and there was something in the newspaper that offended you, you'd hold Starbucks responsible? Interesting. I get what you are saying, Chip. But Starbucks is a store, full of people and cups of coffee. There is a vendor in it for newspapers. Starbucks is the official Starbucks, and it ends at their door. It is clear that they are not the New York Times. Second Life is a huge landscape, with a few places indicated as official - namely the telehubs, welcome areas, orientation and help islands. Second Life as a whole is owned by LL (Starbucks) and everyone realizes that. But when people travel around the vast landscape to get to the small, discrete areas that clearly represent the Lindens, they are going to naturally assume that the Lindens are in charge of that area, and that it reflects them. The telehubs and welcome areas are not clearly set aside - as is the New York Times vendor or other reading material racks - as something clearly incidental to the true official function of LL (Starbucks). On the contrary, they are areas highlighted as specifically, and more than anything else, representive of LL (Starbucks). When people arrive at the official Linden areas (Starbucks proper), they naturally conclude that whatever is in there is Linden sanctioned. They would not conclude that the New York Times is Starbucks sanctioned, or that everything in it is Starbucks sanctioned. They are led to conclude that things in the small, discrete, specifically-LL areas are very much intended to be taken as LL sanctioned. What is in the official Linden areas is not totally incidental to SL, in the sense that the newspaper vendor or reading rack is clearly incidental to Starbucks. In fact, it achieves hightened status, meaning, and sanction merely by appearing in the official Linden areas. coco _____________________
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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12-10-2005 11:47
Oh, really? So if you're in someplace like a Starbucks and happen to buy a copy of the New York Times (that maybe Starbucks had coupons in) with your latte, and there was something in the newspaper that offended you, you'd hold Starbucks responsible? Interesting. Yes. But perhaps a more appropriate example would be your City Civic Center. EDIT: I believe that you understand what I am saying here, Chip. To highlight my stance in particular, though, "worst of" and other controversial material should not be included at the WA. I don't care to eliminate residents' editorial views, I just don't want it to be part of the new residents' first impressions. _____________________
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-10-2005 11:50
Yes, but LL is trying to get other resident publications at the telehubs along with infonet so not only will it be a source for Linden info, but also a news stand. If you take away infonets right to publish something like the worst of list (no matter how ill advised it was for them to publish) then you have to look at the precedent being set. It would mean that people would be able to restrict what ANY publication distributed at the hubs can print. If I see sensationalistic or mean spirited content in a paper or publication I just stop reading it. I think it reflects poorly on the publication, not the place I happened to get the publication. I don't read the Herald anymore because I find too much of its content to be sensationalistic conspiracy theory, but if they want too keep publishing that kind of stuff that many people other than me will think of as rubbish, that's their right. It doesn't come without consequences. Do we want a free press? Or do we only want to allow what's politically correct and candy coated enough that no one will be offended? Think long and hard about that. The issue here is much bigger than this one worst of list.
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My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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12-10-2005 11:53
Yes, but LL is trying to get other resident publications at the telehubs along with infonet so not only will it be a source for Linden info, but also a news stand. If you take away infonets right to publish something like the worst of list (no matter how ill advised it was for them to publish) then you have to look at the precedent being set. It would mean that people would be able to restrict what ANY publication distributed at the hubs can print. If I see sensationalistic or mean spirited content in a paper or publication I just stop reading it. I think it reflects poorly on the publication, not the place I happened to get the publication. I don't read the Herald anymore because I find too much of its content to be sensationalistic conspiracy theory, but if they want too keep publishing that kind of stuff that many people other than me will think of as rubbish, that's their right. It doesn't come without consequences. Do we want a free press? Or do we only want to allow what's politically correct and candy coated enough that no one will be offended? Think long and hard about that. The issue here is much bigger than this one worst of list. Agree in principal, however, see above re first impressions. _____________________
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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12-10-2005 11:53
Strikes me as being more like the Metro free paper that's distributed in a lot of cities around the world. They have deals with whatever authority controls the mass transit system to be able to have stacks of their papers in stations. Judging by the ones in London and Philadelphia, it's very deliberately middle-of-the-road, pieces from newswires, a few celeb interviews, a few cartoons, sports. Anything that causes complaint could reflect badly on the authority in question who might withdraw their monopoly deal, so they don't want to do that.
(Should be noted of course that a "middle-of-the-road" stance is, in fact, a stance as definite as any extreme position. But it's less likely to cause problems.) It's not a perfect analogy though. Most importantly, LL are not a public authority, there are no elected officials, so they're going to be less concerned about negative publicity within the game, unless it's so extreme that people quit, and that's unlikely. I like the InfoNet system generally, and I find Second Hell Tourbus pretty funny, but then I like scurrilous stuff. I'm more concerned about advertising and the criteria that let people publish and be linked to on InfoNet and in Linden areas. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-10-2005 12:02
Yes, but LL is trying to get other resident publications at the telehubs along with infonet so not only will it be a source for Linden info, but also a news stand. I'm still not sure on this - I've yet to see that there were actually looking for new publications instead of attractive objects that would distribute existing publications. If you take away infonets right to publish something like the worst of list (no matter how ill advised it was for them to publish) then you have to look at the precedent being set. It would mean that people would be able to restrict what ANY publication distributed at the hubs can print. Um, well, up until a few days ago, Linden pretty much disallowed there being any publications at the hubs. At all. I don't recall anyone complaining about that.. in fact it was considered a good idea. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-10-2005 12:07
I'm still not sure on this - I've yet to see that there were actually looking for new publications instead of attractive objects that would distribute existing publications. here We'd like to provide media outlets the opportunity to place news in WA and other linden areas. Pathfinder set up kiosks on 11/10/05 asking for anyone who wants to participate in newspaper vending 'racks' in the Welcome Area and other Linden land to let him know. So far we've had not one single response. The idea is to provide a variety of news sources in public areas, much like you see on the streets in major cities. _____________________
My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-10-2005 12:15
here Exactly - this states that they are looking for a newspaper vending rack. It was not clear - at least, not to me - that this indicated they're looking for a new newspaper too. If someone asks me to make them a clothes vendor, I don't usually think I'm being asked to design clothes. |
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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12-10-2005 12:18
It does say "participate in newspaper vending 'racks'", rather than "provide newspaper vending 'racks'".
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-10-2005 12:26
Then, if there is to be a newspaper rack for all kinds of papers to participate, Infonet should be SUBSUMED into said newspaper rack, and merely listed and linked therein.
Infonet should not be there in a stand-alone capacity, in a vendor of its own. coco _____________________
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-10-2005 12:53
Then, if there is to be a newspaper rack for all kinds of papers to participate, Infonet should be SUBSUMED into said newspaper rack, and merely listed and linked therein. Infonet should not be there in a stand-alone capacity, in a vendor of its own. InfoNet isn't a vendor though - it's a screen with variable textures. There's not really any way it could be "linked to" without teleporting the viewer away (well, I suppose the stand could hand out laptop clients). Of course, this does make it awkward if others will have the same opportunity, as we could wind up with a "video wall" in each telehub.  (Thinks about Mr. Universe from Serenity ) |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-10-2005 13:25
InfoNet isn't a vendor though - it's a screen with variable textures. There's not really any way it could be "linked to" without teleporting the viewer away (well, I suppose the stand could hand out laptop clients). Of course, this does make it awkward if others will have the same opportunity, as we could wind up with a "video wall" in each telehub. (Thinks about Mr. Universe from Serenity )Then, whatever it is, get rid of it. Mention it in the Linden sign about newspapers and other sources of information. Take the Linden information and put it in a separate place - there is no need for Linden information to be associated with Infonet in the first place. coco _____________________
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Katt Kongo
M2 Publisher
Join date: 9 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,020
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12-10-2005 13:28
We'd like to provide media outlets the opportunity to place news in WA and other linden areas. Pathfinder set up kiosks on 11/10/05 asking for anyone who wants to participate in newspaper vending 'racks' in the Welcome Area and other Linden land to let him know. So far we've had not one single response. The idea is to provide a variety of news sources in public areas, much like you see on the streets in major cities. While it's possible no one is interested, my guess is that no one has heard about this idea. Which is why we need more grid wide communication systems like InfoNet. And as those systems proliferate, we'll be able to put together a communications plan that actually reaches more and more residents, using multiple media options. This is actually the first time I have heard of this. Edited to add: I don't understand why LL could not have made the effort to contact various media sources to inform them that they could participate in this. For example, if one of the Lindens had contacted me, not only would I have agreed to participate, I would have had this information in the M2 so that maybe other media sources could participate too. _____________________
The Metaverse Messenger
A real newspaper for a virtual world. Now with over 63,000 readers! http://www.metaversemessenger.com |
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
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12-10-2005 13:29
If I were to publish a list of the worst places in SL, tag my list Second Hell, name names and places,,,hand my list out in world and perhaps post it on the forums... wow, how long would it take for me to be AR and sanctioned by LL. A New York minute I would guess. Isn't that pretty much what all the threads about the Impeach Bush signs are doing? _____________________
hush
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Pathfinder Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 507
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12-10-2005 13:50
This is actually the first time I have heard of this. Edited to add: I don't understand why LL could not have made the effort to contact various media sources to inform them that they could participate in this. For example, if one of the Lindens had contacted me, not only would I have agreed to participate, I would have had this information in the M2 so that maybe other media sources could participate too. I deliberately didn't contact any specific media sources at first because I wanted to see if the kiosks I placed would catch anyone's attention (I guess it didn't work  ). Also, this isn't a "one time call for media sources then it's closed" kind of thing. I will be constantly adding media sources to this effort.-Pathfinder _____________________
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Katt Kongo
M2 Publisher
Join date: 9 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,020
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12-10-2005 14:05
I deliberately didn't contact any specific media sources at first because I wanted to see if the kiosks I placed would catch anyone's attention (I guess it didn't work ). Also, this isn't a "one time call for media sources then it's closed" kind of thing. I will be constantly adding media sources to this effort.-Pathfinder I understand your intent better now. But I would think that placing information at hub kiosks doesn't garner much attention because no one sticks around hubs long enough to read anything. Perhaps that will change when 1.8 arrives, but even then, I can't picture anyone who isn't a newbie will be spending much time in the hubs. _____________________
The Metaverse Messenger
A real newspaper for a virtual world. Now with over 63,000 readers! http://www.metaversemessenger.com |
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Artemis Fate
I'm a big stupid-face.
Join date: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
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12-10-2005 14:09
If I were to publish a list of the worst places in SL, tag my list Second Hell, name names and places,,,hand my list out in world and perhaps post it on the forums... wow, how long would it take for me to be AR and sanctioned by LL. A New York minute I would guess. But guess who is getting away with that right now, and with the blessings of LL? You got it....Infonet. INFONET!! The so called SL information system placed at WA and hubs by Linden Lab. First when you look at the Infonet terminal you encounter a large icon you can click to access the category "Second Hell Tourbus...the worst places in SL." Once you click you get buttons with various notes to guide us throuh the worse SL has to offer. This is what I found today at the Welcome Area Infonet terminal: First stop on the Second Hell tourbus was "Dione's Designs." I have never been there but I bet old Dione is a paying member of SL and doesnt appreaciate beiing the first stop on the LL sanctioned directory list of the worst places in SL. The description of just what is wrong with poor old Diones build has been replaced with some comments about law suits, but old Diones name remains top on the list. Another part of the list of worst places in SL includes a section entitled "walls & people scoops." Who have we here on this Second Hell Tourbus stop? When you click you receive a note card that lists these following member builds as the worst in SL: Freebies & More Hot Gear Warmouth Telehub Stores Shinda Telehub Bear Telehub Mall How interesting that the this "objective" Linden Lab santioned directory for the profit of one member that charges for inclusion in the directory is allowed to violate the TOS/CS with Linden blessings, at the WA, and at hubs. What does infonet have to say about this list of second hell places? The note the infonet terminal gives out on this states: Second Hell Tourbus Intro: Welcome to Hell --------------------- The Second Hell Tourbus is a weekly tour of Second Life's worst places and people. We're talking the ugliest offensive builds, the most expensive stores, worlds biggest rip offs, and the con-artists of SL. We will take you on a tour through hell.... and you'll thank us for it. Welcome to the tourbus. --------------------- Disclaimer: InfoNet Systems is not responsible for articles relating to the Second Hell Tourbus as they are controlled by a third party publishing group. As a result, InfoNet Systems is un-able to answer any queries relating to the Second Hell Tourbus. Well gee...no accountability for best of and worst of determinations, and TOS/CS violations occuring at the WA and hubs with Linden blessings. Explain that one to me.... I am beginning to wonder whether LL introduced the presence of Infonet at the WA and hubs at this time in order to deflect attention away from the decision to elimiate telehubs, a decision that is costing a loss of thousands of dollars to many members. What entitles the member who owns infonet to publish her totally subjective list of the best and worst of SL at all hubs and in the WA. This is so unfair to the members listed in this bullshit list and the fact that Linden is sponsoring this activity is unconscionable. GET RID OF THE BEST OF WORST OF EDITORIAL BULLSHIT ON INFONET AS LONG AS IT IS A LINDEN SANCITONED FEATURE LOCATED AT HUBS AND WA. Who will be on the Seconf Hell Tourbus, worst of SL list next week...whoever makes this member angry? Hey the members who publish and distrubute this BS should be abuse reported...does that include Linden lab employees too? According to the TOS/CS...why YES it does! Isnt it ironic that the information directory LL will allow placed on Linden hub land in Warmouth, Shinda & Bear will state those very locations are on the Second Hell Tourbus list of the worst of SL. Poor old Dione, all she/he wanted was a little business in SL...who will be next? Maybe I will since I am criticizing Infonet, or maybe you will be if you criticize or if the member/owner deosnt like you. This is a lot of power that LL has given one small group of members. Yes, a comprehensive information directory is needed in SL..but a Linden backed business that charges for inclusion and keeps the profits, and includes a subjective best of and worst of list is unacceptable. Oh I totally agree. There should be no freedom of speech or press in SL. We can't have multiple opinions in SL! Everyone should have one opinion on everything. </satire> _____________________
 Ko Industries, unique clothes for the unique woman: Ko Industries: Nexus Prime Gibson (main) store "Be still like a mountain, and flow like a great river" -Lao Tse "Deus Ex Machina" "Dom Ars Est Vita Est" "Stand tall and Shake the heavens" -Xenogears |