Should the "Impeach Bush" Guy's freedom of expression be surpressed/censored?

If I could get online right now, I'd go and seek out the petition that's circulating in world and give you some numbers as far as that goes. Even though I haven't seen them, I'd be willing to bet that they aren't close to any majority when compared to SL's overall userbase.

There have been numerous polls done on these forums, but as these forums only represent a small percentage of SL users, they are quite inaccurate.

I could probably go as far as say looking for statistics on what percentage of the population actually owns land. Then take that, and figure in the fact that not all of them have these signs around them, and not all might even care.

But of course you'll come back and say what about the people who don't own land that find this offensive.

Well to that I just say that I'm secure that this uprising, while very vocal and loud, is not by any means a majority on here.

If you can prove me wrong, go ahead, and I'll stand corrected. Though my opinion will not change about these signs and said person's rights to display them.

Even if it was a majority, who cares? It's up to LL to interpret the TOS/CS that they have set forth for us to abide by. It's totally up to them to do what they have to do about this. It isn't up for a vote. And so far, I think LL's is doing a good job.

They've even expressed dislike for these signs, yet they still recognize this person's right to display his content. And for that, I applaud them even further.

His signs are all over the place..he claims it is his art..thats BS....I wish they would take his signs away for several reasons! First...There is an older woman in the game that I met who lost her son in Iraq...when she does come on teh game..it is to escape her RL to her SL...all his signs do is give her a constant reminder of her rl loss. Its plain mean. I can see him having his sign up one place maybe...but why everywhere? I agree with free expression but within limits atleast on the game. SL is just that...a 2nd life...not RL why do some have to be reminded if they chose to escape?? The second issue is...His stupid signs are not allowing land sales to flow which is causing land prices where the signs are not to raise. I tried speaking to him about these two issues, he didn't care about either point. I wish everyone would ban him until he takes down some of his signs. He is not very reasonable in my opinion. Why does he think his signs are going to make a bit of difference in the way he feels toward Bush. His ending line in the convo we had about the lady who is disturbed by his signs was...Maybe by the next time we speak again Bush ill be in jail. We all have our own personal feeling toward Bush and the war in general but why push them in everyones face.

Though I am a strong proponent for removing such signage - it now seems apparent that it isn't going to happen for a good while.



The terms of service are a powerful, powerful tool to remove *anything* the community considers undesireable, including just one sign. Read it, the words are there.

Yet a culture of near-total freedom has been established, not by the terms of service, but by the very light touch used during enforcement.

Eventually, there will come a point when the signs will go - when it becomes so horrible that it strongly affects the bottom line. But apparently that is not today.


I am ultimately a pragmatist, and thus, I shall be starting a community as soon as I have saved up for a brand new island sim. My ability to please the sim's residents will determine my success - and I get a sense that I'll be successful, already. But there ain't gonna be any 'Impeach Bush' or any other political signs.

Make any dissent of your obviously biased view appear to be sophmoric.
It's not about GWB, it's about land values.

And of course that figure needs to show how many active users there are in game, not the 100,000 accounts of which the vast majority are either alts or cancelled.

I'd like to know how many people logged in each week on those figures as well as how many are online at the moment - or would the truth be damaging to LL?

Lewis

If this was something he actually beleived it its one thing but if you notice the price of the land after he places the signs. I know a few people who have delt with him and it seems he is doing this for pure profit. He claims to be giving a small amount each day to newbies but where is the rest of the money going to but in his pocket. He is placing the signs in residential areas hoping for the land owners to buy him out is what I gather. My suggeston is #1 NO ONE buy his land because it only feeds his "business". #2 If Second Life would zone land we wouldnt have this problem to begin with. I have one set in my back yard right now but really I don't much pay attention to it so he wont get my money

It's NOT an issue of "do you agree with his point of view" or "should his opinion be censored" - everybody is entitled to a point of view. BUT not everyone is entitled to mar the SL landscape in an arbritary way and spoil other user's enjoyment of their land.

I myself - if you have seen my other thread - have a similar problem with the "Hong Kong" bloke, but when I told him I would be reporting his actions on the grounds that he was invading my privacy and interfering with my enjoyment of Second Life he took the tack that I was attacking his opinion. A BIG non sequitur I think.

He said "read the forum for many such times residents have tried to use that to silence their neighbors." to which I replied:
"I don't want to silence you. You can say and do what you want. I just ask you to do it somewhere that is not in my face."

And THAT surely is the issue before us. I really don't care what these people stand for, and they DO have a right to parade their views on SL. BUT they do NOT have the right to rob other users of the quiet enjoyment of their land and houses.

Agreed?

They DO have the right to do whatever they want on their own land that they're paying for. Your right to enjoy your own land stops at the land border.

You have no right to a view unless you purchase the land that protects the view.

What other people build on their own land in no way interferes with your enjoyment of your OWN land. Because you're looking over on their land and don't like what you see - well, you have no right to tell them what they can and can't build on it.

If it doesn't suit you, renting or purchasing land in a sim with zoning regulations may be more to your taste.

I sincerely hope that when you are quite done building your dream house, somebody plants a sewerage station, a nuclear plant, a fish processing factory and a huge black skyscraper with explicit sexual content RIGHT on your patio.

(Oh and I'll be sure to let Mr Iraq and Mr HK know you'd LOVE to see their signs every time you look out the window. They would be delighted to hear it.)

Cheers and thanks for your sympathy.

[/indent]

What some folks may not know is that 'National Brotherhood Week' was an actual event - alas on the first day of festivities someone decided to assassinate Malcom X - which kinda put a damper on the rest of the festivities.

I live in a zoned sim, therefore I avoid these exact problems. When I did live on the mainland, I had 3 clubs, half-finished plywood residences, Tringo parlours, and large GWB signs as neighbors, among other builds. And not once did I have the pure brass balls to tell these people what they could or could not build on their own land, that they're paying for.


If you want to live in an area where there are guidelines as to what can and can't be built, there are options available for you. Telling others what they can have on their own land on the unzoned mainland isn't one of them.

Great attitude

Quiet enjoyment? How is a static sign that is not doing anything robbing you of quiet enjoyment? I don't like the signs any more than anyone else, but the fact is that all of us have the ability in SL to build what we want on the land we purchase. The only thing you can dictate is what is on your own land.

Before you immaturely wish evil upon me for expressing this opinion, I have one of the Hong Kong signs right in the middle of the water in front of my land. Even so, I have no control over what he does - he somehow managed to get a 16m plot. It should also be noted those plots are not marked for sale, they are using their own land as they see fit.

Yes it sucks, but the alternative is way too slippery of a slope for my tastes. As Cory said, there are many alternatives for you to avoid this problem that do not involve infringing on the rights of others.

I think what people are saying - anyway, what I am saying - is that we don't want to have to live on a private island or in a large community owned by someone else in order to have protection from things such as these.

Right now only Boardman and Brown, I believe, have any protection at all from this sort of griefing.

In other words, change it. Saying tough - that's the way it is - doesn't exactly speak to the problem.

coco

Funnily enough when I first started in SL my neighbours were a sewage plant and a nuclear power plant

All things pass.

When they moved - I bought the land.

If you don't want something built in front of you you'll have to buy the land in front of you.

Untrue. Almost every privately owned rental sim has zoning regulations. In many cases, these are cheaper than paying tier to LL directly.

Should there be more zoned options available? Apparently the demand is there, to be sure.

Frankly, there are lots of things I "don't want to have to do". I really don't see the uproar for "protection" from a textured cube. And the freedom to build whatever you want on your own land is one of the original thrills that brought me to SL and made me fall in love with it.

Yes true. That's what I meant by "or a large community owned by someone else." I ought to know; I live in one.

If you love the freedom to put up something like the Impeach Bush signs in everybody's face so much, why aren't you still living on the mainland?

coco

Because I wanted to pay my tier in $L, and I like the fact that I can split my rental payment with Makaio, which I can't do if I pay for rent to LL directly on my credit card, and I wanted to live on an island and they're very hard to come by on the mainland without paying an arm and a leg. Also, the fact that RL circumstances are going to dictate soon that I change bank accounts, making paying LL tier directly off my card impossible. Personally, I miss the free-for-all that the mainland builds are, and our own home is pretty much testament to that. Any other overly-intrusive questions you'd like to pose to me?

Sadly some people have their heads too far up their butts to see that these signs *are* a problem to many of us.

Lewis

Yah I found your bootstrings while I was looking.

I do - and I am - and I've put up with much worse than those blue cubes.

I hardly consider that an overly-intrusive question. To sit on a private Sim and tell others that you love the chaos on the mainland - Impeach Bush signs and all - rather begs that the question be posed.

coco

Asking other people what they do with their money is absolutely intrusive. Just as intrusive as telling other people what they can build on their own property as long as its within the TOS.

I lived on the mainland up until 2 months ago. I left for a private rental sim for the reasons I gave you, regardless of if you had any right to ask them or not. If my living on a private sim invalidates my opinion in your view, which is where I suspect this is going, then so be it.

The irony is that is exactly what you are trying to do - you are trying to force the signs to be removed because you feel it is what is best.

Yes but it cuts both ways. The cannot rob you, and you cannot rob them. The only way to ensure your view is to buy it. Otherwise you are ablsoutely subject to the builds of your neighboors that do not violate the tos. The rigght to queit enjoyment extends right up to your property line, within that context you are free to do what you want.