Should the "Impeach Bush" Guy's freedom of expression be surpressed/censored?

What I'd like to know is why the Bush signs are treated differently from Nazi symbols - after all, both represent political statements and points of view, don't they? Is it purely down to the historical significance of the swastika that one is a problem and the other isnt?

Lewis

Wow you are still trying to work the ridiculous "Impeach Bush signs as hate speech" argument, eh? Nazi iconography is inherently anti-Semitic. It is even outlawed in several countries in Europe. The symbolism is still used today by hate groups, such as the white supremacists as a way of showing solidarity with the actions of Hitler and the Nazi party and trying to intimidate other groups. Symbolism that reflects the murder of millions of people and the ideology of ethnic cleansing again is a far cry from a political statement asking for Bush to be removed from office. To compare the two and claim they are just different political points of view is utter garbage.

I cite Godwins - this thread is done.

So seconded.

I asked on a POLITICAL level, which you entirely ignored.

You know, there's not much difference between the Nazi party and Bush, after all both were behind the invasions of innocent countries and the murder of civilians. Maybe Bush hasn't quite got the number that Hitler managed yet, but give it time I'm sure his plans of world domination are just the same.

I just wish that there was a game out there that wasnt US dominated, so that we could be spared all this 'first amendment' crap, and just deal with it as it is - SPAM.

Lewis

I had to look that one up:

I have to agree with Cristiano here about comparing Impeach Bush to the Swastika. It's just ridiculous, for so many reasons, many of which Cristiano has already pointed out.

An additional one being - Impeach Bush (those signs) is not a symbol! They're statements of opinion, plain and simple.

As an aside, I'd just like to point out to people that long before the Nazi's adopted their icons, symbols like the swastika were pure and good. Many meaning good luck, etc. The SS bolts, for example, are blatant ripoffs of the s-rune/sowilo (see norse history). And back in the day just represented the sun, success, honor etc.

Of course none of that matters now. 3000 years of historical, mythological and cultural symbolism forever tarnished with a fraction of the amount of years in bad deeds.

Thanks Hitler, you da man!

I highly recommend you try RuneScape then. Run by Jagex - a company based in the United Kingdom, and well out of reach of our First Amendment. Buh Bye.

Personally I'd rather have the rule about shredded cabbage and carrot in mayonnaise.

Cole's Law.

Lewis

So... rather than deal with the PROBLEM, you'd rather I just leave - as many others will have already done - over the game pollution of Bush signs.

What a great way to build up the community and the game, and make people feel welcome. Without paying accounts, the game dies, period. Do you really want that to happen?

Lewis

The first amendment crap deals with the action of the government; the Linden Lab "free expression crap" is ummm... not based upon the first amendment.

Nazi groups and the Klu Klux Klan are permitted to freely associate and hold well regulated protest marches much the same as any other group of neanerthal, pinheaded, xenophic, jingoistic, devolutionary people can in the United States. Indeed, the American Civil Liberties Union has acted on behalf of the KKK in a number of places the ensure that their rights to march were properly protected in accordance with the law.

I wonder if LL considers this post to be hate speech against the Nazis. As the stateman Tom Lehrer said "If there's one thing I can't stand, it's intolerance!". Feel free to sing along:

Perhaps you should tell that to all the people who keep bringing up their 'first amendment rights' regarding this issue.... after all, if that has no place in game as it's strictly real world, why should a political protest?

Lewis

Point 1: "Deal with the Problem"

I don't have a problem with the signs. You and others do. And while there sure seems to be many of you with this problem, it's not a majority by any means. And I'd hate to see people censored over the whims of what may just be a handful of people. Would you like a group of anti-clubbers to rally and shut down your place? Clubs sure are annoying - that's my opinion. And many others share that opinion. But we're not trying to take a wrecking ball to them all.

Point 2: "I'd rather you just leave"



Nope. Frankly it doesn't make a difference to me whether you go or stay. You "wished" for a game that wasn't US dominated, so that you could be spared all our First Amendment "crap." I simply provided you with one option for doing that.

I used to play RuneScape. It was the first thing that came to mind as far as a non-US game goes.

If you do go over to RS, good luck on their forums and whatnot. If you ever have a personal/political/whatever problem with RuneScape/Jagex, and want to air that opinion on the forums, you'll see how quickly you get shut down.

I have to respect a system like Second Life and its creators Linden Lab who give us great freedoms to express exactly how we're feeling about this service good or bad.

Point 3: "Make people feel welcome"

"Your world. Your imagination."

If I'd arrived here in the heat of mass anarchy where someone was singled out by a select group of players, and had their freedom to create and express taken away from them, I would have found that censorship much more disturbing to me than ugly political signs plastered all over the place.

Setting a precedent for censoring individuals for unpopular/ugly builds would not encourage me to stay and play. Especially if I'm a noob and can't build too well, and have to fear the wrath of my neighbors and their friends.

Do you:

1. Think I haven't, or
   
2. think they'd listen?

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers them unlimited opportunities for both." -- Eric Hoffer

Technically speaking, sure. The First Amendment is clearly a first life thing (for Americans). But it's painfully obvious that LL (who are based out of and reside in the USA), clearly appreciate their rights as Americans, and do possibly want to translate some of those same freedoms to us, their residents, in "our world."

"Clubs sure are annoying - that's my opinion. And many others share that opinion. But we're not trying to take a wrecking ball to them all"

I guess your point is based on the fact that I happen to own a club. Perhaps you should drop by and check it out before you simply criticise it for existing. It's not huge, it's not laggy, it's not intrusive, and I have great neighbours who don't have a problem with me being where I am.


"I have to respect a system like Second Life and its creators Linden Lab who give us great freedoms to express exactly how we're feeling about this service good or bad."

Yet you don't like me and others having the freedom to say these signs should be taken down. Interesting.


"If I'd arrived here in the heat of mass anarchy where someone was singled out by a select group of players, and had their freedom to create and express taken away from them, I would have found that censorship much more disturbing to me than ugly political signs plastered all over the place."

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that point. I'd be more concerned that the game was being invaded by those with their own agenda and gain, with more power to disrupt and damage other people's gameplay, apparently protected and in a roundabout way encouraged to do so by those who run the game.


"Setting a precedent for censoring individuals for unpopular/ugly builds would not encourage me to stay and play. Especially if I'm a noob and can't build too well, and have to fear the wrath of my neighbors and their friends"

There's a huge difference between one property in one place that's a bit of a mess, and the same thing appearing in hundreds of places all over the grid.

Lewis

I thought part of 'the american dream' was to force your way of life and standards on to others regardless of their own views, because you felt your way was the best?

Lewis

is this how you cope with the sun setting on the british empire?

Yep. I could have easily snipped out club and replaced it with [casino, mall, whatever]. I was just making a point that there are groups of people out there that will object to something or another. And to perhaps put yourself in the shoes of the person being gangbanged by "the majority" to remove their content/creation.

I'm not criticizing your club specifically. I made a general statement about clubs and my feelings towards them, to illustrate a point. That's all. Your club is probably nothing like the clubs I've experienced in SL. And if that's the case, good for you. Like I said, it wasn't a personal snub on your club. It was just an illustration.




Hehe. Quote me where I've said you have no right to say these things. Wait, I'll do it for you.

"I have to respect a system like Second Life and its creators Linden Lab who give us great freedoms to express exactly how we're feeling about this service good or bad." -Gladius

If you look at that again, I'm praising LL for a job well done. In the fact that they allow all opinions to be stated. Whether it's yours or mine. Good or bad. I've never said that the unpopular (or negative) opinion should be silenced.



Yep. To each his own on that one. I can only say what I would have felt like in that situation. I can't speak for others.



Again, I refer to the clubs, no wait...scratch that. Lets talk about malls.

Malls are all over the place. Sure, in most cases they are owned and operated by individuals, but the only thing that changes is that the targeted person here is actually a collective of people (mall owners). And in that case, they're probably in more luck than said individual with multiple builds all over the grid. (strength in numbers for mall owners).

So I could easily state that malls appear in hundreds of places all over the grid, and that they annoy me, and that I think something should be done about them. The only difference here is the victim of my outrage - multiple mall owners instead of one individual.

I really don't see what the number of these things appearing all over the grid has to do with anything. If anything, it's probably a good thing. Because the more signs there are, the more people you can rally against this individual (neighbors of the signs). If these signs only appeared in one sim, or just a few, the "majority" you speak of would be even smaller.

You can only speculate to what this person's motives are. Things look sketchy, sure. But I'm not about to rally against this person based on a hunch or what other people tell me to think. What if the guy is sincere and just wants to spread a message? I'd feel like a fool if I had anything to do with the mob that brought him down, if that was the case.

Again, we can only speculate. And until he declares that he's doing this to grief, or extort, or whatever, I'm not going to personally stand in the way of his SL rights.

(Note: before you put words in my mouth again, realize that the whole mall thing up there was for illustrative purposes only.)

See Jauani's post. /\

See Gladius' post. ^

See Jeska's post. \/ Perhaps.

and still everone is complaining about the eyesore insted of the other things this guy has done to greif

like shoot me

How many times did he shoot you? And did you report each of those? How many other people has he shot? Did they report him?

You can shoot someone once in SL, hell maybe even a few people, and you wont get banned. Worse case is a very brief suspension.

Could you cite me the source of your numbers and data? Did someone do a representative poll? If so, where are the results published, who did it, etc?

Saying "it's not a majority who has problems" -- where does this statement take it's data from?