*scratches her head a little* Why does everyone care all of a sudden?

So, there are these people in secondlife. And they enjoy what they do. However, some people don't feel that the fact people have the right to do what they want to is a good thing.

Why do people even care that people participate in pseudo pedophilia acts(Just to clarify, Ageplay is the act of putting on a different age. You can be young, or old. Pseudo pedophilia is the act of sex with someone playing as a child, but is really a consenting adult) ? They're acting like it's any of their business what residents halfway across the grid do. And, because of their ignorance, people's right to free speech in SL is becoming a little less free.

At any rate, i better ask this before this turns into a rant:
If you're against Pseudo pedophilia (let's keep in mind that they're not actually raping anyone, and that nobody is a child in this case), Why?

Don't tell me:
"It's illegal." -- Yes, pedophilia might be illegal in real life. But dressing up as a child and having sex is -not-. Furthermore, there are plenty of other illegal things in SL that people have little problem against.
"It's Gross!" -- So? nobody is FORCING you to watch it. Stay away from these places if you feel it's so gross.
"It's dangerous!" -- In what way? Wouldn't giving pedophiles SOME sort of a release prevent actual raping of children in RL?


At any rate, let us debate this LOGICALLY and RHETORICALLY.
****Make your claim, and back it up. ****
Stay away from Argumentum ad Hominem, or Argumentum ad baculum. This is a debate to find answer in the ways of the human mind, not a mud slinging contest.

This is an area I was pleased was banned.

I live in the UK where images, real or not, of paedophilia are illegal and could be prosecuted just for capturing it accidentally on my computer. Why shouldn't I be able to use SL without that fear?

Especially having seen the German film which caused the banning, I agree that it very much looks like paedophiles are using SL to meet others similar and act out their fantasies. This wasn't a case of a couple engaging in a little RP, but brothels and groups in SL advertised on paedophile sites for this activity. As a mother, the thought of giving potentially dangerous people a place here to encourage their perversions I find quite sickening.

As for the latest blog, most other sexual activities I don't have the same problem with, what people do in private together is their business.

I think there are some who no matter how many times you tell them that pedophilia and ageplay are not the same thing, simply refuse to get it.

I personally find ageplay rather icky, but also feel it is a slippery slope issue--if adults who do enjoy it are banned for it, what will be banned next?

As Jefferson (I think) put it, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". I enjoy the freedom SL allows to explore socially, creatively, and yes, sexually. I would not want to see these whittled away leaving SL a "safe" but ultimately unfulfilling experience.

I think most of us agree that Pedophilia real or simulated should not be tolerated. Even though I don't agree that pixelated images of anything are dangerous or should be illegal, in the interest of prudence I don't have a problem with that course of action. And I agree that Ageplay is not necessarily Pedophilia.

My thoughts on this remain the same:
Where children are concerned adults need to stop being selfish and concerned only with their own nasty pleasures. That means that there should be no tolerance of even virtual or graphic depictions of child rape as it blunts the impact of social taboos and puts children at risk.

As I said before if Adults wish to get together and wear diapers or whatnot more power to them. If someone wishes to walk around and do normal kid stuff in a child av, good for them.

What should not be allowed is virtual pedophilia, most other rational adult communities online do not allow even rendered images of kiddy porn to be uploaded to their forums.

I do not even visit adult sims here and have met up at least twice a week with kiddy porn avatars in regular places(before you go off on me about this, by basis of groups and what is said in profile these were not innocent child avs, these were child avs for the purpose of sex). Hell if they kept to themselves and did not parade about openly we probably would not even be having this discussion

Interested parties will find it surprisingly informative and rewarding to go to a thread on an entirely different forum, at SLExchange, titled "Disturbing." It was this thread that touched off the entire "sexual ageplay" furor back in February, and as you will see, with good reason. Yes, this whole debate was played out "way back then" (Feb. seems very long ago in SL time) with a great deal of seriousness and passion on all sides. I think some of the revelations in it will surprise anyone who reads it for the first time.

Rather than reinvent the wheel and replay the endless restatements of the same positions on all sides that this issue generates, please go look at that thread first. Yes, I know it is 20 pages long(!), but if you want to embark on the serious discussion the OP is calling for, you will find it well worth your while.

It can be found at:
http://uncensored.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9741

(P.S. I would like to second the OP's suggested ground rules: If you want to get up on a soapbox about this issue, please start another thread. Whatever soapbox speech you have, trust me, it has been done over and over and over again, and reiterating it here yet again will not really accomplish anything.)

This is an example of NOT how to reply. This is a post simply on oppinion. The writer gives no support to his oppinion, except a logical fallacy:

"Well, other people do it. Therefore, we should do it too."

I cannot argue with that one bit. I hope you reported them.

Oh no I posted my opinion. Yes pedophiles are generally despised and only in SL find a welcoming enviroment, which is now closing to them. I am sorry but that is the way it is Mister Sohpia

My thoughts:

Laws and regulations should be put in to prevent only the harm to other people.

Appearances don't hurt people.

Private experiances don't hurt people.

Therefore, we should not have laws and regulations on private events or appearances unless they -directly- harm other people.

I said KEEP AWAY from argumentum ad hominem.

Now, i'll sling a little mud back.

If you can't participate in a manner that requires an IQ above 80, then get out. Tell us WHY you have the oppinion you do.

In most social circles pedophiles are ranked below smokers,nazis,and alqueda. that is a fact

No, It's not a fact. It's an oppinion. It's also an Argumentum ad hominem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Read up.

(if you STILL don't get it, i'll help you:

Pedophiles think we should give them more freedom.

There is something objectionable about pedophiles.

Therefore, we should not give them more freedom.)

Actually in UK, where I came to SL from, it is illegal to portray sex with minors in any way - art, cyber, anything! (and so it should be)

One problem that where there is illegal content in a virtual world, one is possibly committing an offence merely by viewing it, even by accident.

If someone files an AR about under-age content, taking a snapshot as evidence could mean that they might also be committing a serious offence under UK (English and Scotish) laws.

This mirrors the situation Americans might find if they wander into an SL Casino full of Europeans happily chucking their linden dollars away without any fear of legal action!!!!

The question is whether SL should include content that it's illegal for a significant proportion of its residents to visit or use?

What would really put the cat among the pigeons would be if a country with a large number of SL residents made it illegal for its citizens to buy, sell or rent virtual land or trade in a virtual currency!

So if we are against pseudo pedophilia you want us to tell you why, but only in the way you want to hear it?

Then tell me why you are for pseudo pedophilia but don't give answers like: It is really consenting adults, not children; it provides an outlet for pedophiles so they don't rape real children; or what does it matter to you if you can't see it? See how stupid that is now?

BTW, for you to lose the right to free speech in Second Life, you would first have to possess it, which you do not.


blah blah blah...

Heh, I get it. This will be the course in Logic everyone should have taken in their freshman year. Go for it, Sophia, I'm with ya on that one. But be warned: This is going to require a lot of patience!

Oh, and speaking of patience, can we stipulate that indeed active pedophiles are widely despised and get on to the next steps? Ought to make the Logic course morre interesting if we do.

That would probably be true here if a lot of our politicians weren't pedophiles themselves.

Okay. That's very nice. Then you better not practice it, otherwise the police are going to come to your door and throw you in jail.

You're not doing the portraying, so you have nothing to worry about.

Em. hehe, wow. The forearguments i made were to get passed the silly nonsense that are the cliché arugments against ageplay and Pedophilia.

You can still argue for grossness (etc) if you have a reason for it. Mostly behind these arugments are:

Pedophiles think that having sex with childrenesk people is fun.

I think it's gross.

Therefore, pedophiles should have freedoms limited.


"BTW:" I never said we lost the right to free speech. I said that free speech got a little less free.

Sophia's challenge to any and all to defend the position that virtual or psuedopedophila should be banned is very telling...at least so far.

That position is simply not very easy to defend. At least not with any logic or reason that doesn't dip deeply into the well of fallacy.

Simple fact of the matter is that SL's main grid is a community of adults, and griefing aside, whatever they enjoin one another to do, is a transaction between two adults. Children are not inolved.

I seriously doubt anyone here would stoop to defend the actual RL practice of degrading and damaging a child. But the simple, plain, fact of the matter is that doesn't happen in SL.

In places where it is illegal, being involved in or portraying it is not required, but simply having it present on your computer. They confiscate your computer and scan your harddrive. It can be there unbeknownst to you, makes no difference.

As I have already put in my post, you don't have to practice it to be in trouble. Capturing images on your computer is also a problem. In SL you don't know what is round the corner, or what could even move right next to you.

We can asume that, yes. But you CANNOT contruct a valid argument from it. It makes "an argument to the man."

We're not here to sling mud. Just because you find pedophiles to be objectionable doesn't mean their freedoms should be limited. The two ideas are from comepletely different relms.

However for instance, if pedophiles are actually causing problems in SL. IE: Pedophiles are causing technical graphical issues, or you find that your kidneys fail after prolonged viewing of said people, then the argument begins to become valid.

Who is welcoming paedophiles? Just curious.
I don't believe anyone who speaks out against this sort of thing is "welcoming" paedophiles. I know I'm not.
Is there really this perception that people believe that the person playing a young AV is really a child? Seriously?

For me, and this is my own opinion, I can tell the difference between an Avatar and RL, which makes this "Ageplayers are Paedophiles" argument moot.
I also know a few ageplayers (RL and SL) and... well... they're just folks. The ones I've met are in a relationship together and just dig doing something taboo. The ones on SL are fully aware that the other person is not, in fact, a child. They're just roleplaying.

The brothels and kiddy-whores? Yeah. Shut them down. That's kinda nasty.
But let's not lump everyone in with the sickos.