anti-griefer / security groups in SL

"Those who forget the Mistakes of the Passed are Doomed to repeat them."

If you Study History, then you should be MOST Familiar with this quote.
I think when the "Latest Policing group" can Offer the Citizens something New, something that will Guarantee that they will get it right, Something OTHER than just thier Good will, and heartfelt assurances, THEN people will be willing to Give them a Chance. Until then they Really are giving us No more reason to trust them than the Others did, and Look what those Others did with that Trust.

Angel.

Point well taken, Angel. And I do know that quote, I know many quotes like that very well. I would point out the Forget part, though. Because I am not going to forget who had that trust, and lost that trust... To forget in situations like this is just something that can't be done.

So, after saying all of that, and after watching all of the discussions I have seen on here the past few months, I would like to issue a challenge. If ANYONE (including me) can come up with some way to regain the trust of those in SL and the Second Life Forums for helping people, I would like to know. I want to do my part on here, just as in RL.

Well we all know griefers are a part of SL. I see where every one is going with this conversation. The best thing i can suggest is the different groups designed to spread the word about these idiots. I started SL's against griefers so any time people come shooting with there gadgets, bouncing people, and other griefing tactics. We can spread the word to have them banned from all parcels. We all know that LL will never help us, you file reports or call for live help and nothing ever happens. We have to protect ourselves and each other.

Griefers are part of SL... and always will be. Simple as that. This goes for SL and any other online community/game.

I refuse that other residents for me determined who is a griefer and who is not. Too much prejudicement and depending on a peoples own judgement. And I want a "banned on all parcels" system even less.

A lot of new people who are put down as griefers because "experienced" redisents told to do this and that, because anyone would like it and laugh about it.

Educate and teach, that is the way to follow.

Morwen.

As others have stated, the groups have had multiple chances, and all with the same result.

At one point, if a "security" operative made their way onto our parcel, they were politely requested to stand down. If they didn't, then they were politely asked to leave. Only after that did we invoke Freeze-->Eject-->Ban.

Now we do not even bother. If you have a membership in such a group in your profile, you are banned. End of story.

My parcel, my rules.

While I understand your frustrations, Tamii, I must say that you are being pretty harsh to people. To have a pre-set judgement on EVERYONE that has, as you say a membership in these groups, is in a way very ignorant on your part. I mean no disrespect by saying this.

You may say that I am being ignorant by defending those that want to do good, but at least I still hold out some hope. Even though this is a game, there are still some people out there that want to do good.

Steve,

Tami is dead on within her rights... her land, her rules.


Let me tell you my own experience with one of the various SL PD's. Back before the update that made driving the SL roads a living nightmare, every night i used to drive them, taking a new road each night. It was fun and i saw parts of SL that would ordinarily not get visited much.

One night, I pull out of Waterhead parking lot, which was a convenient place to rez a vehicle and it connects to the primary road network. I crossed through several sims and passed a building with a sign that said it was SL police HQ. A griefer (and that is what he was) wearing a police uniform and wearing the SL Police group tag used one of the harpoon gadgets on my vehicle. These use a reverse push to bring you to the shooter. I know the trick to break free of them and did so. I ignored this ahem... police officer... and continued on my journey. He followed me. After following me for 2 sims, i stopped to confront him as to why he was following me. This individual told me that he was writing me a ticket and that i could pay him the fine.

I told him what he could do with his fine (translation: demand for money) and his ticket. And warned him to clear off or i would AR him. He did.

Now i know the arguement is 1 bad individual in the group should not be used to judge the whole group. No, in this case it should... the whole group was getting into trouble like that. Calling oneself a police officer doesn't make you one.


If you want the respect for your group that you wish, prove it. Go out and make a difference... but within TOS.

Here is an example of a police officer: On the news yesterday, I saw a report of a police officer in a small town in North Texas who was getting shot at. It was rush hour and many civilians were around. He didn't take cover; He didn't fire back. He did move and put himself between the criminal and the innocent civilians that the criminal was shooting at, so that he became the target. He did not return fire because of those same civilians. In SL, make the difference. Put yourself between the victims and the griefers without resorting to the same violence they use. Show your group is different from all the others that came before, calling themselves police. Show that your group upholds the TOS instead of flagrantly violating it to serve an agenda. It's a long hard road, but if your group wants the respect, it's going to have to prove that it deserves it.

No one will stop you from your Role Play pleasure of being a police officer, any more than anyone will stop someone from Role Playing a Sith in a Star Wars sim; it's your SL experience. Just remember that those who came before you have tainted many of our opinions, so don't expect complimentary coffee and doughnuts till you show that they are warranted.

Snatuzis states it with eloquence. Respect is earned, not assumed. Show me, and perhaps I will rethink on a case-by-case basis.

Snatuzis Campbell... I just want to say... Thank you. Your words are exactly what I wanted to hear!

I am not role playing. To tell you the truth, I could care less about being a SL police officer. I do want to help, in general, though. I understand what you have said, and I have learned many things in this thread. I get it, most people can't trust... because that trust has been broken in the past. I thank you all for these incites into this issue, and your recommendations have NOT fell on deaf ears.

I just gave up trying to stay in world a few minutes ago after being the victim of a half hour of targeted griefing by a POLICE group dedicated to "protecting SL citizens." I had the audacity to attempt to assist another resident who wanted to file an abuse report for what they had been doing to her before I wandered by. That got me texture spam crashed 5 times, preventing me from assisting the resident and, effectively silencing me. On my last relog, the "Sergeant" and his "PEACE OFFICERS" threatened to file multiple false reports on me. Of course, the majority of the hapless victims in the infohub had no idea what was going on. All they saw was that "after" the griefing had "ended" the "police" had shown up to "help."

Hey, yeah, we definately need more of this.

I have discussed all of this with my group, and the group leaders. I am now one of those leaders, and I will do my best to implement eveything I have heard on here.

Some of these things will include standing down if land owner/security says to, not hassleing anyone who is dealing with griefers (as Taylor Muni has said just happened to him), and the biggest change.... We will be a gunless group. We will not use guns, will only step into the griefer attacks to take the heat off of the other people, and after that AR the griefer... We are here to help people, nothing more.

I know you are all very sceptical, but I ask you to reach down into your hearts and believe me that we will listen to what you have said on here. We will NOT become another griefer force, and if anyone slips through the cracks and turns griefer in our ranks, they will be gone... never to return to the group.

SteveT:

Just for clarification, I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I'm not skeptical of YOU in the least. You seem like a sincere person who truly wants to help others. The point of my post was not to say that YOUR group would grief. The point of my post was to say that the concept is flawed.

Thanks,
Taylor

Thank you for saying that, Tayler. It is nice to read that from someone.

The concept is certainly flawed. There is nothing a "Police Department" in Second Life can do that any other resident cannot, unless the members of said "Police Department" happen to have Linden as a last name.

You stated it's not roleplaying. I would have been more supportive of it if it actually were.

The flaw, as I see it, is that "officer" bit. This is a position that naturally has empowerment above the citizens, for the purposes of enforcing the law, and keeping the peace, with force if necessary.

In Second Life, the "law" are the Terms of Service and the Community Standards. The only people who are in any way empowered to "enforce" that law are members of a growing family of Lindens. The only tools and methods that a group of citizens could hope to employ for these "enforcement" purposes (on the grid at large) are the very ones that are against the "law" to begin with. Unless this group is sanctioned by Linden Lab ("The Government" and provided disciplinary tools, or a subset thereof, by the government, this group is not in a position to be acting in any way as "police officers" in Second Life. This leaves us with the tools we have to use on our own land. There are no legal "enablers" we have to extend "enforcement" abilities to areas on the grid which we do not own, or are not assigned authority to manage by other owners.

I am also in agreement that any kind of "blacklist" solution carries a high potential for unchecked abuse. I have even heard Phil Rosedale refer to this is a possible way in which residents can get together and mitigate some of the problems. As committed as I am to Second Life, and to supporting Linden Lab in any way I can, I CANNOT get behind this. As a previous poster mentioned, the ToS has plenty to say to counter the very idea in the first place. Tort and resulting civil actions can only be effective when there is a system wherein the accused has a clear and effective means to defend himself/herself/furself against the complaint, BEFORE judgement is passed. Second Life currently does not have a legal system in place that would accomodate such a thing, while ensuring fairness, and there is no provision for any kind of authoritative judgement. If a griefer gets caught up in such a blacklist, they will simply move on to a different account and continue the business of disruption. If a legitimate resident, who did nothing wrong, gets unfairly caught up in the same blacklist, they will spend days, weeks or months trying to wiggle out of it. No matter how you look at this, it all points back to one thing: Absolute authority. Residents do not have it. Lindens do.

Sorry for the novel.
zk

On the Contrary, it's both Presumptuous, and High Handed for ANY member of these groups to enter Uninvited onto someone elses land and begin attempting to Moderate the behaviour of others Outside the wishes and desires of the Property owner. Anyone attempting to do so on My property would be ejected probably as fast as the griefer. Bottom Line, No one ASKED them to do it, they just decided for themselves what needed done, and who's behavior was "Not allowed". Sorry, I agree with Tamii.
And for your Edification this is one of the MANY problems that ANY of these would-be Police Forces has to Overcome Before anyone in SL will be willing to "Give them a Chance". Go where you are wanted, Go where your presence has been ASKED for, Keep your Personal, or Group Rules OFF of the Public lands (That's Linden Turf, NOT yours), and stay OUT of places where you have NOT been Invited. Because when you go about throwing your weight around on someone elses property, then, No maybe about it, YOU are the griefer.

Angel.

Ok, first things first.

Zaphod Kotobide,

I was just throwing the blacklist into this thing to see what everyone thought about it. Period. I am just getting everyones ideas...

Angel,

Now I am not sure why you have such a attacking attitude tonight... Seeing as a few posts before I effectively agree with Tamii when she stated that the person before her said everything she was going to say. When I answered to that other persons post, it was then over. You don't have to bring up old issues that have been pretty much resolved...

Did you not read that we are making changes to the ideas we have? I said right out that we would respect peoples privacy by backing down when asked. I have also given other things that we would do, things that were said on this same forum. Any suggestion you have, give it to me, and it will probably be implimented.

We will also be weaponless.... That means that we will just step into the attacks to draw the griefers away, then we will AR. Nothing more...

So it seems to me that you can't really say we aren't trying. Unless you are a stubborn person who can't see that I am working with you and the community 100%. I mean no disrespect, but when you attack me when you can see for yourself that I am trying, it makes me wonder...

We shouldn't have to ask. You have no sanctioned authority to "step in" in the first place. You would only respect people's privacy by not stepping in, unless asked to do so beforehand.


See above, with regard to "stepping in"

You have no enforcement sanction granted you by any authority, so the entiire idea is without merit.

You won't make this work. It's not possible. Residents are opposed to it, and it has resulted in failure every time it's been attempted in the past.

And that is where you are wrong, Zaphod... It can work. It can always work. It just takes someone with enough hope... Something I can see you don't have alot of..

And how does TAKING THE ATTACK UPON OURSELVES, getting shot and orbited and so on make us stepping in? lol I want to help people. If that means making an AR because someone attacked me other than someone else, you should be happy. Do you not see that I am not doing anything other than being a regular citizen. It just so happens I am apart of a group of citizens that want to actually help. Period. Why are you so opposed to this idea? Do YOU make an AR when you get attacked by a griefer? I bet you do... Then just let me do the same thing... Or are you the only one that can AR people?

Well said Zaphod.
This is the Point Stephen that you Seem to be Missing.
I can See you are making an Effort but Mon Chere, you are Still assuming Too much. You Cannot BE a Universal Police Foce because simply put, Not everyone Wants you. That isn't to say that what you are Trying to do is Bad, but you Must recognize the rights of self determination that we ALL have here in SL. Rights Granted, and defended by LL, TOS, and CS. If you come onto My land, and attempt to Enforce Your standards on Me, or My guests then, I say it again, there is Nothing that distinguishes you from the griefers you are trying to "Protect us" from. You are Taking Our rights away, and attempting to enforce Your will on us.
You said Earlier to Tamii, Direct Quote;

When she, or I have had trouble in Past from Members of a group, that whole group Will be Unwelcome. We won't take the time to Interview every member to see if they choose Not to act Poorly like thier namesakes. They identify themselves With a group, so they wear that groups Reputation, and they get what treatment that reputation has Earned. Right now YOU are seeing the reputation these various Policing agencies have garnered for themselves and why. You are even beginning to make some of the same assumptions they did. Who do you believe you are, in telling Tamii she is wrong After the experiences she has had?
If my Last post sounded angry to you, Well, you touched a Chord. In that One phrase you showed me, and others that even if your Intent is Pure, you Still lack a Fundamental Understanding of Your abilities, and the Rights of Others.
Like i said before you REALLY have to SHOW us something New. You MUST demonstrate that you can Do what you Intend Effectively, that you CAN, and WILL police your own Ranks, and you will NOT Trample on the rights of others. A Great Many SL Citizens with negative Past experiences will Not accept anything Less, they are going to be VERY Judgemental, and if you Want thier respect and trust then you are going to have a Long Hard Road to Earn it. and if you Dismiss offhandedly the Need for thier respect and trust then you have already Failed.
If i'm being Harsh, or Holding your Feet to the Fire then TRY to Understand MY intent. If you can do what you propose, then Do it, and do it Well, But I'm Not going to Cut you Slack for attitudes like the one you gave Tamii, and very few others will either. If we do, it will be Far too easy for you to Make the same errors in Judgement your predecessors did, and we will ALL suffer for that.

Angel.

Angel,

You are right. It is going to be a long hard road. I know that. The people in our group know that. I will not argue any more, because quite simply I don't have anything more to say.

Life is hard, I know that. Angel, you want to know why I have a fire to help people? Because I should be dead right now in RL! I should have been dead on Augest 21, 2006... (tragic car accident, but I survived) I have learned that things are hard. But you know what, that is ok. It's a long road, but I am willing a travel that road. And I have the heart to prove it to all of you that it can be done.

You say prove it, and I say... I will.

(I have already told this group that if they screw up even a little, I am gone. Period.) You talk about reputation, I say, good for you. You are getting to the heart of the matter! I thank you for that. I am sorry if it came across as rude or immature to reply to Tamii like that. Is that going to be enough for you? Or do you want something more than an "I'm sorry"?

I know, you don't want an "I'm sorry", you just want proof that this can work. You will get it, I promise you that.

I guess I have a reputation for causing havoc. I don't know if I would call it griefing. There's much, much worse than me out there. And I have mellowed out since my original account got bannz0red. These days my griefing is restricted to bad jokes.

At one time it was my intention to try to get banned from at least one parcel in every sim. (Incidentally, is there any way to know how many parcels I am banned from? Probably not. It's a ton.)

A couple of days ago I was summoned to someone's land to protect her from griefers, because she knew I had anti-griefer weapons. What do you know, they were from one of these self-appointed police forces. And they were indeed shooting her with guns on her own property.

She secured her property, but the grief cops' weapons were way better than mine, so I got orbited.


Here's the kind of thing I get banned from people's parcels for:

I went up to someone's house yesterday to examine their build, and possibly to annoy them. It wasn't private or anything. I hid just outside, while they were making lovey dovey pillow talk in open chat, not in IM.

So the girl asks the guy, "What do you look for an a SL woman?"

I couldn't resist. I shouted, "HUGE PRIMS!"

Later on, in another sim, I got banned for insulting a dragon. Go figure. I have a talent for it.

Stephen and i Had a Chat in private Message. We Understand Each other, and we Both understand this Isn't Hostility between us, But Lively Debate If you want to Put it that way. Stephen, I'm More than willing to accept an "I'm Sorry" If i was Owed one, But i'm Not. I think that's owed to Tamii, and Maybe you and she can Chat and come to a Better Understanding.

IF SL Policing is Possibe, it Really has to be done Right, with consideration for ALL. Each of the groups before has Failed because Each has begun to think of themselves as an Ultimate authority. Judge, Jury, Executioner with No Appeal. They have been Lax in screening Potential members. Thier Training has been Non existant, They have been Dismissive of other peoples rights. They have been Far too fast to Act, and Far too slow to Consider. We all know in RL what we think of a Police Officer who thinks that all he needs is a Badge and a Gun to be God. The same Holds true in SL.

Stephen thinks he can Make an SL Police Force of some kind Work. Ok, Give him benefit of the doubt that his Intentions are Pure. Lets let him Know Where the problems Lie Like we did with his response to Tamii. It gives him something to work on, and Maybe he CAN show us a workable Model. Maybe Not. But I at least am Willing to Listen.

Angel.

My hours only really overlap with europe/uk people and mostly east coast americas ones. I'm probably not going to be there to tell you to get the hell off my property when claiming to be justice this or security whatever.

You could establish yourself as some defacto citizen militia just by acting like good samaritans while wearing some vaguely badge-like tag, and somewhere down the line I'm going to get an IM from someone telling me they don't like all these security people I hired/allowed make them feel uncomfortable visiting my places.

It doesn't matter how sincere you are, if you present yourself as anything other than a caring passer-by, you're making people infer that you're legitimised by the landowner who doesn't know you're even there.

Saying "I'm just StevenT Legend and I wanted to help out" is one thing, saying "I'm part of Justice Team SL and we're Cleaning up this town!" might give people the impression I've hired squadrons of goons to harass customers.

I don't like visiting places with overt security. Not in RL (airport police with the visible threat of lethal violence in the guns they carry) and not in SL (usually a bunch of primmed up goths or guys in blue shirts acting all "have to check you out ma'am". They creep me out with their assumed authority BS and I'd rather go elsewhere. They also lag places to hell with all their gun/shield/scanner fetish toys.

So OK. If you want to put yourself in places you expect to be able to give out advice on getting out of cages or to file ARs all night, that's your Second Life and good luck to you. If you want to hang out with other people who do the same things, again, that's your deal.
But if you're hanging around places wearing some kind of badge, then I don't want to see that anywhere. And I insist on not having that on my property.

Ok, now that I am rested... lol

Re: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenT Legend
I thank you for your harsh words. It is what I need to continue on. You see, if I don't have anyone pushing me, then there is no way I can push my group to do the right thing. I understand where you are coming from. All I can say is... keep it coming.


I'm Glad you take that attitude, Mine is a Lot more open than perhaps i Seem. I Am Willing to give you benefit of the doubt chere, i DO think your heart is in the right place. Look at History, One of our Joint Interests. When the Constitution of the United states was being Drawn up, the people of that country had just removed one Unworthy Governing body. Those who stood up to take it's place Bent over Backwards to Guarantee to those people that what Took the place of the Old would NOT be a carbon Copy under a New Name. The people were distrustful, but the New Government Demonstrated it's Good will by Guaranteeing by Law Fundamental rights that had been Denied then to date.

The people of SL Need to see that same level of Understanding, and Commitment from you and really, they are Not going to trust Easily. everything you hear against groups like yours is a Foundation stone upon which you can Build. Don't Dismiss peoples Objections. For example why didn't you Ask Tamii What a group like yours COULD do to make yourselves Welcome on her Land? Why didn't you ask her what Rights she would reseve for herself, and what ways you Might Assist HER in protecting her Sim instead of Immediately questioning her Judgement. Look at every Criticism as a Starting point to NOT becoming like those in the Past.

You Know, This private message Might be Better Put in the Open Thread. I'll leave that up to you as Long as it's entered in it's entirety. Consider It. See you on the Main Page.

Angel.



This is the converstion I had with Angel last night. I believe Angel basically said it all in that message. I agree with her 100% on every issue she has talked about.

Now, as to this actual main thread...

0h Mercy,

I love that post of yours! If only more people on here had your sence of humor, I wouldn't have to be discussing this issue at all on here.

Angel,

Many good points in that post. I see how I went astray for a little while there with Tamii, and I thank you for pointing that out. I also thank you for just being willing to listen.

Ace,

I see your points, and I agree totally with you. And to tell you the truth, that is all that I am saying... "I'm just StevenT Legend and I wanted to help out".

Sorry, but if it is someone's house or land it is private, unless it is clearly open to the public. You admit you were there to annoy them. You were eavesdropping outside their house. Sorry but in RL this will get a dog sicc'ed on you, if not a load of birdshot in the ass. Bravo for the person who banned you!