under 18 epidemic

Oh noes Lina! That's too easy! We have to complexify the issue 100 fold with Pew reports and much hand wringing about how it's just too hard and the kids are just too darned smart, the little Dickenses!

Same here. I babysit from time to time at relatives and friend's homes, and once in a while here at my place. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep tabs on what their up to - that goes for the TV, the net, or if their playing in the yard, and that has been my point all along.

And you think defiant behavior disappears over time? So what age exactly is that behavior supposed to leave them? Added:

BTW, toddlers comprehend alot more than you think. If they are taught right, they know what no means by 18 months old. Does that stop them from doing it? No.



Ah, but then the direct responsibility is the parent's for giving them the means to get verified and trusting them enough to have those resources.

So you are comparing babysitting to actual parenting? Seriously, that's your argument? So what do you do with those kids when you need to go somewhere? You pass them off to someone else to watch, or if there is a teen, let them stay home alone, right?

And what do you do when the kid you are watching draws on your walls when you aren't looking? Cause you're argument has been once in a while, so it leaves them time to do things wrong. That must mean that they have bad parents!!!! Eek!

Well I give up. You are absolutely right Seola, LL should shut down. Either that, or we should just be bland, nothing sexual or adult in nature. And every child that gets exposed to adult content in SL should sue LL.

End of discussion because according to you and your arguments, nothing can be done. No one can control kids, not that parents or anyone else.

If you read what I say, and not only want you want to read, I've said that parents have responsiblity to their children. However, they cannot be blamed specifically if they do everything in their knowledge to prevent but it still happens, it's the kid's fault for lying.

And don't put words in my mouth that I said LL should shut down or remove sexual content. Don't be absurd in evaluation. I've said that suing CAN happen in the US. With LL claiming they aren't profitable, can you imagine what a lawsuit would do to LL? It's almost surely death. I do love the extremist approach though, quite cute.

That's end of discussion sweetie.

And fact is they do try to keep kids out a porn site cant get sued if a kid knowingly signs up there are warnings. A kid also would ahve to read the tos and community standards and other things. Verified or unverified kids are still going to get into SL if they want to and its up to the parents to find out what the kids are doing.... the kids may still do it but then they are lying and the parents if they know about it should then punish them accordingly mabye not let them use the computer. Most kids dont know about dos commands and other things like that. They are here under false pretenses either way.

Its on the parents to know what is going on with their kids on the internet check programs installed in the computers and ask them about it and check up on them. If they are coming here you can find out and there are many ways to block kids from access things you dont want them to that they cant break without being very tech savvy.

Wow, you can twist things around can't you? I never said you said shut LL down, that was my suggestion. Oh sorry wait, no one else can make any suggestions or have an opinion but you. Sorry.

The command which you are referring to doesn't actually track all start ups within a given time, it's a selected target unless you add them. Also to note, let's go with this is the end all of app checking, how many common people know it? And amen on the cell phones! My 13 year old cousin had one for getting A's. I'm like... what???? I can understand at 16 for driving purposes only, especially if you live out in the country, but... 13??? She's nuts!



I totally agree that it *should* be parents responsibility. But the education on how to do all this is slow getting out because of all the in your face ads for 'computer programs of security and protection'. And actually, depending on the browser, you can hide installed programs from a common check of recently installed. There are even free programs aimed at teens to do this stuff. It's really sad, but it happens.



You can hide it actually. When you install a program, you can do a custom install which allows it to be hidden from the control panel itself. I assume you are talking about the programs list, which without even doing anything special and doing typical install doesn't even recognize AoE III or my Fruity Loops program. I AM going to state that most teens know how to do this. Why? Not only from computer classes offered at schools now, but the wealth of information on... the internet. Getting a 2 minute look at a page designed to tell teens how to do it gives me all the info I need to delete the right files or do what I should to keep it from being hidden within 5 minutes. Do I agree that it's possible? Yes. Am I thrilled that kids can get around it? No. But I am a realist. I am glad you do recognize though, that a good parent can have a child that does something bad.



Absolutely! But that still leaves a window some of the time.



I totally agree with you in some aspects. However, as I've said, the knowledge of it is the thing. I have a firewall, that didn't even bother with blocking SL. But firewalls are so common that bypassing information is out there readily available to kids. I'd love more parents to be more informed on this stuff. I hate the way there are in your face ads for 'protection of anything 2k6' and it's not really as secure as they make it out to be.

What I'd personally like to see is a block from accessing the C prompt on start up. That's the biggest backdoor that bypasses all this. At this time, there is no program or setting on a computer that blocks a C command start up fully.

Talk about twists huh? I'm not even going to bother. I'll just laugh and walk away.

Google is a household name, and it's not new at all. That's the end of discussion for me on Google. Your line of reasoning about it is absurd, and I'll not be a part of it any longer because it's a waste of my time.

O rly? Where is the quote then? I said no such thing, so you're damned right I am not going to answer it, because you're making crap up as you go. I opined that if a parent checks in occasionaly they will be more aware of what the child is up to. If you dispute that, then I can't help you. SL sessions, like those of most MMOE/Gs are generally lengthy. Sure the kid can hear you coming and shut it down, but eventually you're going to see it. It is then that you ask, "Hey, what's that game? Tell me about it son." If you give enough of a damn, that is.

Furthermore, as I have contended all along, one should familiarise themselves with the tool their kid is using. At least to the point of being able to look in the start menu, and :gasp!:, maybe even C:/Program Files. Yes, now give me a giant run on paragraph about how to hide stuff. I will ask again - what is it you're trying to prove with all your computer 007 talk? That we should just give up? That they're just too smart? What is your end game?

Again, I said no such thing. Where is the quote to support this? I do believe that the parent is partially to blame, yes, and that's hardly placing all the blame on the parent, even though you'd desperately like to claim that I am. Sorry, that's my opinion, and you're just going to have to live with it.

Not one of those quotes you posted of me has me saying that because there was some sort of a problem that the parents should be condemned as "bad" parents and that "everything is their fault". I was linking bad behaviour to parenting, and there is certainly a connection. If you disagree, then we're just gonna have to disagree. Maybe you can attack some more and tell me I am bad parent material, out of touch, or in the twilight zone, and then accuse me of attacking you.

Do you disagree that defiance is a behavioral problem? Do you disagree that the parent plays some role in that? Do you think defiant kids and kids who aren't defiant just magically become that way on their own? You bypassed locks, you smoked when you were told not to, and I see you still making excuses for that into adulthood, whether they be for you, your parents, or both.

The reams of stuff you've posted here amount to no more than a carefully crafted and rehearsed set of excuses. Just look at the unnecessarily overly technical response you gave to Lina - it's ridiculous.

And cover my tracks? How pray tell? Let me step you through the series of events:

I "go to bed".

I get up 15 minutes later, power up my PC and get on my favorite chatroom.

My dad opens my bedroom door an hour later, and sees me (you know, with those organs called eyes that most of us have in the front of our heads), and tells me to turn it off, and that tomorrow the computer will be leaving my bedroom, will be put in the den, and the den will be locked after bedtime. Furthermore, i lose computer priveleges unless it was for schoolwork, for a month. Case closed, problem solved. Unless... I was a lockpicker! Which gets into respect. I may have disrespected his wishes to not be on my PC after bedtime, but I respected him enough to not break locks, especially after suffering the humilty of being caught and punished for what I had already done.

The fact I was caught has nothing to do with me not being "smart enough", it has to do with me defying his wishes in the only possible manner I could - sitting at my PC in the dark, and getting caught. I know, I know, you may think you sound smart if you can mire it all down in computer 007 mumbo jumbo, but it's not that difficult a concept, except for you apparently.

And for the record, I build my own systems, I know networking, I know security, I know very well how to cover my tracks if I want to, I know a whole lot about computers, likely as much or a bit more than you do, so please cut with all the patronising explanations of how computers work. You're not talking to your family members who don't know what Google is here.

Wow! That one went right over your head, didn't it?

Figure it out. I am alluding to the fact that if a babysitter can manage to keep tabs on what kids are up to, a parent certainly can. So the answer is a resounding NO - I am not drawing a direct comparison between babysitters and parents, get a grip.

Oh I agree that the kid would be there under false pretenses and I would love to believe that it would be theirs and the kids deal to deal with. However, recent lawsuits dispute that. It's really ridiculous actually. There are hundreds of cases pending and thousands more settled on kids accessing porn and adult content on their own account, that the parents have sued and WON.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=kid+parents+sue

That's not specific to porn, but it's certainly sad to see that many hits for ridiculous lawsuits. In fact, one case alleged that a teen posted a 'mature' pic, claimed they were 18 and I believe it was the ACLU, who persued a case against all those who saw the pic, claiming child pornography viewing. Some other cases include posting on a family website a pic of a child and their first bath being 'child porn distribution'. There was a Lifetime movie about a woman who took some pics of her small kids in their underwear playing around, and the pics were turned over by the developers. Anyways, that's just to show that there are some stupid lawsuits out there, that make it and win.

As I said, before I think you saw it... a small short search turns up hunderds of free pages and software to deny the ability to see what's going on on a computer. So even if we were to presume they have no idea on how to do it, they can easily get the information from the net.

What twist, I took responsibility for my own statement.

This is what i mean though. The parents that are sueing are BAD PARENTS. They are not disciplining their children but are rather placing the blame elsewhere that is what im getting at. Its not the companies fault that the kids access the site or the game its the kids fault and the parents fault for not keeping some type of tabs on the kid. The majority of kids dont know how to cover up their tracks and wouldnt bother looking how to get away with it. People disobeying are usually not smart enough to not get caught.

So which is it? Is your argument one of principle or one of "omg there are ridiculous lawsuits and SL could be closed down as a result"? With this post it's not clear to me anymore.

None of yur lawsuit examples above deal with a password protected site which disclaims itself to be for persons over 18 and in fact says "Under 18? Here's the link to Teen SL".

You do love to post a bunch of extraneous info don't you?

Oh, and your reasoning that since you know what it is, means others have to isn't absurd? At least I make logical connections. You keep saying you aren't gonna bother, but then another long post comes without giving any answers to my questions, just attacking me and refuting common sense.



Making it up? Kettle, hello, this is pot, you're black. You have NOT ONCE provided a SOLID basis for your opinion. Not a single iota except census data which doesn't track usage. And now, you've changed your argument again, to suit my solidly formed opinion. So NOW you are saying that a kid COULD do something wrong, and that a parent COULD eventually find out... but how long is eventually by your standards pre tell? A week, a month, a year?



Wow, more demanding questions from one who refuses to answer mine. Do you like it up there on your throne? Why not answer the questions instead of attacking my INFORMED opinion? In fact, I tell you what. I'll be happy to come to your house, install a program in under 5 minutes and make it undetectable. Are you that ill informed about computers to think ALL programs HAVE to be in C:/ Program Files? Are you that ill informed that a 2 second delete from Start menu can't happen? I cannot believe you can sit there and attack me, with my valid data, proof and common sense thinking with irrational thought and avoidance of what I ask you.



I'd quote you, but you obviously don't even believe your own eyes with the quotes I gave you. Your opinion is not a well thought out, informed opinion and excuse me for trying to enlighten you on the nuances of the net and computers. I showed several quotes already of where you've pointed directly that parents are 100% to blame, so spare me this "I didn't say that" cause you did.



I guess you type in another language then, because you've directly stated it. How do YOU interpret "out of control kids have one reason and that's crappy parenting?" Don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot eh? Tough situation... continue to attack me, or point out nothing which I said "bad parent material (hey didn't you accuse me of putting words in your mouth), or that you ARE obviously out of touch. That isn't an attack. It's a fact. I provided information to back up that fact. And you obviously posted it yourself. Especially here about the start menu or program files. You obviously forgot that I already mentioned hiding them in hidden files which common searches don't look for.



Yes I disagree. You are saying that defiance is a direct result of bad parenting and that's simply not the case. I tell you what... answer me this. What caused me to defy my parents when I was taught not to? Please. I'd love to hear another of your baseless opinions. Tell me, what a child is raised completely and ethically properly why they resort to smoking? What garners that defiance? You've done nothing but blame parents the whole time. So tell me, what should a parent do to curb defiance and be totally 100% sure their kid is NEVER doing anything wrong.



I think you mean carefully RESEARCHED. I provided examples of how I got my opinion, why haven't you? Why can you sit there and question me continously, avoid the information I've given you, and not respond to questions and expect me to sit here and give you everything you want?

And cover my tracks? How pray tell? Let me step you through the series of events:



Actually, it has everything to do with being smart enough at the time. Most kids would think to wait til they hear snoring, or wait til their parents went to work (I did the latter, I wasn't about to get caught in the middle of the night with them home, I waited til I knew they were gone and far away). I've already told you locking things in a den doesn't provide the security you think it does. Lockpicking has nothing to do with still being able to get into it. Unless you discount windows, connecting doors, and ceilings. So you drew a line of respect, to do something he told you not to, then didn't do something he told you not to. That's just... I can't even begin to describe the hypocrisy in that.

I seriously doubt, due to your lack of obvious information, or your 'simple workarounds to finding out what's going on' that you are in networking. And aside from that, knowledge of covering your tracks now has nothing to do with doing them when you were a kid.

Hey, I tell you what. I'm in networking too! I work for Bill Gates! Does that make me a genius? Does that mean I know everything?

Again, you make an assumption that since you know what Google is, that EVERYONE MUST!!!! Please, provide me even a logical line of thinking that proves that.

You can't blanket that all parents that are suing are bad parents. But you can blanket them as stupid. Some of the actions occured at school. Which to me would at least make me think they'd sue the school first! But I totally agree that it's not the companie's fault. It's like that ridiculous gramma case, where a Gramma bought GTA for their grandkid and the grandkid went and did something stupid and the parents and gramma brought a lawsuit against the makers, even though the game was marked mature. Where were the parents to find out what's in this game? What the heck was Gramma thinking?

But then again, while you say it's the parents fault, not all cases occur in the home, and even if they do, what's the recourse when the parent thinks they did everything right and the kid still does something stupid? Surely punish the kid! But nooooo, they've gotta toss a lawsuit against the company first.

Ummm most people do know what google is and they dont even need to the default explorer most people use defaults directly to a page with a search engine. They could easily find it out and most people know what google is unless they are living under a rock. Most people if they watch tv or get the newspaper or have a computer know what google is or yahoo for that matter. A good deal of websites have a google search bar on them to.

*sigh* And again, yet another baseless opinion post, where you fail to see the continous information of how it could play out.

If you are gonna pick an argument, at least realize what I'm addressing to YOU, and how it's reading, versus continuity of posting to you and completely different posting on another subject brought up to a different poster.

I'm not surprised it's not clear to you. I separate the conversations I'm having with others in postings. What I said to the poster that was NOT you was a different direction that would I have said TO YOU.

Lemme connect it all for you, k? Even though you STILL keep questioning the same thing over and over and changing around your opinion. I'm glad you have, it means at least some of what I'm saying is making sense to you. Here is the long and short of it all.

SL opens registration to everyone which leads to an increase of teens. These teens, even ones with perfect parents, who are doing everything one would normally expect for protection, are finding ways to access SL. This not only leaves the door open to ruin the gaming experience for many adults, causing them to flee, but it leaves the door open to frivolous lawsuits from sue happy America for not having more safeguards in place. (Remember the mom who sued MySpace for 30 million? They claimed asking age and geography info wasn't enough to protect teenagers. Even ones who lied.) This in turn, if a nasty lawsuit is filed, could lead to investors backing out even if they lost. That type of bad press can be completely damaging. Which makes us ALL lose SL. While it sounds like I'm saying an extreme, it's a quite possible scenario based on the current way things are going.

I've talked to many adults in SL, and many business owners who are packing up shop and leaving SL altogether. Not only because of pricing, but because they are sick of being griefed and having to police against teenagers. I mean, this is worrisome for ALL business owners. Do a search on the threads of 'should I be worried about teens in my mature area' and you'll see just how common this concern is.

By looking what the kid was playing to see what was in the game. Checking it out on the web asking other parents about the game or going to a game store and asking what it is. As well as checking the games case. But the thing is there are always resources for the parents to look into something. My parents knew all the games i had because we kept the gaming things in an area everyone used. There are preventative measures that the parents could of taken but didnt.

Hence bad parenting. If the parent isnt lapsing in their job as a parent then they would of known about the game. If they knew the grandmother bought it then they could of looked into it. In this type of case the kid usually has a predispositioned mental condition and should of been staying away from that type of game which again is a parenting issue to find out how your kids operate check in with schools etc. The grandmother should of also researched the game before buying it in this case which would be the common sense thing to do.

They are bad parents because they dont want to actually put the blame on the kids because it makes them look bad so they use the company as a scape goat for it. The sad thing is quite often they win these cases. Its also proof of how stupid the united states court systems are.

Oh I'm not disagreeing that the mass doesn't know about Google itself. But I've NEVER seen Google on my TV. I have DirecTV is that makes a difference, do they run ads or something on local stations? I don't deny that homepages link to SOME sort of search engine either, but unless you default Google, it isn't Google. And not as many people get the paper as you may think. And even so, I've never ever once seen a local paper run (out of Missouri, Colorado, Florida and Georgia) an article on Google outside of the Stock pages, and frankly, how many people read that outside of stock brokers? My argument has merely been that if you don't know about it, how are you going to find out about it? Search a search engine for search engines? Please tell me where I can find the info that directly links Google to be a site visited in most homes.

Also, as for the google search bar, can you name a few? I'm not saying it isn't there, I'd just like to see it for myself. What types of pages have them, and where they are located, etc. None of the daily pages I visit (about 15 or so) have it, so if I can broaden my horizons, awesome!

Then I ask this again, what about the parents that can't look over their kids shoulder and think they are doing everything in their power to keep them from accessing things they shouldn't, yet they still are. If you don't know what the name of the game is, you can't really ask a whole lot about it, can you? As for Second Life, what would be kept around that area that points to it being used?



I ask again, what's a parent to do when they are none the wiser of even playing the game? And I agree, that if the grandmother failed in judgement and the parents didn't research it, that it's certainly not the company's fault.



I think some actually do blame the kids, but want money. I mean, who doesn't want free money these days? It's so easy in our courts to get free money now. It's absolutely proof that the court systems are going stupid. I wonder if California ever passed that law against frivolous lawsuits? Said something about you can't sue a company/corporation if they are not DIRECTLY linked to the actionreaction.

Myspace is a good istance its not google but it has a search bar right at the top. The default for Internet Explorer which is there by default on most people's computers and if they have firefox guess what? It defaults to Google. A good deal of websites out there do have google if you look or at least some sort of search engine. There are many out there

The thing is there are other ways not involving the internet to find out about things. For instance asking other people you know going to a place that deal in that sort of thing and the internet or asking someone tech savy to look it up for you. There are alot of avenues out there that you could take is the thing. The parent could also guess SecondLife.com i mean its pretty easy to guess.

As i said though there is more then 1 avenue and more then 1 search engine out there.

Well an easy answer here is fine out what your kids are up to. Keep the games and stuff in a public. Most parents can you say it with me buy the game systems in their home and if they keep it in view where they can see what the kid is doing or palying they will know if it is objectional. Dont need to constantly look over the kids shoulder if you see the game once and object take the game from them end of story. You dont need to constantly watch them. Simply keep the game out of their reach check their rooms etc. Check the memory cards for games on their video game systems and see what they are playing and research it.

The thing you miss here is that a parent always can find out what their kid is playing in their home. There is a lapse of parenting these days and parents continually try to scapegoat the comapnies and push the blame onto them rather then blaming the kid and their lack of parenting. If i had GTA and was playing it with the volume on at all my parents would of questioned after hearing gunfire and people screaming etc. There is a lack of parenting these days parents let the schools , gov and tv and corporations raise the kids these days.

Hey sit the kid in front of a tv and give em a game system and leave em to it. Thats not parenting. You see? Parents no longer are finding out where their kids are going they rather just give them a cell phone and hell half of them rack up charges but guess what the cell isnt taken away from them. If parents are actually parenting then they are watching what their kids do and find out about things they are into. Many parents arnt even home enough to parent their kids these days. So Ok it may not be due to bad parenting but many people have a lack of parenting all together. Many parents think the schools teach right and wrong etc and its simply not true.

I see this happening more and more sadly and people have this tendency to not want to take the blame themselves this has been going on for a long time. People blamed bevis and butthead for fires started or music for killings its been going on for a long time and its not just games it goes towards all forms of media that can have a bad side to them.