under 18 epidemic

You'd be surprised at the amount of parents who never heard of Google. But currently the only open software to the public, is hardly known that refuses installation of programs and even that requires a password, which can be bypassed.

You can't just make it impossible and poof. What you think may be the answer to impossible is just a wall to dig under for teens.

And I think you are the heir to a gene-line of unsurpassed sneakiness. As other people have said in the thread, an important part of the issue is the distinction between people who are exposed by accident, and those who commit fraud, walk through fire, whatever, to get to something.

THOSE people have been BAD. You can't ask everyone else to curtail their rights to freedom of expression, because some brat might sneak in, defeating their reasonable efforts to keep juveniles out.

Bullets have killed more than nuclear and atomic weapons. Knives cause wounds which are equally gruesome. To people who play with these things in SL, its just a matter of a means to an end. Furthermore, nukes in RL promote peace via fear of mutual destruction.



I don't see people humping and cumming all over their partners faces on the news. But I do see people getting shot in the head and charred bodies littering the roads. Maybe your local channel does.



You are shielded by a government who treats you like kids and filters what is objectionable for your consumption. That makes you think it bizarre.

Is LL doing everything in its power to keep kids off the adult mature grid, or are we asking too much, where does the responsibility end or begin?

Ive seen kids get in with their parents credit cards, one young man had to sell his land FAST one day, as his mothers credit card had come in with over $300 worth of land purchases on it. I'm sure he and she both learned a valuable lesson that day.

I have a friend in game, 19 yr old male, who's younger brother hounded his mom to let him in too, he IMed me in game to rent a condo, and told me he was 12, i asked him to call his mother over to chat with me, and i told her just how it is in mature SL, she took him off immediately and thanked me for letting her know. She didn't even know a teen grid existed.

So yes kids are going to sneak in no matter what...there is not a lot anyone can do except report, and hope and pray LL has a way to prevent further alts from coming in on this same kid.

We can all do our part, to protect children in whatever way we can, yes it does take a village to raise a child, but ultimately it goes back to the parent and the management of SL to keep minors off the adult grid.

Well, I don't know myself enough about computers, but luckily we have a friend who has (she works as an systemadministrator for a big Dutch company).
Even when an update or something has to be installed my youngster will be prompted that she needs administrator-rights to do so. Don't know how it all has been done, but it works (proven the fact the questions of my youngster).

Maybe you are a computer-wizz who is deeply into the cracking of computer-systems and alike, but most younger people aren't. They know a lot about computers, but not enough to bypass administrator passwords, policies and alike.

To that, letting your child fool around on the Internet while you don't even know what Google is, is in my eyes just plain wrong. There is something like involvement and interest in what your child is doing and getting at least basic knowledge to talk with them about it. Specially concerning the Internet because there warnings about the Internet all over.

Morwen.

Most people dont even know there is a way to allow/deny access on a computer , simple things like a logon password are beyond the vast majority of users. By your own admission you have to get the help of a sys admin friend!

True. But only to make it work. I mean, at the company I work I cannot install anything on my computer/lap top there... then it should be possible at home too. And reading some parent-forums (where Internet is an always returning subject, it was more then mentioned too). Sure you cannot know everything, but it sure doesn't hurt to look good around you

Morwen.

Trust me, my mom (like most) wouldnt even know where to start. even a forum is beyond her.

All the "hurdles" you've constructed here are easily overcome by simply looking at what the kid is doing. Check to see what they are doing on the computer. You, know, by looking over their shoulder once in a while. All the non-sequiturs in the world (excuses about lack of tech savvy) do not change the fact that the problem is parents who don't use their eyes and the most basic of parenting skills.

Look.

Question.

Research.

Respond accordingly.

If parents are unwilling to do these things, then the problem lies with THEM.

If parents are going to let a child have unfettered access to the net, and don't know the first thing about computers and the internet themselves, then they are idiots. I dunno about you, but my parent(s) checked every book I read, every game I played, and so forth, and it didn't take a technical degree, it took the where-with-all to get off the couch and DO IT. Your reasoning is like saying that if a kid starts hanging out in a red light district in RL, his parents aren't responsible because they were ignorant as to the nature of that section of town.

This is so true!!!!!

Morwen.

Thank you! This is what I've been saying. Go see what your child is doing on the computer. Keep the computer in a central area, not the bedroom. Walk by every once in a while and say, "what are you doing?" If you see something online and you don't know what it is, ask. If your kid is switching out a screen when you walk up, ask! Find out their screen names, do a google search for them. Don't know how? Well that's no excuse. Find out if you want to be a decent parent. If your kid joined a group in the real world called BDSM and you didn't know what it was, would you just say, oh I don't know anything about that sort of stuff, so I'll just leave little Timmy to it?

Do you realize how easy it is to bypass system admin passwords? Sure, you can create separate accounts and make it so the child's account has no access right. However, either a kid can guess a password, or you can start it up in C prompt and go from there directly to the admin's account, bypassing the need for a password. No, I'm not some genius hacker. This is common knowledge to the majority of the people I know my age.

I have ZERO computer major knowledge. But I do know that there are simple workarounds to all the programs out there and the computer's embedded protections.

You have self admittedly needed help from a techie friend. Who are you to say what limits a parent should know of sites should be their limits on having a computer? Just because you know what Google is or isn't, doesn't make you a good or bad parent, or an authority on computers. Google hasn't been around for a tremendously long period of time, compared to say Yahoo. Google never even really took off til about 3-4 years ago.

If someone doesn't tell you about them, what are you supposed to do? Search the internet over and over til they find a site that YOU deem acceptable enough in the list of priority knowledge sites?

Companies are different than home desktop PC's. Most of the time, they've hired other companies to filter, or at least daily updatable software, with minor 3rd party intrusion unless an investigation need be launched. My roommate does it for cadets at the Air Force Academy. He can, with a button, ban anything he wants from going over the internet that all cadets are required to use.

My mother works for an insurance company and it works the same way. Sites are banned for specific reasons, then if a random visit to a site not on the list comes up, they can investigate it, trace it and block it.

You would think it *should* be possible, but unless you want to pay oodles of money to outsource what is deemed acceptable, then it's not as easy as you think just to turn it off. Protection is NOT an on-off switch.

My other mother has no clue about computers. She knows how to pay bills, set up accounts (she did for my little brother, 13 years old, who promptly surpassed admin rights), email, and play solitaire, and she's only 44.

I don't know how many times I can ask this, but HOW MANY FAMILIES HAVE A LIVE IN NANNY OR BABYSITTER FOR TEENS 13-17 YEARS OLD? How many of you have left a 13-17 year old alone after school or on a Saturday while you worked? It's not as simple as just looking at what a kid is doing. Majority of US families (and I'm sure other parts of the world) DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY of sitting on their asses right behind their kids 24/7.

By this logic, if they get caught doing something after school, like smoking in a corner, it's the parents fault for not being right next to their kid during all their free time. If your kid has sex during lunch or a school dance, hey... blame the parents for NOT being over their shoulder.

How many of you know what notes they are passing in school. By your logic, hey... all you gotta do is keep looking over their shoulder right?

I don't know how to say this any plainer.

Anyone who thinks that a kid should have no time to theirselves, or think kids should be monitored 24/7 is naive to the reality of most modern families. It just doesn't happen that way. Families cannot afford to not work, or hire nannies to watch over teens who otherwise are easily capable of taking care of themselves.

You blame the parent for not doing enough, but the truth is, most parents believe they ARE doing enough by only setting up a DTPC to admin rights only. They haven't been educated otherwise. How many of you out there responding over 35 had computer classes in school? How many under 30? Majority of parents of teens right now are 35+. A large majority of them, never had a single computer class.

Lots of programs out there these days are packaged as 'the end all, be all of security to protect your children'. For a parent who has only common knowledge of the internet, that seems like enough to them and don't even know the fact that the information is freely passed through teens these days of how to get past those safeguards.

Saying that if a kid can get through security systems means that a parent is a bad parent is a rather wrong, ill informed blanket statement, and frankly, an insult to teens out there with an ounce of intelligence, or parents out there, naive that every security system is *easily* bypassable.

P.S. And how many of you are parents of a teen, who have had them help *you* out on the comp?

How does the school analogy, or even the "walking by a porn shop" analogy, stand up in your head?

SL is an 18+ place. They have strictures in place to stop people that are under 18 from entering. Whether or not they are sufficient is moot in this case.

How is this ANYTHING like a school or a public place? In ANY way shape or form? There's no logic to these analogies whatsoever. None.

If you want to make an analogy, I think a nightclub would be more apt. Hell, ANYWHERE with an age restriction would be more apt.

To try to link a teacher showing porn to students and SecondLife is spin of the worst kind.

Simply put, everyone should stop bitching.

If someone is 17, i'm assuming that they would already have a fairly good idea of what they are seeing. If someone is under that age, there is definitely a problem.
Second Life is, primarily, centered around activites that people can not engage in IRL (and i'm NOT just talking about sex, because that seems to be the ONLY aspect of what people are thinking of). If a parent is willing to turn a blind eye to their child stabbing someone through the gut ISL, then shame on them. The TOS clearly state that people under 18 are not allowed on the main grid. It is not within LL's responsibility to censor what their game does (let us not forget: created BY residents FOR residents. hence, LL doesn't realy have any power there anyways). As someone said: passive pronography and violence are one thing, but letting your child directly perform various acts that they shouldn't without you telling them not to is shameful.
parents, don't get mad at LL for creating one of the greatest internet and social phenomenons. get mad at yourselves for being bad parents in this regard.

We aren't say live in nanny, but don't you think if the parents checked in every once in a while they would see if there was something they would see things like Second Life. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

If a kid is smoking and they've been told not to (which they damn well should have been), then it is a behavioural problem. Behavioural problems start at home. You know, like in your case, where you claim to have bypassed padlocks that your dad installed. That is a parenting problem. I didn't bypass padlocks, and my dad raised myself and 3 brothers from the time I was 12 years old on. I nearly choked when I read you trying to give parents a free pass if their kid is having sex at a school dance.... are you serious? Come on! Are you really serious? If so, all I can do it sit here and shake my head, and then come to the realisation that folks like you are the reason we live in the Age of Blame and Denial of Responsibilty. The phrase "out of control children" comes to mind, and in my world, there's one cause for that - crappy parenting.

You just want to sit there and make excuse after excuse. No parent needs to be there 24/7/365 to figure out what their kids are up to if they give a damn about their children. But that doesn't matter does it, because you will keep coming with the same battery of excuses and reasons to be defeated before even trying. Nobody has said that the parents need to sit behind a child 24/7 except for you, and that's what is callled a strawman argument.

I don't need to have kids of my own, I WAS that kid a few short years ago. I have an intimate grasp on the nature of the situation.

Again, it doesn't take a degree to check over the kid's shoulder once in a while - not anymore than it is necessary for a parent to drive by the park to make sure that their kid is actually at the park playing kickball like they said they were.

I dunno what kind of a world you live in where bad behavior of a child is excused simply because the parent was not physically present.

Also, you keep chastening everyone here by bludgeoning them with "HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE A KID!!!!" yet I haven't heard you say that you yourself have a teenaged child... Do YOU? It doesn't matter though, because we have all been a teen at some point, and we all therefore have the right to comment here. Just because I am not a parent doesn't mean my opinion on the matter is uninformed or invalid.

You keep citing "facts", like the number of parents who know about Google - well you know what? My grandfather, who was 89 and passed away a couple weeks ago, knew about Google, and I honestly do not know ONE adult that does not know about Google. You can't read a paper, a magazine, or watch TV news without hearing about it. People talk about it at lunch. People talk about it all the time. You're really trying to play off adults as being total ignoramus's here and you lose with me, I don't buy it. And again, one doesn't need to be a computer science major to LOOK at what the child is doing - it isnt any more difficult than looking out your window to make sure little Johnny or Jane are behaving while they play in the yard. My God, a home activity and you are finding every possible excuse to just give up. Is that what you want? For everyone to just give up? All adults should be subjected to rules for minors because some lazy parents cant be bothered to BE PARENTS?

It's this simple - don't have the time to be a parent, don't be one. My dad is not internet savvy, he worked long hours to support a motherless family of five, yet somehow he found out I was on chat rooms after my bedtime, and took corrective action.

I don't buy your excuses and "facts" Post some links please, to support these "facts" and figures you keep hammering us with, or I will simply choose to toss your "facts" into the recycle bin. (Right click on the trashcan icon and choose "empty recycle bin", for those 35+ out there saying "Derrr wot's a kahmpooter, derrrrr?"

Thank you Again Sunspot,

You said what I wanted to say.

Exactly, all this talk of parental responsibility is beside the point and simply distracting from the real issue.

If it's not parental responsibility, what is the real issue? That SL needs to be on lock down until every person proves they are over 18? Did you read some of the responses here? It is ridiculous that some people think that parents have no say so in their kids' lives. There was a thing on the news in Australia about a kid supposedly addicted to World of Warcraft. The mother was shown in tears because the kid plays 16 hours a day, doesn't go to school and doesn't have a job. I couldn't figure out why she didn't go in there and shut the computer off. Tell him he can play once he goes back to school and only after school and on the weekends. If she can do that, then kick him out. What bizarreness is it that parents have no control over kdis?

Huh? I think you missed the point. I wasn't talking about "the real issue". I was pretty specifically talking about one person's post.

As for "the real issue", I don't see how it is LL's responsibility to do more than they already are, any more than it is my responsibility to censor myself because some kids broke the rules and snuck in.

How 'bout this for an idea?

Instead of posts like "There are kids here, what the hell are you gonna do about it?", which are, in all honesty, empty complaining, how about suggesting solutions for what you see as a problem?

You've made no suggestions whatsoever regarding what LL should do to curb this alleged flood of children, just a demand to know what they're going to do about it.
Here's the thing: You have no right to demand this. Your observations and opinions are just that. Yours. You have no definitive numbers on this, no real proof that there is a huge deluge of underage people getting into SL. If I were to rely on only my own experience in SL, I would have to say that LL is doing a fantastic job keeping kids out, as I rarely, if ever come across them. But I don't. I don't offer up my opinion as proof of a problem and then demand that something be done about it.

If there IS a problem with kids getting in where you hang out, do the right thing. Report them and they will be kicked out. If they come back, report them again. If you really have enough of a problem to vocally demand that the company do something about it, over and above the strictures they already have in place, then continually reporting someone every time they show up shouldn't be a hassle for you.


As for parental responsibility, I agree. It IS on the parents to monitor their kids. Not 24/7, but often. Raise them right and not only will they be less likely to get into trouble, but even if they do, they should get through relatively unscathed.

It's not my job to raise them. It's not my job to censor myself in an area that is considered "Adult". That's the parent's job. If they don't do it, I cannot be held responsible.

Because these people are portraying that the parents should be involved and watching at all times in RL. That's why those analogies stand. They are making it like if a child does something bad, regardless, it's the parents fault for not standing over their shoulder.

K, so is it once in a while or CONSTANTLY? If it's once in a while, then there are times that you won't have an eye on the teen which means that leaves a time when they could access SL without a parent even being HOME. Why is that so hard for YOU to understand?

Taking the responsibility off of teenagers and blaming parents isn't always the answer. When I went out and did stupid things and lied to my parents about where I was (and EVERY teen has done it at some point), is it my fault for lying to them, sneaking around, or is it their's for not sending an escort along?

Why not take the radical thinking a step farther and say that a runaway teen is the parent's fault for not locking them to a chair?

I can't find any worldwide figures, but I did find some US census info from 2000.

In 2000, the US census bureau found that , "Among people 3 years old or over, 36 percent used the internet at home in 2000, including 18 million children 3 to 17 years, and 75 million adults, 18 years and over."

Don't tell me adults are clueless about computers and the internet. They built it for goodness sake, and over 4 times more adults are using the internet than children. Furthermore, I read that the median age in SL is mid-thirties. That figure comes from LL, by the way.

That probably doesn't matter though, to those who would like hold society 100% responsible for their children. Yes, it takes a village, I know, but the bulk of the responsibilty has to lie with the parents, or our civilisation will continue to degrade at a steadlily faster and faster rate.

Help! My kid is 200 pounds and he's only ten years old! McDonalds! It's ALL YOUR FAULT!