BOT places! List them here!
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Mickey Vandeverre
See you Inworld
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 2,542
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08-02-2008 16:34
From: Cheyenne Marquez A better bottom line would be ...
How would you ever know if there was a better quality product than the one you bought at the bot-infested location, if you were not able to visit the lower, higher-quality, location due to the bot-infested location's deceptive traffic measuring tactics, that caused you to see it before the better quality location? I think you're underestimating the value of other marketing techniques.....and getting too hung up on the value of traffic. Also, underestimating the intelligence of a shopper....thinking that all we do is look for the store with the most traffic. And perhaps not even know who your shopper is. There are many ways you will get my business....none having to do with traffic count. I go way down the search list, to the places that have as few as 5 traffic counts. I want to see new designers, with new products. This is where you find them. I'm bored with the big guys who have high traffic counts. I also want to help the little guys out, and give them encouragement. I use search keywords in the classified ads.....today's mission....type in Retro Furniture. I've seen everything in the top half of the list....now, I work the bottom half. I guarantee that at least one of them will be a new favorite place. I read profiles. I click on their pics....and if I see a new store....I go. I read for new items in the forum. I read posts like this....and if they seem to be a store owner....I click their profile, and go check it out. I don't see that you have a store, Cheyenne....or I might have visited it, today. Except for the fact that your profile comments are a tad negative....and I generally am drawn to the positive. Are you forgetting about Customer Service? Yes - that counts in SL. The gal I get my pools from took half an hour out of her day to come teach me how to do the most basic thing of lowering the land to fit the pool. That was 2 years ago.....and I have purchased every single pool from her, since then.....no reason to use the search. One time....a shop owner actually sent me a note saying "Thank You" for the multiple purchases....OMG...how Unique! That never happens. I will go to her store first, every time I start furnishing a house. If I can get 10 rooms decorated, from her whole store - Awesome - and I never touched the search button. The other day, I asked Phil if I could purchase the fire logs separately out of the fireplace.....for my own fireplaces.....and he went one step further to invite me over to show me how to make it on my own. Next time I start a house...his place will be first stop, too. One gal....who has a very low traffic count....but great items....actually read my profile......(do you ever read the profiles of the people who shop from you? Do you know who your customer is?).....and she sent me a note, and said...."I notice you buy a lot of furniture....I would like to cut you a deal." Smart Woman. Of course....disregard all of the above.....if you would rather spend your time and money trying to capture one hundred 50L a month shoppers.....rather than spend a teeny bit of creative effort (which is usually free)....to capture only ONE 5000L a month shopper. I think you're wasting a lot of time.....getting hung up on traffic counts.....and it tells me, as a Shopper....that you think I'm a moron. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-02-2008 16:54
From: Cheyenne Marquez Oh, don't be so modest Phil. You know more about it than anyone else on this thread.
After all, it was you, and only you, who knew that it "appeared to have worked" but that "it never did" because you sir, you know-it-all. Did you miss my post immediately above the one of yours that I've quoted? |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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08-02-2008 16:59
I apologize for quoting this entire post. Wait, no I don't. Mickey, you're totally alright. You are also above average. Far above. From: Mickey Vandeverre I think you're underestimating the value of other marketing techniques.....and getting too hung up on the value of traffic. Also, underestimating the intelligence of a shopper....thinking that all we do is look for the store with the most traffic. And perhaps not even know who your shopper is.
There are many ways you will get my business....none having to do with traffic count. I go way down the search list, to the places that have as few as 5 traffic counts. I want to see new designers, with new products. This is where you find them. I'm bored with the big guys who have high traffic counts. I also want to help the little guys out, and give them encouragement.
I use search keywords in the classified ads.....today's mission....type in Retro Furniture. I've seen everything in the top half of the list....now, I work the bottom half. I guarantee that at least one of them will be a new favorite place.
I read profiles. I click on their pics....and if I see a new store....I go.
I read for new items in the forum. I read posts like this....and if they seem to be a store owner....I click their profile, and go check it out. I don't see that you have a store, Cheyenne....or I might have visited it, today. Except for the fact that your profile comments are a tad negative....and I generally am drawn to the positive.
Are you forgetting about Customer Service? Yes - that counts in SL. The gal I get my pools from took half an hour out of her day to come teach me how to do the most basic thing of lowering the land to fit the pool. That was 2 years ago.....and I have purchased every single pool from her, since then.....no reason to use the search.
One time....a shop owner actually sent me a note saying "Thank You" for the multiple purchases....OMG...how Unique! That never happens. I will go to her store first, every time I start furnishing a house. If I can get 10 rooms decorated, from her whole store - Awesome - and I never touched the search button.
The other day, I asked Phil if I could purchase the fire logs separately out of the fireplace.....for my own fireplaces.....and he went one step further to invite me over to show me how to make it on my own. Next time I start a house...his place will be first stop, too.
One gal....who has a very low traffic count....but great items....actually read my profile......(do you ever read the profiles of the people who shop from you? Do you know who your customer is?).....and she sent me a note, and said...."I notice you buy a lot of furniture....I would like to cut you a deal." Smart Woman.
Of course....disregard all of the above.....if you would rather spend your time and money trying to capture one hundred 50L a month shoppers.....rather than spend a teeny bit of creative effort (which is usually free)....to capture only ONE 5000L a month shopper.
I think you're wasting a lot of time.....getting hung up on traffic counts.....and it tells me, as a Shopper....that you think I'm a moron.
_____________________
From: Albert Einstein Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
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Koriana Magic
Winged Zebra Unicorn
Join date: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
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08-02-2008 17:54
People dislike the bot/camper manipulation of traffic for the same reason they dislike ad farms.
Both are legit by the rules, but sour the possibility of many doing business with the people that use those tools.
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Angle Thunders
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 30
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08-02-2008 18:11
Not sure why you guys are wasting your time on Phil. He has his vision and the rest of us have ours. Is the way it is. Until LL wants to do something about it then it will never end. Traffic Bots are only a small pain and most likely cause more loss of real traffic then they gain. It is ass clowns like the one's below that cause real issues. I have seen this several times in world so know it is not fake (well the site maybe, but the code isn't). Removed the name for forums TOS but you can find it in the link. http://www.angelfire.com/droid/banbot/From: someone
hey sl hackers and c0ders! I am XXXXXXXXX XXXXXX in SL and for about a month i have been workin on making Second Life bots for AI and chatting!
It was going pretty good but dumb people in the game kept banning my alts from their land for nothing!
Well I think that's not right and so i desided to do something about it! So I invented BanBot.
What is BanBot well BanBot is there to get banned lol. Why? well see Their is a limit of 300 peple that you can ban on your land. i want to pave the way for better bots so I made a crummy one and wrote an interfase to the sl registrtion api. Got that going and now i have almost 100 alt accounts!
So what i am doing now is log them in and getting them banned in popular places so that the ban list is filledup and after that i will bring in the better ones and anyone else can too. hehe so If the banned list gets filled up somewhere the owner can't kick you out permanently just eject you so you can keep logging back in and grief people all you want and camp and whatever you can think up to do!
I read all of the things that people were saying about the bad or dumb bots and my bot does them all so it is real easy to tell. If you want to know what makes it easy to tell you can google for XXXXXXXXXX he tells you everything cuz he likes to complain about things all the time. I will get some links and you will see. Some people just have too much free time.
Stuff the bot does and stuff i did so you can make one or more:
- use the body shape hair and clothes you get for free when you sign up and don't change nothing - for the alt accounts don't make a profile and don't pay (they look for this) - I left out the code for making them look normal (dont use ApearanceManager) - no code to respond to IMs - on some i put the missing image textures - bring a lot into the same place at the same time - make them sit on weird stuff and hog the camp chairs and sometimes pile a cuple on the same chair - want to make them say things like 'go to hell' to peple so residents will abuse report them and tell their friends to band them - maybe give them a sign or shirt that says to ban them - also lot of places and stores do not like copybot so say something about copybot and get banned! :] - do it from your laptop at school or work or the coffee shop so no one knows it is you
I am working on the c0de and if you mail me in world I might give you a copy.
Maybe some screenshots will help too.
laterz -- XXXXXX
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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08-03-2008 00:59
I think someone should compile a BOT list and rank it as to who has the most bots.
See who is number one scammer.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-03-2008 01:43
Hmm, I can't make up my mind whether it's sarcasm or just their idiotic solution to a self imposed problem.
_____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
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Shimmy Shemesh
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 8
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08-03-2008 01:52
Number 1 Bot place would be Second Life Grid. As long as LL allows camping and mass gathering of bots. Sl will be the number 1 Place for amplified/cheated/gamed traffic Take online concurrent log ins and reduce that by 20% (modest figure. Maybe more) and you will have your real Second life grid traffic count. and Registered accounts. It all starts at home.  ) |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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08-03-2008 04:33
From: Koriana Magic People dislike the bot/camper manipulation of traffic for the same reason they dislike ad farms.
Both are legit by the rules, but sour the possibility of many doing business with the people that use those tools. Kinda. Both are arguably *against* the ToS/CS, were it not for special dispensations granted by LL in the form of ultra-restrictive interpretations of "harassment." The ToS case against adfarms has been made many times (in essence, the ability of 1/4096th of a sim to destroy the land values and enjoyment of the entire sim). Traffic manipulation methods could violate the ToS in two ways. On the Mainland, if campers and/or trafficbots interfere with the 40 avatar limit, it would be a ToS alt-abuse problem. (This does get LL attention, and offenses are addressed when reported.) The second way is the pollution of the Traffic metric itself--it's basically the same as noise Event listings or describing parcels with irrelevant popular Search terms. None of those offenses ever get handled either--presumably because enforcement is just too labor intensive. So, traffic-gaming is permitted not so much by a loophole as by the force of a looting mob. But really the ethical question is clouded by Phil's dependence on commercial advantage gained by trafficbots for paying the RL mortgage. So it's the old question: how severe an offense is it for a man to steal bread to feed his starving family? 
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Archived for Your Protection
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 05:09
From: Koriana Magic Both [ad farms and bots] are legit by the rules, but sour the possibility of many doing business with the people that use those tools. Ad farms were often used to intentionally affect the neighbors, which is harassment, and against the ToS. Traffic bots don't affect anybody, and are not against the current ToS according to LL. They *can* be used in ways that are against the ToS, such as filling a sim to the extent of affecting land owners in it, but they are not against the ToS themselves. Whether or not they "sour the possibility of many doing business with the people that use those tools" is the concern of those who use them - nobody else's. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 05:15
From: Qie Niangao But really the ethical question is clouded by Phil's dependence on commercial advantage gained by trafficbots for paying the RL mortgage. So it's the old question: how severe an offense is it for a man to steal bread to feed his starving family? I don't depend on money from SL to pay my mortgage, Qie. I don't have a mortgage. I own my house. I mentioned paying a mortgage earlier (not mine) to suggest that the anti-bot people would sing a different tune if they relied on SL income for RL bills etc. I use bots because I choose to compete, and not because I need to. I assume that the "steal" comment was not intended to apply to anyone here. |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-03-2008 06:46
From: Phil Deakins I don't depend on money from SL to pay my mortgage, Qie. I don't have a mortgage. I own my house. I mentioned paying a mortgage earlier (not mine) to suggest that the anti-bot people would sing a different tune if they relied on SL income for RL bills etc. I use bots because I choose to compete, and not because I need to.
I assume that the "steal" comment was not intended to apply to anyone here. Hmm unless people are physically incapacitated, they could exploit the system here extensively for cash or get off their butt and get a real job for 8 hours a day to pay the mortgage and kids dental bill. If people need to exploit the system to support a lifestyle, I suspect they are living beyond their means. I suppose the Goldfarmers of WoW have mortgages to pay to so it's a fair living to massbot a game, taking items away from players who pay to play. Talented people will earn money here anyway just by their product quality & service.
_____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-03-2008 07:13
Phil wasn't there. He doesn't know what Traffic was like before camping and bots.
But he still will attempt to say Traffic was never about popularity.
He wasn't there.
Camping and bots turned traffic into what it is today, in degrees. First by paying people to visit. Then by people using many accounts to get that money and then by land owners just using lots of accounts.
They ruined the system.
Yeah- The system is ruined today, but it wasn't always.
It was damaged by camp pads.
And it was ruined by people using bots for camping and bots for traffic.
The argument that it never worked is nonsense, especially when the person who says it never did wasn't there.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-03-2008 07:55
From: Colette Meiji Phil wasn't there. He doesn't know what Traffic was like before camping and bots.
But he still will attempt to say Traffic was never about popularity.
He wasn't there.
Camping and bots turned traffic into what it is today, in degrees. First by paying people to visit. Then by people using many accounts to get that money and then by land owners just using lots of accounts.
They ruined the system.
Yeah- The system is ruined today, but it wasn't always.
It was damaged by camp pads.
And it was ruined by people using bots for camping and bots for traffic.
The argument that it never worked is nonsense, especially when the person who says it never did wasn't there. LL ruined it completely when they allowed infinate anonymous accounts to be created by anyone, and they continue to allow it to happen. If people had been restricted to 5 accounts then the problems would never have got so bad.
_____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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08-03-2008 08:34
From: Shimmy Shemesh Number 1 Bot place would be Second Life Grid. As long as LL allows camping and mass gathering of bots. Sl will be the number 1 Place for amplified/cheated/gamed traffic Take online concurrent log ins and reduce that by 20% (modest figure. Maybe more) and you will have your real Second life grid traffic count. and Registered accounts. It all starts at home. ) I agree. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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08-03-2008 09:25
From: Colette Meiji Phil wasn't there. He doesn't know what Traffic was like before camping and bots. . I also think Phil has no idea about the company he is keeping, being a botter and huge size of the population of people internationally, who exploit video games for a living (I'm giving Phil the benefit of the doubt) A company that just lets botters come on and accommodates them, are destroying their own platforn, because game exploiter numbers are huge and they will go wherever there is money to be made and exploit any crack in the system they can find. If left to their own devices, they can cannabalize the entire thing. From: someone But he still will attempt to say Traffic was never about popularity.
He wasn't there.
Camping and bots turned traffic into what it is today, in degrees. First by paying people to visit. Then by people using many accounts to get that money and then by land owners just using lots of accounts.
They ruined the system.
Yeah- The system is ruined today, but it wasn't always.
It was damaged by camp pads.
And it was ruined by people using bots for camping and bots for traffic.
The argument that it never worked is nonsense, especially when the person who says it never did wasn't there. When I first came in SL in early 2006 to look at it, I saw the "dance pads" and sat on them for a few minutes. I had no patience to stay more then a few minutes on a pad. I realized quickly this was not going to make any Lindens for me, but I suspected it was going to be exploited and sure enough, soon I began to notice that an increasing amount of people dancing on the pads had avatars there, but nobody was home, much to the consterrnation of the hopeful club owner using the pads to attract customers. It doesn't take long to see that naive club owners were sinking money into camping to no avail. Of course it all evolved into a pitiful arms race and then the scams and then the bot farms. I watched at least 10 big malls on the most popular list, I had stores in, go under, trying to generate traffic in the arms race to stay on the popular list. When the free accounts came in and so many people had no payment info, etc, it became pretty clear, pretty fast, most of these people weren't really going to become paying customers. It was sad to see so many hard working, aspiring mall and club owners, with great stores, fail and give up, as the real population of active paying residents, was being polluted and diluted with the fake numbers, but they fell into the trap of the camping pad arms races. The once busy malls, stores and builds, were now empty and the quick buck artists were now appearing in droves. |
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Koriana Magic
Winged Zebra Unicorn
Join date: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
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08-03-2008 10:35
From: Phil Deakins Ad farms were often used to intentionally affect the neighbors, which is harassment, and against the ToS. Traffic bots don't affect anybody, and are not against the current ToS according to LL. They *can* be used in ways that are against the ToS, such as filling a sim to the extent of affecting land owners in it, but they are not against the ToS themselves.
Whether or not they "sour the possibility of many doing business with the people that use those tools" is the concern of those who use them - nobody else's. Ad farms are places where ads are posted. They advertise products, it's an advertising tool. Just like filling the traffic count with bots/campers. Both affect other businesses and people. Both affect how the systems work as well. It's only by walking a fine line that people avoid the LL responses. |
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Koriana Magic
Winged Zebra Unicorn
Join date: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
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08-03-2008 10:36
From: Tegg Bode LL ruined it completely when they allowed infinate anonymous accounts to be created by anyone, and they continue to allow it to happen.
If people had been restricted to 5 accounts then the problems would never have got so bad. Well the simple fix is: Only paid accounts count towards traffic and search results. Would kill most bot use off instantly. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 13:01
From: Koriana Magic Ad farms are places where ads are posted.
They advertise products, it's an advertising tool.
Just like filling the traffic count with bots/campers.
Both affect other businesses and people. Both affect how the systems work as well.
It's only by walking a fine line that people avoid the LL responses. Ad farms are understood to be tiny parcels of land, with unslightly ads on them, and set to sell at exhorbitant prices. Their purpose is/was specifically to be unsightly so that neighbors would buy them at the exhorbitant prices. To the best of my knowledge, ad plots are not thought of as being ad farms. I think you are confusing the two. Competing with other businesses, and affecting them through it, is not a negative. Neither of the things you mentioned affect how the system works. You could have said that they affect the workings of the system, but you didn't so I won't say anything about it. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 13:06
Colette:
I saw your post because of it being quoted. You said that I wasn't here, so I don't know about it. You have heard of the wiki, I take it? People don't need to have been here to know quite a lot about things and, from the wiki, I do know about dwell, how it worked, the reason for it, when it was taken out, why it was taken out (something that people here don't seem to know), what it was replaced with, and how that works too. I know much more about it than I did earlier in this thread.
I can say that dwell, and subsequently traffic, were never a measure of popularity. They were measures of feet on land, and that's all. If you disagree, check it out for yourself.
[added]
I don't believe I ever said that traffic was never "about" popularity. If you think I did, let's see a quote please. What I've said all along is that traffic is not a measure of popularity, and it never was. In case you don't see the difference:- LL may well have created dwell and traffic to be about popularity. In fact, dwell was all about popularity. However, the metric they created for it didn't actually measure popularity, and it's replacement still doesn't.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 13:20
From: Phil Deakins Colette:
I can say that dwell, and subsequently traffic, were never a measure of popularity. They were measures of feet on land, and that's all. If you disagree, check it out for yourself. What kind of mind games do you have to play to say that "feet on land" is not popularity? But of course when you lie to your customers and say you have had more visitors than you have really had by running a bot farm, I guess you have to play those games to sleep at night.
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
FULL
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 13:24
Welcome back to the thread, Chris. Without your stupidities, it tended to get a bit flat. From: Chris Norse What kind of mind games do you have to play to say that "feet on land" is not popularity? I suggest you read the thread if you want to know why traffic != popularity. No mind games - just fact. From: Chris Norse But of course when you lie to your customers and say you have had more visitors than you have really had by running a bot farm, I guess you have to play those games to sleep at night. Evidence please, or are you just a liar as well as stupid? Show me any customers who I've lied to. You can look, but you won't find any. |
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Mickey Vandeverre
See you Inworld
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 2,542
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08-03-2008 13:27
I'm going to bust in one more time....as I just visited an absolutely wonderful designer's showroom.
He was quite creative in the way he got me there.
We did have a discussion on traffic and bots. And other ways to increase traffic. His items are so wonderful and unique....and he has only been open a week.....that perhaps a thread on increasing traffic in creative ways......would be more beneficial and enlightening and encouraging.......than an argument over the ethics of using bots.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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08-03-2008 15:46
From: Phil Deakins I don't believe I ever said that traffic was never "about" popularity. If you think I did, let's see a quote please Here you go... From: Phil Deakins It is a measure of av minutes on a parcel of land. It is *not* a measure of the parcel's popularity, and it never has been. Of course now you'll claim that you were talking about a "measure" which isn't the same as it being "about" popularity. It depends on what your definition of is is. 
_____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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08-03-2008 16:16
From: Chip Midnight Here you go... Of course now you'll claim that you were talking about a "measure" which isn't the same as it being "about" popularity. It depends on what your definition of is is. Well, Chip. If you read the rest of my post that you quoted from, you might just get an understanding of what it says. It would have allowed you to avoid such a mistake. I won't write it again - it's only a few posts back. I'll give you a clue. It starts with "In case you don't see the difference:- ", and is located in the same paragraph as the part that you quoted. [added] Alright. here it is in a nutshell... Dwell and traffic were about popularity - dwell especially. They were intended to represent popularity, but neither actually measured popularity. They measured something different. |