BOT places! List them here!

There's no difference between "traffic" and "dwell". The terms are used interchangably. What changed is that LL no longer rewards it with stipend bonus, or back in the old days for a short spell, real cash. And although I don't have anything to prove they did stop those monetary rewards due to manipulation, you don't have anything to prove they did not. It's perfectly reasonable to speculate that it at least factored into the decision.

They have taken steps to make traffic/dwell less relevant, mostly it seems by diluting it with other metrics, and I don't think it would be terribly difficult to find references to camping as having been a factor.

Wow, I haven’t read this entire thread (don’t have time).

I have zero interest in making money out of SL, for me it passes time and occasionally I like to rent and decorate the odd house or apartment.

I don’t give a toss about traffic bots, until this thread, I didn’t really know or care about their existence.

I don’t know what Phil has done to piss you all off, but as an average, non technical consumer, I just like to shop for furniture, the lower the prim the better. Couldn’t care less about traffic or bots or politics.........the only thing that annoys me is non relevant key words.

So to the average non geek Second Lifer, I doubt the bots are an issue.

That's probably mostly true. Until you run into situations where bots are used irresponsibly with regard to simulator resources (which is probably not the case with Phil)

Or something else that may not be immediately apparent - you as a consumer might not see an alternative to Phil's low prim furniture, because Phil and others who use bots to inflate their traffic dominate the top pages of the search results, while more honest competitors are burried at the bottom of the pile.

Ok forgive my ignorance, I really know very little about any of this.I can see your point, all these things I was unaware of until reading this thread. It hadn't occurred to me how the search results were generated or on what basis, but that makes sense.

I guess Phil and others and just being particularly enterprising, after all, what is the right or most honest way of getting on top of the search results.......is there one?

Thank you Zaphod.

BTW, isn't it interesting how all of the tenured residents who were here to experience traffic/dwell first hand for what it was, all agree on that it measured popularity, including LL who obviously enough titled the category "Popular Places" in search. Yet all of these new residents, who arrived here just recently, are telling us we are all wrong and framing it with these flimsy excuses, and idiotic play on words to justify what is obviously immoral and unethical behavior.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't try to justify anything. I do what I do regardless of the views of a dozen or so people in this forum. Y'know - the ones who aren't in slightest bit interested in facts. For instance, even Colette and Zaphod agreed that traffic/dwell isn't/wasn't a measure of popularity. Who are you?

Bella:

What I do that pisses them off is that I use traffic bots to rise up the Places tab rankings. There is no other way for a place to do it, except sit back and wait for word of mouth to push it slowly up the rankings - not very enterprising. A few people here dislike the traffic bots a lot, and are very vociferous about it. That's all there is to it. They know that being high in the rankings doesn't cause anyone to buy anything from the places, and that people only buy what they like, so that's not their reasoning.

Zaphod makes an intersting point, but it doesn't hold up. Everyone can't be at or near the top, so even if there were no traffic bots or camping in SL, only a few places will be at or near the top, and the rest will be much lower down. People will still have to look in many places if they want to see what's available. Using bots is simply a matter of doing something to get to the top of the right rankings - e.g. furniture rankings for furniture stores.

You give too much benefit of the doubt, Zaphod. Do you honestly think he sits there at his computer 24/7 making sure the sim isn't full because of his bot farm? If you believe that I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing.

Hey, I'm trying to be diplomatic. It's a new thing for me, so cut me some slack

He might give some people too much benefit of the doubt, but not me. Throwing another piece of pure imagination into the mix, Chip. You never learn, do you.

You've been here since 2003 - a very long time. You've been described in this thread as a very good designer and you sell your things, and yet you don't make enough money from it to support you. You said you'd like to make more money from SL, but still you have to do RL work for a living. Interesting.

Chip, you state the obvious.

Why would any person running a bot farm in order to leap-frog over "the rest" in search, in an effort to deceive honest consumers into believing they are "more popular" than "the rest," give a heap about how "the rest" might be affected by their bot farm?

See my previous post

You mean this ...



He already explained himself earlier in the thread when he stated the following ...



It was very well said and quite memorable to those of us who hold similar morals and ethics.

It was, however, lost on you.

I wonder why?

Ya know, I think this thread has more than run its course. All ideas are out on the table, and if you've noticed, it's been going round in circles for the last 30 pages.

We're done with saying new things. We're just saying the same things differently now.

Onward.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/67/55/23325567.jpg

huh?

It's weird to tell a scammer and unethical fraud, they ought to be honest. yes I know. No honor system for Phil Deakins. No idealism. Not a drop.

Not only have you no respect for others, you have no self-respect. If you did you would rather take pride in running an honest business and rely on good products.

Clearly your customers are unsuspecting newbies in Second Life, most of whom would run away from shopping with you if they knew the issue. Eventually people will catch on. It's like spammers of Nigerian emails--they rely on some people being very stupid and naive.

You are right, Going on with this is pointless.

It's time LL does something about it.

Let me wrap it up, and give some opinions of mine on the way

- Once upon a time, dwell/traffic was a measure of popularity, according to some. Not according to Phil, at least not a good measure.
Well, I agree, even without having been there, that probably in the beginning of SL, traffic was such a measure. Because there were no bots/camping pads, the more people on a parcel, the more popular. Probably true.
But don't forget, when Phil came in, and most certainly when I came in, traffic was already in no way related to popularity. That system was doomed from the start, and no one probably knows who was the first to use camping pads. Which means that in order to compete as a business, you simply had to use traffic tools. No matter how idealistic you are, it is very obvious that to compete in a serious way, you have to look at your competition.
As soon as bots came in view, camping was doomed as well. Running 20 bots costs nothing then the power of the pc they run on, where camping costs actual money. So why bother paying people, where you can get your traffic for free.

- Bots are a problem in SL due to the use of resources.
Nice statement, but not backed up by facts. The only fact we know of, is that Linden Labs has no problem with bots. So probably they do not strain the system that much. Some basic technical knowledge does show, however, that 20 bots put less loads on the critical servers, then 1 average avatar.

- Bots are a problem in SL because they make ones ranking higher.
Well yes, they do. They can get you on 1 in Places Search, if you run enough of them. So if you look for a low prim couch, it is hard not to end up at Phil's. And you will not find me, using places search, while I could pretty well make better couches (example). Tough luck for me, I'd say. No one could stop me from running bots myself to get higher in Search Places, but I choose not to. No reason to complain I am lower in search ranking then, is there? And that comes from the competition, me!

Now, no matter whether you like it, bots are an allowed tool to get traffic. Really, they are. And as long as they are, businesses are allowed to run them. So no, Phil is no crook, no dishonest person, but someone using a tool that is allowed. So again, you do not have to like it, but to use words like crook, immoral, and so on, is simply childish.

Saying you dislike bots, is perfectly okay. Proving they do harm to SL, is perfectly okay as well (though it's something I never saw done). Throwing mud at people using tools that are within the TOS, is stupid.

Marcel

it's NOT within the TOS

It's part of community standards and any honest person would understand that.

LL has to stop bots and till then they continue to savage the situation.

Really, looks way better if you quote the whole sentence, and not some words, even if that fits your purpose better.

With "within the TOS", I ment: not against the TOS, not a native speaker so this part might have been unclear.

Go tell Linden Labs they have to stop bots because YOU think it is dishonest. Try to keep a straight face too. Your idea over honesty is not everyones. A handful of forum people think it is dishonest, the rest of the population does not give a sh*t. Live with that.

Finally: traffic bots will eventually go away, as traffic is removed as important search parameter. In Search All you can see that perfectly well. So in the end, there is not much to worry about. But hey, if traffic is gone, there will be other things you percive as dishonest.

Yep.

I win no points with either camp here because I think using bots to inflate Traffic is disgraceful of the botrunner, but it's beneficial in that it hastens the demise of Traffic and all parcel metrics intended as proxies for "Popularity," an anachronistic construct that just doesn't scale. So I'm in the weird position of agreeing with both camps, thereby pissing-off everybody equally.

But anyway, exactly right: as much as I think trafficbots give the owner a look of desperation and greed, the same is true for paid Profile Picks, misleading parcel descriptions, fake "Events," and the like. They're all ways to "compete" without improving the product or service itself, nor communicating an actual advertising message.

But the ecnomist's "moral hazard" will occur in any market. The difference here is the possible effects such actions can have on the marketplace itself: rendering Events a totally useless category of search for example--which I think endangers SL's viability as a platform; or obsoleting Popularity and its proxies--which I think is a huge win.

Perfect example of how different persons have different values without slandering eachother!

Paid Profile Picks differ from misleading parcel descriptions and fake events, because they do not try to get customers to the store without delivering what people were looking for in the first place.
- Lets say I use "free sex" in my parcel description, where I only sell furniture. Many people coming to my parcel, will be disappointed.
- Lets say I post an event on my parcel, where there is none, people will be disappointed. People not being able to find a decent event because I post advertisements for my business, will also be disappointed.
- Lets say I pay for Picks. Well, I even do that. Each and every person coming to my store because I have a good search ranking, finds what they are looking for: Low prim furniture. Okay, they might not like my designs. Or they might be looking for an item I did not create yet. But they do get exactly the items they searched for.

Now certain people say, this is not honest because the searchers cannot find the shops that were in the top 10 before I arrived. That is to me a senseless argument, as this will always happen when businesses do not pay attention to what is happening around them. There is room for 10 stores in the top 10, and you have to work to get on that page.
The competition can optimize too, so they will stay in the top 10. But for every store in the top 10, there are 10 more stores not in the top 10. And probably on rank #99 there is a store that has much prettier low prim stuff then I have. But apparantly they do not work on getting noticed. No one can blame me for that.

Qie, your post are always welcome as they show someone with intelligence. Thanks for showing in this thread, its quite possible to discuss without throwing mud

I am interested in having a fashion model bot, how do I go about that?
I'd like one for my store to display clothing etc.

Or find a noob who could be trusted.... to stay there....

1. Register a new account (Alt account).
2. Dress that one up as you want it: skin, shape, hair, clothes, so its the model you like
3. Put down a posing pad, and stand on it, to see wether its what you want. Name the pad so you can find it in step 5.
4. Log out, and log the Alt in with Sleek (text-based SL client).
5. Put the Alt account on the pad you created

That is about all there is to it. Of course you will need a machine that is on 24/7.

'Paid Profile Picks differ from misleading parcel descriptions and fake events, because they are not misleading parcel descriptions and fake events.'

Fixed!


I only dip into this thread now and again, so I may have missed the post(s) where Phil might have argued that Profile Picks were NEVER a measure of Popularity. Such an argument would be completely in line with his argument on Traffic.
Leading from that it would be logical (in Phil's view) that it doesn't matter what LL's intentions might have been or what some Utopian headbangers might consider to be the proper use of Picks.