Can we not be included when linden labs talk about "the community" ?

If thats how LL defines the community - By what people are ARing about, they really, REALLY need to get a clue.


Of course I think you are probably right.

Its not that Linden Labs shouldnt be allowed to decide what to do with Second Life -

Its just they should stop claiming that "WE" told them to do it.

Agreed

Disney Laws, Burt and Ernie Laws, Kermit the Frog Anti-beastality Laws (After Miss Piggy Abused him for the last time.)etc. But atleast they are always understood unlike LLABS laws...........

I vote that we follow Hammurabi's Code.

/327/c1/188156/2.html

Honestly, I don't know... but one thing is for sure, everyone does it.

Broccoli

subscribe me!

And once they decide, to tell us in plain (Insert your language here).

I think I see the problem. "WE" are not the community to which LL is refering. The 'community' is LL's lawyers standing around in their cover-our-asses underwear.

Maybe in the real world as a whole, but many people come to Second Life just to unwind and relax, and they want to do their improving and profiting in the real world. Importantly though, this does not mean they don't improve Second Life too - for some people, creating things in SL is a pleasurable activity in its own right, and those things are often good (although the amount of "room" for them will become limited as professionals arrive in the markets)

thats fine - then they should say

"Due to the pressure of our lawyers in unflattering underwear ..."

Here's what I tink, cuz no-one asked.

First the "community" get used when a sizably controversial issue comes up. The Keeping Second Life Safe, Together blog entry being a good example, as well as those on casinos and sexual ageplay posted prior to that. The "community" seems to spek mostly in reaction to issues at hand.

With that said, I suspect the community could be defined as such.

Second Life residents and Linden Lab staffmembers who have opted to speak out in a public fashion (including these forums, which I'm sure some LL staffmembers actually do look and lurk) and/or have contacted Linden Lab about their concerns, combined with a general sense of what is offensive based on a common sense approach. Over this is also the concerns of Second Life's legal counsel as well as concerns abotu negative publicity's effect on the viability of Second Life as a whole, which might cause some "community" feedbck to rise above others.

We, of course, would have a somewhat different defintion.

I suspect there are some things that *most* Second Life residents would find offensive within public spaces in Second Life. Swastika-bearing neo-Nazis marching through Waterhead, an depiction of obvious sexual ageplay in the SL04 region, or simulated rape in Orientation Island Public. This, to me, would be pretty obviously "broadly offensive."

The problem, in this instance, is dat it is not made clear beyond that point. We know some "broadly offensive" activities (sexual ageplay) can be actioned even in private, consentual spaces. We also know that much less "broadly offnsive" content has the potentional for being actionable (as seen in the Daniel Linden blog). We really *do* need to worry about slippery slopes and such, and the invoking of "community" in future bans.

To my knowledge, there have been a few times that the actual community (in this case, a sizable number of actual residents) have spoken out and made for change in LL policy. Copybot, Project Open Letter, and -- if I recall -- viewer 1.13 or so (there was a rollback in there somewhere, I seem to recall). I suspect, too, the outcry over the Daniel Linden blog entry also caught some at Linden Lab unaware, and might too lead to some very quiet change

At least I c'n hope!

Mari

I think it is like real life in that people include and exclude themselves from the communities they feel most in tune with. Forum Cartel anyone?

My point is that people no matter how open minded, choose who they listen to and who they don't. If you look at this forum, you tend to all listen to each other a lot so you are a community too...

I have to say that I have a real problem with people who present themselves as caring about larger issues like free speech and human rights when this forum is the only place they really express that. Its good to have the discussion about such things but be self aware of your own motivations and interests. For example what part of your SL experience is actually threatened by what LL is doing? Or is it only theoretical at this point. I would love it if people were clear about this. Please don't use the rhetoric of free speech if you are concerned that in the future you won't be able to give Betsy her daily beating and feel great about it. SL is not the place to make your kink normal.

To be clear, in both my RL and SL, I am completely supportive of what people want to do behind closed doors is their own biz (except for harming the innocent). However I don't want what they do to become the norm for everyone no matter what it is..vanilla or kink. All that LL has done as far as I can tell is ask people to take it down a notch and keep both private. Maybe a few people will AR their neighbors for that but has it actually happened?
And if they do, my understanding is that vanilla is at the same risk.

It's not that I want any changes here, I think its important people get heard but just don't discount the people who don't agree with you. I find it ironic that many of you present yourselves as being champions of open mindedness and yet can find nothing of value in opinions that don't mesh with your own.

Forum Cartel...

If we had any sense, NOW would be a good time for the "community" to rise up and tell Linden Labs to stop blaming us for decisions THEY make in our name.

It could be possible that LL doesn't ask anyone anything when checking the pulse of what they view as "the community" but bases it on what they're told through the loudest and most direct means.

Considering there are around 30k-40k active residents coupled with the amount of people that actually post in the forums and leave comments on the blogs (you see the same 10+ people on each for the most part) you have to concede that this is no majority.

It is possible that there is a large group of people that don't frequent the forums or blogs (obviously dead-ends for giving feedback to LL) but actually call LL's offices and leave multiple ARs and e-mails giving their opinion on things. It is possible that these people don't share your opinions and even though they speak their minds with fewer words than most on the forums (me included ) they speak them more efficiently through more productive channels.

I do know for a fact that LL receives a considerable amount of calls to their offices outside of the regular channels setup for customer service.

A lot of people also seem to be missing the point of Danny L's "broadly offensive" rule. He outlined it in a video that was discussed here about a month ago when this subject wasn't tired and old yet. He doesn't want to get into specific guidelines so they don't paint themselves into a corner in certain situations. I don't agree with that approach but I can see where they're coming from.

Now, my experience in SL has shown me that there actually ARE several people that take offense to the things that are being brought into question. There are a lot of people in SL that are easily offended in general.

For example there were a couple situations that happened last night when my g/f and I were in with a group of friends that invited some other people out to kick it. One got offended because my g/f cussed (she's kinda like a sailor...that's hot) when she was giving him a compliment! There were a couple people that decided to be somewhat offended over certain handicaps they have when people mentioned them in jest...not knowing they had such handicaps to begin with. "it's probably AIDS." "Shut up! I have AIDS!" "Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know"...that kind of thing (only not AIDS).

These situations didn't really lead to major war but it showed there are a lot of people out there that get offended fairly easily and can be vocal about it when they feel the need. Make no mistake there are plenty of these people that know how to circumvent the customer service/AR maze LL put up to buy themselves time!

I don't agree with most judgement calls LL has made when it comes to the broadly offensive situation but in general I can see where they're coming from having worked in customer service as long as I have.

They're a company that has to worry about their image as much as their profits. Some companies handle screaming customers championing their cause by conceding to make them go away. LL seems to want to have everyone like them and be buddies with everyone...friends rather than autorities. That doesn't work outside of SF!!

Also, they obviously aren't going to put up a poll in the forums to get your opinions. If they did they'd be crucified for sure! Just look at back when they responded to posts in the forums and the blog!

So for all those who are upset that they don't feel represented when a decision is being handed down on behalf of "the community", you should probably look into other means to get your personal opinion across.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


If LL is watching us (in theory) and the lawyers and the police are watching us and LL, who are watching the lawyers and the police? I agree with you to a certain extent about a lot of crazy shit (and bugger off anyone who has a problem with me saying shit in a forum post) goes on in the name of free speech and way more than justifiable but many people have brought up the good point and that is that we cannot obey everyone's laws, make all the press happy (as much as LL's PR guys would like that) and have a good <sic> "community" at the same time... and a community based purely on greed and personal ego is no community at all, a community that is based on more noble things but also pursues greed and personal goals is a community made of humans, or hobbits, or dwarves, or elves, oh yes and wizards.

That's an RL politics issue which you'd have to take up outside SL, I'm afraid.

LL have to deal with RL politics the same way everyone else does.

Ain't it the truth!

Mari

Joining the OP. Nobody ever consulted me about any issue "the community" supposedly decided. (Of course, it is true they didn't have to ask in my case, but still.) If they are going to say "the community" has decided, then they have to develop a mechanism for polling "the community" or be laughed off the stage as hypocrites, and have whatever point they were trying to make dismissed and trivialized. Just say it straight: "WE, LL, the Olympian Gods of SL, have determined..." People will still bitch, but at least the issues will be a lot cleaner.

Thanks Chris!

The way i see it is that LL is simply using the "community" as a butt cover in the way "oh but we thought this was what the community wanted so we did it, it has nothing to do with our lawyers"

"Community" went out the window with Open Source.

Fairness and consideration gave way to hackers and exploitive measures hiding behind the draconian TOS.

The diversity of things to see and do within Second Life is almost unimaginable, but our community (excepted Kyrah Abattoir, Rusty Dagger , <insert name> , ... , <insert name> has made it clear to us that certain types of content and activity are simply not acceptable in any form."