Taaaa Daaaaa! Problem solved. (well, maybe not)
"Lag up your traffic bot! Get yer gizmo here! Guaranteed to raise your ARC score by 10,000!"
...and we think we got a problem with bots causing lag NOW? LOL
Like you said... maybe not!
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Kalderi Tomsen
Nomad Extraordinaire!
Join date: 10 May 2007
Posts: 888
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05-02-2008 15:05
Right, until we see in the new product announcements: "Lag up your traffic bot! Get yer gizmo here! Guaranteed to raise your ARC score by 10,000!" ...and we think we got a problem with bots causing lag NOW? LOL Like you said... maybe not! _____________________
Kalderi, General Manager, Hosoi Ichiba and Hosoi Design
- - - Hosoi Ichiba - High Quality Classically-styled Asian buildings, furniture and home decorations in an old-fashioned Japanese market garden on Japan Kanto. http://hosoi-ichiba.blogspot.com/ Hosoi Design - High Quality prefabs and furnishings, plus commercial buildings. |
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Madhu Maruti
aka Carter Denja
Join date: 6 Dec 2007
Posts: 749
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05-02-2008 15:22
If it's a separate non-visible attachment that you wear and you don't want the hassle of taking out the poses and putting them in a HUD AO simply attach it to a hud attachment point, turn on transparent and drag it offscreen .Wow, this is so cool. I did not know that a scripted attachment designed to be worn might still work if attached as a HUD instead. Now that I think about it, though, it makes perfect sense. I have a personal planner gadget that, like the AO mentioned upthread, is a multi-prim little devicey thing that totally doesn't have to look like that since I always wear it invisible. Yet, I discovered after reading this thread, it was adding 450 points to my ARC. So I attached it as a HUD - and - it still works! And now adds nothing to my ARC. Thanks! _____________________
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Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
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05-02-2008 16:45
Ohmigosh! Kitty, I never knew you could do that - but I just tried it with the ARC-heavy no-modify transparent walk attachment. I'm walking my walk and the ARC counter didn't even stutter! Brilliant! Thank you so much! Well I took off my Sexy Walk and opted for an AO walk thingie - took off the sexy - went from 1436 or what ever it was to 535. Hope this actually does help something - I am willing to change the walk- but not the clothes and hair _____________________
"Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. "
Robert A. Heinlein  http://talonfaire.blogspot.com/ Visit Talon Faire Main: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Misto%20Presto/216/21/155- Main Store XStreets: http://tinyurl.com/6r7ayn |
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
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05-02-2008 17:30
Cracking up over that last bit... About the AO - I use your std sexy walk that came with some shoes eons ago and was copyable so I have added it to all my ready outfits - I just made a thought out outfit trying to minimize ARC to see how it would affect me - everything was humming at 440 tops til I wore the Sexy Walk - that put me at 1436 - can that be changed? TIA That's the same one I use probably. If you rez it on the ground and zoom in on it (highlight transparent) you can see it's made up of a whole bunch of little prims. That's why it affects the score so much. All you gotta do is edit it and drag/copy all of its contents to a folder in your inventory. Then just make a box, shrink it, apply a full transparent texture to it, and then drag the old AO's contents into the empty box. Then just give it a name, pick it up and attach it to a location and your score will drop by over 50% for that item alone. This is just for a walk ONLY replacer you might attach to your body... don't wear it on your HUD, use the old one for that. |
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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05-02-2008 17:41
As for an explanation on why anything alpha is so costly, you're probably better off asking one of the gurus in the Texturing forum or hope one of them (*waves to Chosen  *) jumps in .The reason that alpha textures are so expensive is because each one uses 8 more bits than a non-alpha texture. In a non-alpha texture, you're only seeing 3 channels: Red, Green, and Blue, at 8 bits each, for a total of a 24-bit texture. The alpha is an entirely new channel, adding another 8 bits to the texture, bringing it up to 32 bits. This means that all alpha textures are 25% more expensive to render (did I do the math right?) |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-02-2008 18:16
The reason that alpha textures are so expensive is because each one uses 8 more bits than a non-alpha texture. In a non-alpha texture, you're only seeing 3 channels: Red, Green, and Blue, at 8 bits each, for a total of a 24-bit texture. The alpha is an entirely new channel, adding another 8 bits to the texture, bringing it up to 32 bits. This means that all alpha textures are 25% more expensive to render (did I do the math right?) I don't really want to give the explanation in my head since it's garbled together from things that I didn't really fully get in the first place and was probably an explanation that applies to something a lot simpler than the viewer  . When you render an opaque face, you use the depth buffer to test the depth/z-order of a pixel. If it's in front you end up rendering it, if it's behind something else you don't need to render since it won't be visible anyway (this is different from occlussion culling though). You can render everything's that's opaque in one single pass. In order to render alpha faces you need to render in multiple passes, one for each, but you first have to figure out which one is in front of which other one (alpha sorting) as well. The more alpha faces there are, the more passes you add to rendering and hence the slower things get. That's my *very* crude understanding of why alpha is a problem. Hopefully someone will pick up the pieces I got right and give a more authorative answer .(Edited to add that alpha also has a more indirect cost since it works contrary to occlussion culling. An opaque prim will occlude everything behind it so you don't even need to 'depth render/test' those behind the opaque prim at all, you know they're not visible and occlusion culling is faster than depth testing. Alpha adds more to render in addition to more render passes) |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-02-2008 18:16
The reason that alpha textures are so expensive is because each one uses 8 more bits than a non-alpha texture. In a non-alpha texture, you're only seeing 3 channels: Red, Green, and Blue, at 8 bits each, for a total of a 24-bit texture. The alpha is an entirely new channel, adding another 8 bits to the texture, bringing it up to 32 bits. This means that all alpha textures are 25% more expensive to render (did I do the math right?)  _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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FireEyes Fauna
Registered User
Join date: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 138
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05-02-2008 18:52
I'm not sure how much your own number effects your own experience.
When I first heard of this feature a few weeks ago I wanted to see how high I could get my ARC number. I created a largish torus and cut it so that it was tiny (which I guess doesn't matter?) and applied a 100% transparent texture. Then I copied it so that I could link up 250 of them (I think, whatever the max was for a link object). Then I attached them to as many points as I could. Had my ARC over 100k at times, and I didn't really notice a performance drop on my end. It was at the Shelter, and I didn't get too many complaints about the lag going up when I wore them either. This might be a case of the formula just doing it's job, but the net outcome not being that big of a deal for rendering. |
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Brandi Lane
Registered User
Join date: 2 Apr 2007
Posts: 157
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05-02-2008 18:58
Really, the bottom line is that this is a good thing. I took a look at my ARC score and it was 3900 wearin gnothing but hair and a bikini.
*peers closely at her hair* *gets out her scissors* *snip* *snip* *snip* Presto.. new hair.. Looks almost identical to the old hair, but now it's ARC is 1200 instead of 3900. I'm seeing a whole new business in decently designed hair. All you negative people can whine and moan forever about all the ways that other negative people are going to rain on your parade.. but me, I just did my part and I look the same as I always did. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-02-2008 19:22
Presto.. new hair.. Looks almost identical to the old hair, but now it's ARC is 1200 instead of 3900.  I'd guess you're not wearing prim hair but flat-prim alpha textured hair?  Regular prim hair is going to be far more ARC-friendly that the "textured curl" styles. The hair I wore today had an ARC of 36. |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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05-02-2008 19:42
The discussion of how textures with alpha layers add to rendering costs is interesting, and at least to me, shows how this ARC tool is just one small piece of helping to solve lag.
The only meaningful limit that Linden Labs has put on anyone's use of resources is prim count on land. I recently moved to a small, 512m of land, basically to save money. I just can't afford to pay a lot of tier. In building my house, I just have 117 prims to work with, so I have to make every single prim count. To compensate for lack of prims, I make huge use of textures with alpha layers. My walls with windows- one big prim with lots of windows via alpha textures. Fencines and rails- one big prim with the alpha layers of texture doing to create posts and rails. Screen door- one prim, lots of little holes via alpha texture. I wonder then if some of these effects may be way less resource-intensive if I could create them through prims, rather than use of alpha textures. Incidentally, in the building tutorials I read when I first came to SL (the sources of the tutorials I don't remember), many suggested using textures with alpha layers as a way to create effects and save on precious prim count. Linden Labs needs to find a more comprehensive way to manage resource usage and encourage efficiency from content creators. |
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Dakota Tebaldi
Voodoo Child
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 1,873
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05-02-2008 20:05
In my typical outfit, I have an ARC of 236. I am a veritable GOD of non-lag-induciveness.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-02-2008 20:18
Linden Labs needs to find a more comprehensive way to manage resource usage and encourage efficiency from content creators. The biggest issue with occlusion culling performance is that very few builds have any significant occluders due to overuse of transparencies and walls that leak (have cracks between prims). I'd encourage any builders to take a good look at how professional level designers layout environments in video games. In "World of Warcraft," for example, there are no windows, and you can never see the complex items inside a building from the outside. In "Call of Duty 4," there are plenty of windows, but you can never see into a window on one side of the building and out the window on the other side, effectively making every building an occluder. Compare this to Second Life, where every building has floor to ceiling windows and no inside walls. Some simple tricks to keep your windows and not kill performance are to make your windows opaque from the outside. This is the perception people have of windows in real life, so doing this will often make a build look "cleaner" or less cluttered. Some builds that play really well with occlusion culling are the cyberpunk city in Suffugium and the giant cube maze in Q. Let me know if you know of others. The other major limiting factor for performance in SL is the small batch size. On average, SL draws about 70 triangles per drawing call. In theory, increasing that number to 200 triangles per drawing call could improve rendering performance by 200%. The primary reason the draw size is so small is because we have to break batches to switch textures and to sort transparent objects to be rendered in depth order. This is why people in the graphics world are making such a fuss over "megatexturing" and similar techniques. These techniques combine all visible textures into a single large texture so all your geometry can be rendered with a single draw call. These techniques require artist intervention from the get go, however, so most are not applicable to SL. The technique that is applicable is good ol' fashioned texture atlasing, which is merely combining several textures into a single texture and modifying object texture coordinates to reference the part of that larger texture that contains the texture the object was originally referencing. Since textures in SL are streaming, though, generating atlases for your builds will result in ugly artifacts as textures load, so the correct solution is probably something between megatexturing and atlasing, where atlases are generated on-the-fly by the viewer and tailored to align texture borders within the atlas along mip borders according to the amount of the texture that's been downloaded so far. We've (somewhat intentionally) done a very poor job at Linden Lab of educating builders on how to be performance conscious, which I think plays a large part in the overall sluggishness of the viewer. This is part of a philosophy that says it should be possible to build a content authoring system where artists don't need to care about performance implications, as the software should just deal with whatever comes its way appropriately. What we've seen, however, is that people (even technically minded people) consume as many resources as are available to them until performance reaches a level they deem is unacceptable, so the more efficient your renderer becomes, the more ludicrous the demands become. In SL, this usually means the performance becomes that of the lowest common denominator in terms of what is acceptable. That is, if you think performance is important and build a nice house with opaque window exteriors and few textures, you'll still have a bad experience if your neighbor thinks a flexi-prim bamboo forest is the bees knees. The free market is winning out here (Otherland sims and similar, managed estates do better than private estates with no building standards), but it's slow going, and an initiative to document the best ways to build beautifully and efficiently is probably in order. |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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05-02-2008 21:02
You do have a few little gems like the excerpt below from a Linden which offers a few good points and insight into why LL itself doesn't specify any building guidelines/techniques: That was an interesting post, but I think it may look too narrowly at possible solutions. Mandating particular building techniques is not the only way to solve the problem that there is little incentive for efficient building. If the different ways in which particular residents put stress on computational resources can be quantified and tracked, then I'd think it may be possible to set some sort of resource-use quota per user. That leaves the efficiency decisions to the user. Since I'm no programmer, I didn't necessarily know how feasible it would be to quantify the different ways in which individual users use up the computational resources. However, the debugging tool like this ARC thing suggests to me that it is feasible. If these ARC scores accurately reflect how avatars are stressing computational resources, it would seem to me possible to go the next step, and limit each avatar to an ARC of 4000, or something (I'm not terribly familiar with the numbers yet, just giving arbitrary examples). Whether those ARC points are devoted to hair, or attachments, or what not are user choices. Though my idea wouldn't just be limited to an avatar- it would be related to everything about a resident that stresses computational resources (scripts, rezzed objects, anything under their control). So if you were obsessed about your avatar appearance, but didn't care about nifty scripted gadgets so much, you could just use all of your resources on your avatar appearance. It's an idea to force residents to account for the costs of their resource usage, without mandating particular design techniques, or particular ways to experience Second Life. It's a simple fact that people are going to waste resources if they are not forced to account for the consequences of the waste. That's not just for an online community; that's for any community anywhere. I understand the reasons why Linden Labs does not want to mandate particular design techniques, and there are good reasons. But mandating particular design techniques is not the only way to deal with the problem. |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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05-03-2008 03:08
I really wouldn't like the idea of a resource quota which could not be exceeded. An absolute limit could have a debilitating effect on creativity.
I do like the idea of the resource consumption of avatars and builds being visible to all. Right now, people are building/making what might superficially appear to be the same generic thing, but with wildly differing resource consumption because of the techniques used. We've had "SL's effect on your RL" threads in which people look at things in RL and find themselves thinking "Wow. I wonder how many prims in that?". If we had a culture in SL of wondering about the entire resource consumption of an avatar or build, that would be a good thing. The comments in the ARC blog post and in the forums highlight a misconception that load is more related to the_number_of_objects_stuck_on than it is to how_those_objects_are_made. Many people appeared to mistakenly think that any limit or peer pressure to reduce ARC score necessarily meant a downward plunge in a Ruth direction. I would suggest that a good awareness-raising move would be for people to get a pop-up when the attach or remove something. "After attaching(/removing) article XYZ, your ARC Score is x. Previously it was y. Lower score are better. See ........." That pop-up could be selectable in Preferences, but defaulted to On. The reason for this would be to educate. Something buried in a Debug menu won't have enough reach - particularly when that menu has to be turned on with a CTRL-D in the first place. Something similar could be done when people rezz things. I'd keep the existing ARC thing and extend it to objects. _____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589 |
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
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05-03-2008 09:38
You do have a few little gems like the excerpt below from a Linden which offers a few good points and insight into why LL itself doesn't specify any building guidelines/techniques: Good article, thank you Kitty for posting that. "The biggest issue with occlusion culling performance is that very few builds have any significant occluders due to overuse of transparencies and walls that leak (have cracks between prims). I'd encourage any builders to take a good look at how professional level designers layout environments in video games. " One of the problems here is that professional level designers on other platforms have things called occlusion objects (planes, zones, and solids) whose only purpose of existance is to return solid, useable occlusion data no matter what the build is like or how leaky the structure is. A "significant occluder" in SL would be a large, truly non-existant prim (no calculations are done on it) that functions like an occlusion zone. From the outside, nothing inside it would be rendered, and from inside the outside world need not be rendered. One could place one of these "invisiboxes" inside your box house, and never have to render anything other than the inside of your house as long as you're inside it. Likewise, if your neighbor used one, your system would never have to strain while loading their high-prim furniture. It is also possible to use strategically placed planes (.001 thick panels) that can be overlapped to achieve good occlusion (that is line of sight occlusion), like inside the walls of a maze. You wouldn't ever render much more than a hallway or two at a time, even if the maze was a sim in size and your draw distance was set to max. Invisiprims prove it can be done in SL, and it can be user friendly, but LL needs to give us these tools BEFORE we can reap the benefits of having them. |
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Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
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05-03-2008 10:26
When I first saw this my original thought was also of "great- another way to discriminate". I know some of you feel that what you put on - whether jewelry hair or furry avie is a choice and therefore not subject for discrimination but that is another debate. I too went through my pre-made outfits and labeled them and was amazed at the ARC in some.
Last night I was at a place where an avie had over 7k ARC- whether it was adding to lag is not easily determinable since there were only two other people there and no one was actually doing anything other than sitting. I am all for policing myself though, so I will look at the numbers when going somewhere I know usually lags anyway. _____________________
"Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. "
Robert A. Heinlein http://talonfaire.blogspot.com/ Visit Talon Faire Main: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Misto%20Presto/216/21/155- Main Store XStreets: http://tinyurl.com/6r7ayn |
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Torian Carter
Searching for a 3rd Life
Join date: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 111
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05-03-2008 11:49
This may seem like a good idea but I think the count is seriously flawed. The fact that the number changes while you are doing nothing makes me doubt the accuracy of the whole thing. How can one attachment that may be made of 100 prims be that same cost as a single prim attachment? And it's also a direct contradiction of the whole 'improving the look of SL' process that has been behind Windlight. Since there is no way to scale this depending on the end users video card it's kind of useless. A high end system can run way more rendering without any lag, so 20 avie's with and ARC of 5,000 may not even be an issue. For the low end system, this would be a different story.
Another problem is that this is a very useful griefer tool. Now they can configure bots to cause maximum lag in their surroundings! Will this be of any use to club and event organizers? I doubt it. If you tell people the cannot come in unless they reduce their ARC there are going to be a lot of people who just go away and never return. Clubs are 2 a penny in SL and anyone who tries to implement this will probably go out of business. Besides that, as LL keeps telling us, we should all be using quad core systems with SLI video cards. |
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Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
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05-03-2008 13:10
Could this feature be changed so that it only displays the viewer's avatar score? Why is it my business what anyone else's score is?
Since the score results are apparently flaky (2 8x8 textures score higher than 1 1024x1024) being able to see someone else's score becomes just another reason for people to be crappy to each other. This world IS full of petty, controlling, overly dramatic people, pocket despots, ruling their shoebox kingdoms with an iron fist. They decide that a score of 900 is acceptable, then they dial their score down to 800 and decide that 800 is better... and everyone else must adhere to their requirements, or get banned, ejected, fired, etc etc. You said that wouldn't happen with voice. It did. Scripts, animations, texture animations, sounds, prim types, flexi settings, particles, these are things that the ARC only barely considers, which dependent on your video card and processor, can have a MAJOR effect in terms of lag.. or more accurately, in terms of viewer FPS. there is very little LAG in SL. What there is a lot of, is poor viewer FPS. My housemate is willing to settle for 4fps. I'm not willing to settle for less than 10. It's cute that you can make this number.. I wish you could make it either accurate, or private... or prefferably, both. _____________________
 ● Inworld Store: http://slurl.eclectic-randomness.com ● Website: http://www.eclectic-randomness.com ● Twitter: @WinterVentura |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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05-03-2008 13:25
Another problem is that this is a very useful griefer tool. Now they can configure bots to cause maximum lag in their surroundings! I think that most griefers had already figured out the best ways to lag sims to a halt, before this ARC tool was added. |
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MoxZ Mokeev
Invisible Alpha Texture
Join date: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 870
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05-03-2008 13:33
Ok I've done my update and an interesting thing happened last night.
My partner has no idea about this. He doesn't read the blogs, and although I had mentioned to him that I had updated to the latest client, I didn't divulge the ARC. My avatar showed me at 470 or so...his was around 1200....which isn't much and veratively (sp?) a safe number. However, I was lagging in our home when we were both there. When we said our goodbyes for the night and he logged off, the lag died. I was zipping all over the house. Freaky indeed. I have 2 gigs DDR2 and an Intel chipset (which I plan to upgrade because he told me that I have a PCI slot to put more graphic oomph in). So is there maybe something to this? _____________________
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-03-2008 13:34
Another problem is that this is a very useful griefer tool. Now they can configure bots to cause maximum lag in their surroundings! Lagging the client likely wouldn't be terribly effective either, you can just look away (or if it's done with attachments, the RC has visual muting of specifc avatars), and it's not uniformly effective (someone's puter might burst up in flames, someone else might not even notice). Lagging the sim affects everyone on that sim and is usually far more frustrating for people than a low FPS and is likely easier to accomplish  . |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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05-03-2008 13:35
I really wouldn't like the idea of a resource quota which could not be exceeded. An absolute limit could have a debilitating effect on creativity. Throughout history, art has thrived despite the fact that artists have never had unlimited canvasses. In fact, making the best use of limited resources spurs a lot of creativity. It's a technological fact that Second Life has finite resources under which to operate. Advances in technology can increase those resources over time, but the fact remains that there is always an absolute limit to the resources available. Creativity should be encouraged, but it has to be balanced against resource efficiency. Web designers and game designers have been doing that successfully for a long time now. Without that balance, you get- well, the chaos that is Second Life right now. |
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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05-04-2008 06:18
Can't see a thread on this yet. Any comments? Small excerpt... "Consider this almost like a carbon footprint approach to the performance in SL. And no, in case you’re wondering- this isn’t an attempt to offload our big responsibility to make the viewer more efficient! ..." http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/05/01/who-me-yes-you-couldnt-be-then-who-introducing-avatar-rendering-cost/ I read it not exactly sure how to use it yet, must confess it confused me. Maybe I find some insight here if I read everything you guys wrote.. LOL Edit Um is this beta testing feature only right now? I have discovered or trying to learn lot of things if done properly could be done in low resolution textures like jewelery in undershirt layer and hair drawn well doesn't always need to be flexible or prim but it seems like very few designers do it... Yet I personally do find it incredibly annoying to be renting somewhere that is built by pros and have transparent plants going through walls. I don't like how certain flexible and attachments seem to behave personally but I can understand the Ladies wanting flexible hair and skirts but whenever I am building their hair drops my fps down by 5 to 10 points. _____________________
Look for my alt Dagon Xanith on Youtube.com
Newest video is Loneliness by Duo Zikr DX's Alts & SL Art Death of Avatar |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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05-04-2008 06:59
Throughout history, art has thrived despite the fact that artists have never had unlimited canvasses. In fact, making the best use of limited resources spurs a lot of creativity. It's a technological fact that Second Life has finite resources under which to operate. Advances in technology can increase those resources over time, but the fact remains that there is always an absolute limit to the resources available. Creativity should be encouraged, but it has to be balanced against resource efficiency. Web designers and game designers have been doing that successfully for a long time now. Without that balance, you get- well, the chaos that is Second Life right now. I agree with you. I've never lost the prim-conciousness that I learnt when learning to build on my 512m First land. It is natural for me to consider ARC of anything once the tools are there to measure it. However, the idea that someone could *never* be profligate is one that I'd be uncomfortable with. The situation that I had in mind in my previous post was that of someone doing a rapid one-off build as an art installation or a belly-laugh. I would hope that limits on excessive consumption could be driven by peer/community pressure. Yup! I'm an optimist My optimism might have some basis if the system actively advised people of the resource consumption of attachments and objects when they wore or rezzed them. Add: There's a misleading message in a limit. That message would be that everything is OK up to that limit - that people are "entitled" / "have a right" to take it right to the limit. _____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589 |