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LL Blog: Avatar Rendering Cost

Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
05-02-2008 11:09
From: Amity Slade
...Wearing underwear under clothes shouldn't affect avatar rendering cost, should it?...
Very true.... It don't.... I was just being cheeky.... In more ways than one. (^_^)y
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Amity Slade
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Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
05-02-2008 11:17
I found out about this feature actually (and promptly forgot about it until this thread) a few weeks ago when someone in-world asked me if I was lagging considerably, then explained the debug features with the colors and so-forth. At the time, I assumed it was a feature that had always been there, and I just didn't know about it.

What I discovered when using it was that I had freebie shoes with bling on them that were adding a ton of avatar rendering cost to me. I like the shoes well enough, but I wasn't necessarily wearing them because they were the best shoes I've ever seen- they were just free and looked good enough to wear.

That prompted me to go out and buy some shoes that might have less of that rendering cost. Of course, it's not necessarily easy to determine what products will fit the bill. But the person who pointed out the feature suggested that the bling was the culprit for the high cost, so I looked for shoes without bling.

That, I think, is a positive use of this debugging feature.

I didn't make the change just to be kind to everyone else's computer.

I made the change because:
(a) With my old computer (a year old now, it's ancient), it's in my best interests to optimize my rendering costs. Wherever I go, I'm there, and often I'm on my screen getting rendered for myself. Optimizing myself will always be helpful to me, even if no one else is optimizing themselves.
(b) I probably would not sacrifice my vanity solely to improve performance for other people. However, what the tool helped me discover was an _unnecessary_ resource hog. Making the shoe change wasn't really much of a sacrifice- my more-efficient replacement shoes look better than the old resource hogs. The ARC debugging isn't going to change residents' behavior by encouraging them to make their avatars look worse just for the sake of "community" optimization. But if it helps them identify _unnecessary_ resource hogs, then yes, a lot of people will make relatively painless changes for the sake of humanity.

The presence of the tool also helps merchants who want to advertise "resource efficient" on their products. The debugging tool gives consumers a way to test any such "resource efficient" claims.

I don't think content creators are going to create appearance-related products that are less visually appealing just to be more resource-efficient. But they may pay more attention to making the small, imperceptible changes to products that have huge resource-savings.

For example, many textures in Second Life are way larger than they need to be. Using appropriately-sized textures can make huge rendering-cost savings without changing how the textures actually look when rendered.

The blog post on the Avatar Rendering Cost tool really does a poor job at explaining the positive impact of the tool. However, any tool that helps residents figure out- without being technical experts- what slows down their performance is a benefit.

I just hope Linden Labs does not think that the development of the tool is the end of the process when it comes to fixing the poor performance of the grid. Hopefully, they start using this tool internally to help them figure out ways for them to fix grid problems too.
Amity Slade
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Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
05-02-2008 11:18
From: Imnotgoing Sideways
Very true.... It don't.... I was just being cheeky.... In more ways than one. (^_^)y


I thought that was the case. But I'm not very technically inclined, I had to be sure.
Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
05-02-2008 11:19
What would make the number fluctuate? I was checking my pre-made outfits that include skins, attachments, etc - I have from one at 489 to one over 3600. However I was noticing, the numbers fluctuated a few points as I watched.
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
05-02-2008 11:34
From: Amity Slade
For example, many textures in Second Life are way larger than they need to be. Using appropriately-sized textures can make huge rendering-cost savings without changing how the textures actually look when rendered.
It treats all texture sizes the same, only the number of unique textures counts. I gave an example where you can lower ARC by bloated texture usage.

If everyone understands best practices then it's fine as a guideline since you can reason it through, but what will likely happen is that people will assume it's the "de facto" standard to build against.

And I still think that in the future they'll clamp the viewer to an arbitrary ARC and render everyone above that as an imposter by default no matter the distance. It's too much of an optimization to resist.

From: Amaranthim Talon
What would make the number fluctuate? I was checking my pre-made outfits that include skins, attachments, etc - I have from one at 489 to one over 3600. However I was noticing, the numbers fluctuated a few points as I watched.
Some attachment might be too small to still be rendered from a distance away and they wouldn't be included as part of the ARC anymore, it's a guess though.
Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
05-02-2008 11:42
After reading some on this thread I broke down and downloaded the new RC client to see for myself. It's interesting to see what the cost of different things are. Depending on what shoes/boots and hair I wore I was averaging around 1600. Jumped down to ~400 with old hair and no jewelry, and after swapping my walk AO over to a blank prim. I managed to push it over 10k once, and in the process I think I found the single biggest culprit I own... a highly detailed necklace from Body Language that weighs 4936 by itself!
I think I'll offer the opposite service to Carls.. pay me to NOT show up :D
Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
05-02-2008 11:58
From: Dana Hickman
After reading some on this thread I broke down and downloaded the new RC client to see for myself. It's interesting to see what the cost of different things are. Depending on what shoes/boots and hair I wore I was averaging around 1600. Jumped down to ~400 with old hair and no jewelry, and after swapping my walk AO over to a blank prim. I managed to push it over 10k once, and in the process I think I found the single biggest culprit I own... a highly detailed necklace from Body Language that weighs 4936 by itself!
I think I'll offer the opposite service to Carls.. pay me to NOT show up :D

Cracking up over that last bit...

About the AO - I use your std sexy walk that came with some shoes eons ago and was copyable so I have added it to all my ready outfits - I just made a thought out outfit trying to minimize ARC to see how it would affect me - everything was humming at 440 tops til I wore the Sexy Walk - that put me at 1436 - can that be changed? TIA
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Kitty Barnett
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05-02-2008 12:03
From: Amaranthim Talon
About the AO
If it's a separate non-visible attachment that you wear and you don't want the hassle of taking out the poses and putting them in a HUD AO simply attach it to a hud attachment point, turn on transparent and drag it offscreen :).
Brann Georgia
Spits infinitives
Join date: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1,441
05-02-2008 12:05
From: Kitty Barnett

And I still think that in the future they'll clamp the viewer to an arbitrary ARC and render everyone above that as an imposter by default no matter the distance. It's too much of an optimization to resist.


Wow, maybe we can just forget about the whole 3D thing, too, and go back to the good old days of Donkey Kong.
What's the point of having a program capable of rendering graphics in this current fashion and then not allowing people to use those capabilities?

People should be able to turn on imposters, turn off bling, make offensive objects invisible IF THEY CHOOSE to do so, not because someone wants to level the playing field.
Part of SL's attraction is to look as realistic as this medium currently allows - I look forward to improvements and advances in this, not a giant leap backwards.

Why reduce the visual quality of the single most important aspect of this social environment: the people? I'd rather look at an avatar than a wall or a tree or a pretty water surface.

Maybe if people didn't feel the need to pad their events with campers, bots, dancers, hosts, and then have moving lights, things falling from the ceiling, smoke, and other nonsense they wouldn't have to worry about someone's hair slowing things down. Can't wait to see the club where everyone looks like a 2D paperdoll doing the Jammy Dodger.
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Darien Caldwell
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Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
05-02-2008 12:05
I agree it's a useful tool, but making it so you can see other people's scores makes it open to abuse. It should be limited to either your own score, or the score of people on your land. It needs to be tempered with some common sense and understanding of human nature.

I would like to see the same done for scripts, It's a constant headache as a sim owner to have to deal with people who have laggy attachments lagging down the sim, and you can't identify who it is. (and to be clear I am talking about an RP sim I am involved with.)

This too should only be on a 'need to know' basis, and not for any random person to harass people over.
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Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
05-02-2008 12:07
From: Dana Hickman
...pay me to NOT show up :D
I've been paid to leave before... It's an art. (^_^)y
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
05-02-2008 12:11
From: Brann Georgia
People should be able to turn on imposters, turn off bling, make offensive objects invisible IF THEY CHOOSE to do so, not because someone wants to level the playing field.
I didn't stay not being able to turn it off, eep! :p. & it's just a guess anyway :).

It just feels like something that would tie in with avatar imposters perfectly as an easy way for them to increase FPS which is what people are "shouting" about.

By default I meant in the same way that "avatar imposters" is checked by default and has to be unchecked, "render costly avatars as imposters" could be checked by default in the same way.
Darien Caldwell
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Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
05-02-2008 12:14
From: Kitty Barnett
I didn't stay not being able to turn it off, eep! :p. & it's just a guess anyway :).

It just feels like something that would tie in with avatar imposters perfectly as an easy way for them to increase FPS which is what people are "shouting" about.

By default I meant in the same way that "avatar imposters" is checked by default and has to be unchecked, "render costly avatars as imposters" could be checked by default in the same way.


you can turn anyone into a permanent Impostor by muting them. which is another bit of social engineering I dont like. But some seem to love that.
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Amaranthim Talon
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Join date: 14 Nov 2006
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05-02-2008 12:22
From: Kitty Barnett
If it's a separate non-visible attachment that you wear and you don't want the hassle of taking out the poses and putting them in a HUD AO simply attach it to a hud attachment point, turn on transparent and drag it offscreen :).

Sorry- don't mean to be dense but... if I drag the HUD off screen - where does it go exactly? And if the thing I am wearing is transparent or other wise invisible - why doest it have a Rendering Cost since it is not visible anyway?
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Johan Durant
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Join date: 7 Aug 2006
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05-02-2008 12:27
From: Gabriele Graves
Yes I was very disappointed to see that said by a Linden :(


Not sure why you found that comment disappointing. Personally I consider it a good thing to clue people in to these issues.


As for people thinking it is so horrible to ask people to remove attachments that hurt your experience (haven't read this entire thread but I noticed this sentiment a lot in the blog comments,) how is that different from, say, asking someone listening to loud music in public to turn it down?
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Kitty Barnett
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05-02-2008 13:04
From: Amaranthim Talon
Sorry- don't mean to be dense but... if I drag the HUD off screen - where does it go exactly?
It's good sense to ask about something you're unsure about, not dense :).

If you drag it off screen it's still there, it just doesn't get in the way of anything. If you ever need it back again just wear it on your avie again.

The best solution would really be to grab the anims out of the AO and put them into a HUD AO though, but attaching it to hud as-is should work fine too, it won't count against your ARC then.

From: someone
And if the thing I am wearing is transparent or other wise invisible - why doest it have a Rendering Cost since it is not visible anyway?
As for an explanation on why anything alpha is so costly, you're probably better off asking one of the gurus in the Texturing forum or hope one of them (*waves to Chosen :p*) jumps in :).

The viewer may or may not be rendering things that are invisible, but as far as ARC goes it doesn't matter if it's half transparent, or fully transparent it adds 4 per single face that is transparent/alpha.

The fact that you said it adds 1000 to your ARC confuses me though... that suggests it's made up of quite a few prims (20-40?) which seems very odd for an AO that's attached to your avie and not the screen so I'm wondering if I'm missing something? :confused:
Psyra Extraordinaire
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Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
05-02-2008 13:10
They will never oppress my 4800-scoring Phoenix avvie. :D

(Think that's bad? The one I made back in 2005 scored over 8000!) :)
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Macha Morigi
Miss Aligned
Join date: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 168
05-02-2008 13:12
658..not too bad! I love my flexi skirts / hair, but I stopped wearing them a while ago when I realised just how much lag they contribute to a sim.

I think this is a really useful tool, but without wanting to rain on anyone's parade, I just don't think most SL residents even consider how what they wear affects the speed of the SL experience. I remember seeing an SL mentor at OI recently, absolutely weighed down with hundreds and hundreds of prim attachments - teddies, guns, huge backpack... kind of a Tank Girl look, very cool; but very ill-advised in such a crowded area.

And - she was complaining about the lag - bitterly!

I IM'd her, politely, to explain about the "lotsa prims causes lag" thing... her response? "No they don't."

And this is a mentor!

Sorry LL, but this tool will only be used by a tiny, clued-up-and-conscientious minority of residents, who are aware of and care about how they impact on the world around them.
The rest of SL will carry on blinging and swinging their flexis in the wind (so to speak!), completely unaware of the issue.

/me leaves to attach her wristwatch...yikes... 788..
Darien Caldwell
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05-02-2008 13:12
From: Psyra Extraordinaire
They will never oppress my 4800-scoring Phoenix avvie. :D

(Think that's bad? The one I made back in 2005 scored over 8000!) :)


If it's anything like your forum avatar, I can imagine :)
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Maklin Deckard
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Join date: 9 Apr 2005
Posts: 459
05-02-2008 13:24
From: Desmond Shang
Okay, when I finally get around to doing that pulsating, spinning, thumping neon pixel-supernova city called Respublica Blingtardia, ONLY those with 'red' scores will be allowed in the region!!!

I'll only relent if you are a well known scammer, griefer or adfarmer notorious for using a noob avatar...


As someone who's BASE avatar (worn for almost 2 years, btw), minus clothing, runs 1K (nice and yellow numbered for easy discrimination), not funny Desmond. Not in the least. Might try a bit of understanding that if this gets pushed, some of us cease to be what we have been, rather than going for cheap laughs.
Maklin Deckard
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Posts: 459
05-02-2008 13:29
From: Johan Durant
Not sure why you found that comment disappointing. Personally I consider it a good thing to clue people in to these issues.


As for people thinking it is so horrible to ask people to remove attachments that hurt your experience (haven't read this entire thread but I noticed this sentiment a lot in the blog comments,) how is that different from, say, asking someone listening to loud music in public to turn it down?


Because, and to use your RL analogy, unless there is a law about loud music in public and YOU are an officer of the law, you got no right to ask them or to expect them to comply if you do. Same here, long as the attachment isn't against TOS, and you're not a LINDEN, you've got no right to ask them and should not expect compliance.

Of course, if you OWN the land, feel free to wave your e-p**n and ban them...you do have that right.
Nic Writer
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Join date: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 740
05-02-2008 14:16
From: Kitty Barnett
If it's a separate non-visible attachment that you wear and you don't want the hassle of taking out the poses and putting them in a HUD AO simply attach it to a hud attachment point, turn on transparent and drag it offscreen :).


Ohmigosh! Kitty, I never knew you could do that - but I just tried it with the ARC-heavy no-modify transparent walk attachment. I'm walking my walk and the ARC counter didn't even stutter! Brilliant!

Thank you so much!
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Viktoria Dovgal
Join date: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 3,593
05-02-2008 14:21
From: Kitty Barnett
The fact that you said it adds 1000 to your ARC confuses me though... that suggests it's made up of quite a few prims (20-40?) which seems very odd for an AO that's attached to your avie and not the screen so I'm wondering if I'm missing something? :confused:

You're not missing anything! While the AO scripts inside are fine (almost all the other AOs out there are based on it), the attachment is a 20 prim box that looks like an MP3 player. It has a decorative animated bar graph and each bar is a separate prim. The whole thing is 4 x 6 cm so all that activity usually goes unseen. It really is a nicely made little box, just not the kind of thing that thousands of avatars should probably be wearing =)
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Kalderi Tomsen
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Join date: 10 May 2007
Posts: 888
05-02-2008 14:27
Personally I think it's a great tool that allows residents to be "socially responsible" if they choose to. I have started labelling my outfits so I know the "cost" - when I go to a function where dress code isn't set, I will try to find something that won't lag the sim too much.

The cries of "discrimination" have no merit, in my opinion. I discriminate every day between food I do like and food I don't like. I discriminate between people I choose to spend my time with and people I do not. There's nothing wrong, inherently, with discrimination.

Now, if I go to a live performance I am there to see the performance. I do NOT want it ruined by some lagtard doing the SL equivalent of "Look at me! Look at MEEEEE!". Therefore I think it is perfectly reasonable to stipulate that only people below a certain rating should attend, and if LL automate that, then I have no problem.

And if you are the type that insists on wearing items that generate mud-like lag in social sims, well, I'm guessing that you adding that place to a "never go again" list would be just fine by the owners.

As I see it, lagging yourself up is SELFISH, pure and simple, because it ruins the experience for other people. Now we have something that allows us to find out who is messing up things for everyone else, and politely asking them to do something about it. better, it allows you to do something YOURSELF.

I'm not suggesting that we all become the lag police (although I'm sure some idiots will!), but as far as I am concerned this gives us tools to help ourselves and others.

Also, to be fair, most avies aren't going to create a problem, even the non-human ones.

This just helps us make informed choices, that's all.
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Trout Recreant
Public Enemy No. 1
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 4,873
05-02-2008 14:28
From: Desmond Shang
...

I'll only relent if you are a well known scammer, griefer or adfarmer notorious for using a noob avatar...


I'm so sick of the famous getting special treatment.

Hey - wait a minute - this might be the answer to our problems. Base the new traffic formula on the combined score of all of the avatars to visit the property in a 24 hour period divided by the number of avatars. You get the average number, which will be higher for live, active avatars who buy stuff to wear. Traffic bots have an extremely low score, usually. Bot runners will have to take their bots shopping and bling them up, which will F up sim performance if they try to have a huge bot farm. HAH!

Taaaa Daaaaa! Problem solved. (well, maybe not)
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