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The Discussions on Traffic Reform with the Lindens

Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
05-01-2008 23:56
From: Argos Hawks
Are you suggesting that LL hire people to sit at every location with a bunch of stopwatches to calculate the traffic number? If it can't be programmed, it doesn't really matter.

They're standing on a camppad, they're a camper :P
Now picking bots and AFKampers, well is a bit different.
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Argos Hawks
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05-02-2008 00:20
From: Tegg Bode
They're standing on a camppad, they're a camper :P
Now picking bots and AFKampers, well is a bit different.

Not all camping systems involve standing on a pad, or any other kind of standing/sitting pose object. Some will even allow the avatar to wander anywhere in the sim.
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Phil Deakins
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Join date: 17 Jan 2007
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05-02-2008 04:39
From: Ann Otoole
ok so apply the same filter used for eliminating profile pick abuse. make it so alts/bots/whatever, is not counted towards traffic. they already filter them out of the search index so they can filter them out of traffic. problem solved.
What filter is that? If you mean not counting duplicates, then it doesn't work like that.
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Lias Leandros
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Join date: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 3,458
05-02-2008 07:27
From: Argos Hawks
Are you suggesting that LL hire people to sit at every location with a bunch of stopwatches to calculate the traffic number? If it can't be programmed, it doesn't really matter.
Did LL hire people to find all the casino equipment, banks, adfarm exploitersor child sex Rpers? No, of course not. They expected (since this is the adult grid) for people to follow any new rules and for the residents to report any wrong doing.
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Lear Cale
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Join date: 22 Aug 2007
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05-02-2008 08:38
From: Lias Leandros
Did LL hire people to find all the casino equipment, banks, adfarm exploitersor child sex Rpers? No, of course not. They expected (since this is the adult grid) for people to follow any new rules and for the residents to report any wrong doing.


That's not the point. The point is, what do they do AFTER people report it?

They have to task actual *people* to go check it out and take action. Now, their incentive for doing this (or at least, appearing to do this) for gaming and child porn is very high. If they get labeled as a gaming site, credit card companies won't work with them, and they lose BIG TIME. If they get cited for hosting child porn by the German government, the ramifications could be even worse.

What's the downside to LL if there's camping going on? Well, it annoys residents, who complain, and some go elsewhere for their entertainment. It would be very difficult for them to even assess the risk/benefit here. Clearly, they're not motivated to put a lot of manpower on this kind of issue. They have demonstrated this time after time, and we'd be fools to think they'd change their minds on it without demonstrating truly significant impacts for them (and other than some kind of boycott where nobody logs in for days on end, I don't know how we could. Good luck with that!)

On the other hand, if we can convince them to do a very simple thing, eliminating traffic stats for rankings in searches, then once they've spent a relatively small amount of manpower on that, it's all over but the shouting. (And there will be shouting, so I don't blame them for hesitating.)

See the difference? Significant manpower costs to LL versus tiny ones. I don't think there's much point trying to push a solution that involves significant manpower costs to LL. It's a waste of time.

Not to mention that, like gambling, there is a big gray area, and there would be serious issues about the definition of camping. As the judge said about pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!"
Chip Midnight
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Posts: 10,231
05-02-2008 08:46
From: Lear Cale
See the difference? Significant manpower costs to LL versus tiny ones. I don't think there's much point trying to push a solution that involves significant manpower costs to LL. It's a waste of time.


I think you're wrong there. You underestimate the deterrant effect of plainly visible enforcement. By leaving everything up to residents to report and thus making enforcement completely invisible to the SL populace it creates an atmosphere where people don't fear bending and breaking the rules. One of my neighbors in RL is a police officer (who doesn't seem to work much) so there's almost always a patrol car parked in the parking lot in front of my house. If someone's going to break into a house do you think they're going to try the one with the cop car in front of it or go a few streets down where there's no visible reminder of law enforcement? If LL was serious about enforcing their rules they'd only need a small but visible force of beat cops who might show up anywhere at any moment. I bet it would actually save them money in the long run over the current system.
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3Ring Binder
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Join date: 8 Mar 2007
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05-02-2008 09:12
there are FREE anti-bot scripts on SLX that can be put in the camping devices. if everyone used them, the bots would diminish, obvisouly. it wouldn't stop camping as a whole, but it'd eliminate the ease of running bots until a proper solution can be implemented.
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
05-02-2008 09:49
I agree with both Chip and Lear, if that's possible, LOL. A team of Linden beat cops would help with policing all problems, from pornographic ageplay to ad farms to traffic bots; the mere presence of the team would help dissuade some of the people considering malpractice. Hey, who knows, being a Linden Beat Cop for 3 months should become a new-hire requisite.

On the other hand, eliminating traffic altogether, as Lear suggested, WOULD be the cheapest, fastest, and most reliable way of degaming Places Tab, and would require basically no Linden intervention, because people would just stop running traffic bots by default.
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
05-02-2008 09:59
From: Oryx Tempel
I agree with both Chip and Lear, if that's possible, LOL. A team of Linden beat cops would help with policing all problems, from pornographic ageplay to ad farms to traffic bots; the mere presence of the team would help dissuade some of the people considering malpractice. Hey, who knows, being a Linden Beat Cop for 3 months should become a new-hire requisite.

On the other hand, eliminating traffic altogether, as Lear suggested, WOULD be the cheapest, fastest, and most reliable way of degaming Places Tab, and would require basically no Linden intervention, because people would just stop running traffic bots by default.


I pretty much feel the same way.

I agree that if Linden put 'Beat Cops' in force, the fear of getting caught will encourage a lot of folks to abide by the rules that ordinarily wouldn't.

However, I have zero confidence that this is a solution Linden would realisticaly stick with for the long haul. I question whether they'd even agree to this, due to the time & money involved in tagging new resources.... but even if they did agree, more than likely these resources would get repurposed in time, and we'd be back to square one in short order.

I think we've got a window of opportunity here to make some real change. If whatever solution Linden rolls out fails, I wouldn't plan on Linden revisiting this for another couple years. That's why I tend to prefer a solution that's simplest, and has the highest probability of success the first time.
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Kagehi Kohn
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05-02-2008 12:53
You know.. No one has suggested it, but "one" alternate would be to contract someone in SL, kind of like the people doing the SLCN.TV people, to set up the new categories, then do "reviews" of places. Have those ratings be what determines the areas ranking, from those reviews. If its primarily a shopping area, it gets in the shopping category. If its primarily shopping, but for adults, or furry, or what ever, then it gets placed in *that* as well, so you can narrow things farther, not some other category. Mixed categories would be allowed, not by picking, "Mature", or some other useless set, but by check marking the categories you want to find, so if its adult+furry+animation, for example, you "get" the ones that the reviewers have "put" in **each** of those groups together, not just in one of them, or a huge list of everything in all three.

Leave the existing system there, for people that just want to find the areas with high traffic (since popularity is likely to shift as reviews change traffic). Being able to check for, "Eight star places, which cater to scifi, and sell things", would solve the problem far more effectively than trying to remove the ratings. And the existing search system... well, without some sort of rating, and objective ones would be nice, not statistical, its nearly useless. You can't find stuff based on the "best" of any category, since the categories are bloody limited, and you can only really pick "all" or "one", and you won't find anything, if you don't know the damn keyword.

Oh, and the reviewers could even, in theory, add a weighting value to areas, which would effect the "popularity" stats, like, "This zone has camping, and 10 places to do so.", or, "This area has camping and lets you do so while walking." Let people click a single option to add the weighting, so that the "most popular" list gets shifted so that the camping spots get "less" of a rank, but some percentage, in that case. If they don't like it, decrease the number of camping places and increase the useful stuff in them. You will get a lot of whining, but not as much as if you eliminated it entirely, instead of adding a, "[] Camping adjusted.", button to "both" of the existing lists. But, again, it only works if we have some group whose job is to check on, review, and determine who big a camping area a place "is", so it can be adjusted down when the option is turned on.
Phil Deakins
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Join date: 17 Jan 2007
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05-02-2008 13:10
That last one couldn't work because places change, and it would be out of date in no time. The people, presumably volunteers because LL isn't going to pay the number of people it would require, simply couldn't keep pace with the amount of work/time that it would involve. There would be so much work/time required that they wouldn't *want* to keep pace with it.

Also, it amounts to a human edited directory, which at the best of times are prone to personal bias, and SL volunteers would be *very* prone to personal bias.
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Cheyenne Marquez
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05-02-2008 13:19
For crissakes stop it with the back and forth petty mumbo jumbo and just get rid of the worthless traffic metrics. LL has been talking of getting rid of this for the longest time and here we are several years later and nothing has been done about it.

It has gotten to the point that we now simply stand frozen in place as to what to do about it because a certain few have developed a dependence on it even though we all know it is an unfairly flawed system that has been woefully gamed for years now.

There is nothing like this in rl and business find other creative and legitimate means that are by far much more fair and equitable to the entire business sector as a whole.

To those business owners who find it useful as a means to gauge their daily traffic, all that has to be done is keep it under the the "about land" menu where it this information can be accessed for personal use but remove it from the search tabs.

Do the right thing and just get rid of it already! It is worthless and only beneficial to a very few who will soon get over it.

This is not rocket science people.
Kagehi Kohn
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05-02-2008 13:31
From: Phil Deakins
That last one couldn't work because places change, and it would be out of date in no time. The people, presumably volunteers because LL isn't going to pay the number of people it would require, simply couldn't keep pace with the amount of work/time that it would involve. There would be so much work/time required that they wouldn't *want* to keep pace with it.

Also, it amounts to a human edited directory, which at the best of times are prone to personal bias, and SL volunteers would be *very* prone to personal bias.


Its probably just about close to the only thing that "would" work though. And yes, places change. Shops do a lot, but we are not talking about how many people sell pants vs. shirts here. Other places.. Also change, but, maybe the "right sort" of bias would be OK. If the bias is for areas that offer good content, and not just endless shops, then a) those places are fewer in number, b) easier to recheck more often, and c) not as likely to change instantly. Some places may be incomplete, and marked as such, so that they don't get "officially" reviewed until they are complete enough to be worth it.

Besides, your complaint is like suggesting that we shouldn't have restaurant critics in large cities, because there are too many of them, lot of them are opening and closing all the time, and some of them might change the wall paper. There is no **perfect** solution for this. As for Linden not paying them, maybe not, or maybe they would provide some perks, since improving the ability of people to find things in world, and thus increasing the odds people will stay, instead of dropping in to look around, then getting fed up with bugs, the inability to find things, etc., and leaving, is bound to help Linden Labs more than keeping things as they stand. Or so I would presume...

As it is now, its not even possible to figure out how many fracking places there are, how many are basically relists of different sections of the same places, or anything else useful. And, if there are some that are biased, the "team" doing the reviews should send the people with right bias to the right area. Someone that "likes" combat is obviously going to be better at reviewing those areas than someone that likes shoes. Mind you, Linden already "sort of" does this, with their "showcase" on their site, but since nothing in the showcase is listed in any meaningful way "in-world", its useless to anyone that doesn't visit the main site, and just comes direct into the sims. Even having "that" as an additional filter category would help a lot.
Phil Deakins
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05-02-2008 14:39
From: Kagehi Kohn
Its probably just about close to the only thing that "would" work though. And yes, places change. Shops do a lot, but we are not talking about how many people sell pants vs. shirts here. Other places.. Also change, but, maybe the "right sort" of bias would be OK. If the bias is for areas that offer good content, and not just endless shops, then a) those places are fewer in number, b) easier to recheck more often, and c) not as likely to change instantly. Some places may be incomplete, and marked as such, so that they don't get "officially" reviewed until they are complete enough to be worth it.

Besides, your complaint is like suggesting that we shouldn't have restaurant critics in large cities, because there are too many of them, lot of them are opening and closing all the time, and some of them might change the wall paper. There is no **perfect** solution for this. As for Linden not paying them, maybe not, or maybe they would provide some perks, since improving the ability of people to find things in world, and thus increasing the odds people will stay, instead of dropping in to look around, then getting fed up with bugs, the inability to find things, etc., and leaving, is bound to help Linden Labs more than keeping things as they stand. Or so I would presume...

As it is now, its not even possible to figure out how many fracking places there are, how many are basically relists of different sections of the same places, or anything else useful. And, if there are some that are biased, the "team" doing the reviews should send the people with right bias to the right area. Someone that "likes" combat is obviously going to be better at reviewing those areas than someone that likes shoes. Mind you, Linden already "sort of" does this, with their "showcase" on their site, but since nothing in the showcase is listed in any meaningful way "in-world", its useless to anyone that doesn't visit the main site, and just comes direct into the sims. Even having "that" as an additional filter category would help a lot.
The restaurant critics do a good job, but imagine SL users reviewing places in SL lol. There are so many personal biases here that it's a total non-starter. Imagine a reviewer arriving in a place where there are campers, and the reviewer has heard things about campers, and perhaps even has an attitude about them so, regardless of the quality of the products, the place gets a bad review because "we don't want places that use campers doing well".

There is only one suitable thing to do - get rid of the Places tab. That solves everything.
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Lias Leandros
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Join date: 20 Jul 2005
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05-02-2008 16:10
From: Phil Deakins
Imagine a reviewer arriving in a place where there are campers, and the reviewer has heard things about campers, and perhaps even has an attitude about them so, regardless of the quality of the products, the place gets a bad review because "we don't want places that use campers doing well".

There is only one suitable thing to do - get rid of the Places tab. That solves everything.

Why would Linden Lab continue to endorse traffic gaming with bits and campers? And should we buckle under again and get rid of the Places tab the same way we got rid of the First Land program when it was gamed also?
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Kagehi Kohn
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05-02-2008 17:26
From: Phil Deakins
The restaurant critics do a good job, but imagine SL users reviewing places in SL lol. There are so many personal biases here that it's a total non-starter. Imagine a reviewer arriving in a place where there are campers, and the reviewer has heard things about campers, and perhaps even has an attitude about them so, regardless of the quality of the products, the place gets a bad review because "we don't want places that use campers doing well".

There is only one suitable thing to do - get rid of the Places tab. That solves everything.


Oh yeah, sure.. Then no one can find "anything". And, just to be clear, journalists have rules, so would reviewers working for a group doing it officially. The simplest method is to have the owner get easy access to the data on the review, like in their land tab, so if there *is* a problem, they can a) ask for a different reviewer to redo it, b) bring up the bias with LL, and/or c) tell the reviewers that they have made major changes, and invite them back to take another look. There is, obviously, a fair amount of overlap, so I think its fair to say that some place like Dragon Temple, which is pretty neat "should" get a higher listing, despite some camp points, than one like Urban City, which has damn near nothing "but" shops, camping spots and some cheesy stuff that does nothing to enhance the basically brick boxes motif, with no effort having been put into even "trying" to make something interesting.

You are attacking issues that, while real, are *potential* problems, while basically not presenting any useful alternative to the existing problems imho. Torpedoing every suggestion as, "Well, that won't work because <insert list of problems>", doesn't help anything.
Oryx Tempel
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05-02-2008 17:31
From: Phil Deakins
The restaurant critics do a good job, but imagine SL users reviewing places in SL lol. There are so many personal biases here that it's a total non-starter. Imagine a reviewer arriving in a place where there are campers, and the reviewer has heard things about campers, and perhaps even has an attitude about them so, regardless of the quality of the products, the place gets a bad review because "we don't want places that use campers doing well".

Just to play devil's advocate here, Phil, one of the most reliable and trusted restaurant and hotel raters is Zagat, which relies nearly exclusively on general public input. I think what Kagehi is suggesting might be something like this. If LL had linked all alts/bots to individual USER accounts, like WoW does, the SL Zagat would actually carry weight, as it could limit input by user, not account.
Phil Deakins
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05-02-2008 17:48
From: Lias Leandros
Why would Linden Lab continue to endorse traffic gaming with bits and campers? And should we buckle under again and get rid of the Places tab the same way we got rid of the First Land program when it was gamed also?
LL shouldn't endorse traffic gaming - they should remove the Places tab. It is surplus to requirements, after all.
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Phil Deakins
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05-02-2008 17:52
From: Kagehi Kohn
You are attacking issues that, while real, are *potential* problems, while basically not presenting any useful alternative to the existing problems imho. Torpedoing every suggestion as, "Well, that won't work because <insert list of problems>", doesn't help anything.
No I'm not. I did say that banning the use of bots would work to a great extent. The others won't though, imo, which is why I talk against them - especially as there is no need for them.
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Phil Deakins
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05-02-2008 17:53
From: Oryx Tempel
Just to play devil's advocate here, Phil, one of the most reliable and trusted restaurant and hotel raters is Zagat, which relies nearly exclusively on general public input. I think what Kagehi is suggesting might be something like this. If LL had linked all alts/bots to individual USER accounts, like WoW does, the SL Zagat would actually carry weight, as it could limit input by user, not account.
Yes but you know as well as I do that there is such a lot of bias amongst the people in SL, that user reviews are bound to be often biased - even personal bias.
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Lear Cale
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Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
05-02-2008 18:53
From: Chip Midnight
I think you're wrong there. You underestimate the deterrant effect of plainly visible enforcement. By leaving everything up to residents to report and thus making enforcement completely invisible to the SL populace it creates an atmosphere where people don't fear bending and breaking the rules. One of my neighbors in RL is a police officer (who doesn't seem to work much) so there's almost always a patrol car parked in the parking lot in front of my house. If someone's going to break into a house do you think they're going to try the one with the cop car in front of it or go a few streets down where there's no visible reminder of law enforcement? If LL was serious about enforcing their rules they'd only need a small but visible force of beat cops who might show up anywhere at any moment. I bet it would actually save them money in the long run over the current system.


Good point, the "broken windows" phenomenon: when little infractions aren't policed, bigger crimes go on the rise. Maybe there's a way to put that into practice here.

But I don't think you contradicted my point; without a clear risk/benefit reward to LL, they're not going to invest in policing as would be required to make any plainly visible deterrent.
3Ring Binder
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05-02-2008 18:54
i just want to say this on the whole matter:

as long as real money is at stake, people will find a way to game the system. it's alread happening with profile picks, and the only reason that is more acceptable is because it doesn't actually put a drain on the physical engine.

if traffic is eliminated, or altered in such a way that the number of visitors is no longer calculated as popular, the NEW way to define popularity will become the new target of gaming, and people will find ways to make money off of it.

it may or may not be worse than the current system. but i guarantee that it will be 'something', and it go on for years before 'fixed' as just as camping has.
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Susie Boffin
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Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
05-02-2008 20:51
I wiil repeat for the one billionth time why not just eliminate traffic stats completely? What use are they to anyone except for the new residents who might click the most popular places tab in the mistaken belief that they represent quality. Just junk the entire mess immediately if not sooner!

It really has become a system that means nothing to nobody except to the ones who are botting their places to death in the hope that they can earn some free cash without producing anything of value.

I will challenge those of you who wish to reform the current system, instead of junking the entire mess, to show me why traffic is a valuable tool to us plain everyday users. My policy is to always go to the place with the least traffic in the hope that they don't use bots and might even have some nice goods for sale.
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Macphisto Angelus
JAFO
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Posts: 5,831
05-02-2008 20:56
Susie,

I don't have a stake in traffic being around or gone. There are others besides bot encouraging sim owners that want to keep it though.
The next two links I give you are long reads but if you would like to hear from another side of the issue to be informed they are there. I don't say I agree with all views in the links, but it is indeed another take then your's.

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/04/trafficking-in.html

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/05/traffic-jam.html
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
05-02-2008 21:10
From: Macphisto Angelus
Susie,

I don't have a stake in traffic being around or gone. There are others besides bot encouraging sim owners that want to keep it though.
The next two links I give you are long reads but if you would like to hear from another side of the issue to be informed they are there. I don't say I agree with all views in the links, but it is indeed another take then your's.

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/04/trafficking-in.html

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/05/traffic-jam.html


Those links don't seem to work for me so, without reading them, I must say that I am not criitisizing non bot users of SL who are trying to advertize their products in the best way possible. What I am saying is that they are facing an impossible task by trying to be honest in the face of the ones who are gaming the system. It is very clear to me that this system serves no useful purpose any longer and needs to be junked with no replacement.

Linden Lab is our government, so to speak, but I have never heard of a government in charge of advertizing. If they would just do away with the entire thing, and let the citizens figure it out on their own, we would have a happier world.

If residents want a search that means anything then let Linden Lab figure out how to that without using fake traffic numbers. That is why they are paid the big bucks.
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