The Discussions on Traffic Reform with the Lindens

Great post, Des.... I agree with just about everything you said, except my part lol

"We just need to be vigorous and punish exploiters". I take it when you say "We", you mean Linden.

In a perfect world, I think that's completely workable. But in the time we've both been here, Linden has kept an extremely poor track record with being "Vigorous". Sure, we might be able to get them to agree to the TOS update, and commit to stepping up enforcement & all that. But *realistically* speaking - and based upon your own previous experience... do you really think they'd stay with it for more than 90 days?

Not sure if you were around for this or not, but we had similar conversations with Linden over policing the Event Calendar. Jesse Linden even told us at one point to file abuse reports when people abused it, and they would follow up appropriately. They even told us that adding an "Event Abuse" button in the viewer was being worked on. (See thread here: /110/55/78436/3.html#post839883).

Unfortunately, Linden only stuck with this idea for about 30 days... then their involvement trailed off, and enforcement of Event Abuse became once again non-existant.

I'm ordinarily a pretty positive guy, especially when it comes to Linden - but I just can't see how Linden would *realistically* be committed to enforcement - no matter how important it may be to us I'm not saying its a bad suggestion.... just one that I think has a low probability of success based upon Linden's skeleton crew, and their short attention span.

QFT. I would love to see camping banned, but I think if LL were to make it against the TOS, it would just move underground, with people using bots decked out nicely, looking for all intents and purposes like actual people. Does anyone remember this thread?

/327/b6/231809/1.html

Scripted bots chatting away, or real people? there were serious doubts which were never answered.

That's the problem. Asking people to file abuse reports is still a hands off approach. They need to actively police the system, not just sit back waiting for residents to do it for them. Random residents who *might* file an AR isn't a deterrant. Visible policing would be. Adding a new rule and then leaving it up to residents to report it before anything proactive is done is a dodge.

That encapsulates the whole problem with the current SL Search system.

The problem is not that it is "gamed."

The problem is that it is not designed to give the Searcher the relevant results for which the Searcher seeks.

Every proposal I see to change the Search system is so focused on preventing "gaming," that it ignores the Searcher.

Traffic may be relevant to the Searcher, it may not be relevant. Then make it an _option_ to searching. Paid accounts may be more relevant to the searcher when it comes to traffic, paid accounts may not be more relevant. Make it an _option_.

If Search had more features to it, more ways for the Searcher to refine the Search, more ways for the Searcher to decide how to rank results, then Search becomes useful to the Searcher.

Search will still be "gamed;" however, with a more robust Search system, "gaming" the system becomes the same thing as providing Searchers with relevant results. And in that case, "gaming" Search becomes a good thing.

Wow. I cannot revile camping like some of you do.

When I started out, I camped at 2/5 min at clubs and it paid my portion of the rent... bought some things on occasion... and I made some good friends that lived in Europe. We were actually social. Helped each other out, went shopping, talked about the club we wanted to build... I also scavenged money trees like crazy, and sploders made life more fun. I felt like buying L was "cheating" in a way. I worked very hard in SL to make an SL living. It did make the experience more satisfying in a way.

Now, that experience has been tainted by bots. But with the advent of smarter camping devices that look for humans, that experience can still be had. I don't see camping as a terrible evil because when I camped I often shopped. I would look around and see what things I liked. Camping places tended to merely be an offset, but many places got more money out of me than I took from them. Some places got thousands more than I ever took.

I'm way beyond that now, and camping has also gotten far less lucrative. 1/10 min is the norm, I think. Starting now, it would really not be worth it to me. But some people do it and still have the kind of experience I had. I can't begrudge them that.

Camping isn't the only reason for grid instability, sure.

That doesn't mean we have to put up with it.


Look, I know how much they make off just my piddly corner of the grid. Enforcement is entirely possible.

Throw some guy at it part time for 8 bucks an hour. Come on.

There is *no* reason we have to be apologists for the Company falling down on policy enforcement now, just because of the failures of the past.

Enforcement is what's needed. I do it on my estate, they can do it in the areas they control.

You should be at Jack's office hour right now, we're having this discussion!

As a marketing wizard I'm sure you know that people who say they don't have money in SL don't really mean that. What they mean is that they just don't want L$ enough, yet, to spend real money on it.

And one of the reasons for that is what I've mentioned - there's no growth. If they buy a certain number of L$ today, then eventually they will be used up, and they'll have to go to the credit card again. They'll have some new objects to play with, but in terms of "freedom" to do things in the world as a whole, they'll be back to where they started. Even if they pay monthly, as they would for most other virtual worlds, the "enhanced experience" they have for their money doesn't last the month; if it's a skin that they want to buy, it could last less than 5 minutes.

Now, yes, I know all the reasons why it has to be this way - but I'm an oldbie, and I'm an oldbie who remembers the earlier times when the economy appeared more open. (I don't know if it actually _was_, and I don't know that it isn't now - I'm only talking about the appearance, which is what inexperienced new people will be judging by.)

Camping, sort of, provides some growth. It provides the idea that "if you stay in SL, you can camp, and work your way up to things". Now yes, there are many better ways of earning money, but they don't scale anywhere near as well. It's the same as gambling used to provide, and it's been observable that the gambling ban caused a significant shrinkage of the economy - it may have grown again now, but at the same time several previously-"banned gambling" games have been permitted again, so it's not clear that there wasn't just a repurposing there.

Like when I dipped my toes into Entropia, I went sweat hunting, I didn't want to buy peds there as I wasn't sure if I'd stay ...and I didn't stay but I still have an account there, but the point is it is a means to an end eventually.

Ack! There for 10 minutes and crashed twice..

Sadly I'm having my own office hour - I'm running a small corporation in the background in my RL Consider it a hobby and a distraction I guess... grin


Yumi, I hear your point... but if you offer discount discount discount... you get the discount crowd. Some businesses need to do that. For others, it's disastrous.

With opensource worlds coming available... if you trust my business acumen at all, driving the grid down to the lowest common denominator is assured suicide. This grid needs to offer premium quality and services, or it's a used-server-sale on Dovebid just waiting to happen.

Let the open source worlds take care of the campers. I want quality uptime, a search that works, and no freeloaders.


There's a lot of class to it, too. I've got computing resources enough here to put 100 campers all over the grid 24/7, open dozens of freebie-reselling business-in-a-boxes and beg-spam everyone in the name2key databases out there. I'm not alone - I bet a lot of people here could too. It goes without saying that I never would, that we never would.

Why can't we expect the same sort of grownup, civil behaviour from others, especially when these behaviours harm our world?

and Im a camper.

Recently, i had gathered enough lindens to actually make some purchases of things that i had been eyeing for a month or more.

I have an inventory clogged with freebies, stuff Ive grabbed as Ive been exploring, stuff Ive been directed to from the groups I belong to, and stuff Ive found using SLX.

In the past couple of days Ive probably spent 2500Ls of camping earned money. My primary camping spot has at least 30 bots - all ruthed up and hidden away - and abut 10 or so poseballs for camping.

There is a huge store complex there - and an adult themed club. None of the lindens Ive earned has purchased anything from there - yet...

My purchases were made in shops on sims that were virtually empty.

I pay enough money in monthly fees for a game with structure and goals - I cannot see spending US$ to buy things in a world that is just for fun. If the only way I choose to make any in world currency is removed, I'll move on too. My views may change, but it will certainly take more than 30 days to find out.

I realize that alot of you 'work' in SL - I hope that you get some greater benefit for all the headaches you have to put up with.

Discounts and pricing aren't the issue.. the issue is the overall experience. No matter how beautiful the artwork on SL becomes - and there are some remarkable things out there already, I know - as long as the overall experience is "pay in US$, spend it on the same things everyone else has, then wear them to the club, or build an environment to chat", that structure will limit the total amount of US$ people are prepared to spend.

Camping is a small gap in that structure. It means that when you log into SL tonight, you'll be able to do something new that you didn't do last night, without having to reach for your wallet or purse again.

Yes. But they don't need to yet, and they seem unprepared for the prospect of having to do it. They are definitely still in "increase userbase" mode. Oh, there are a few moves towards perhaps making the mainland a bit nicer, and occasional governance points such as the adfarming legislation, which we all like of course, but it seems like a sideline, something to do with your idle hours at the Lab.

I did say it some time ago, that regardless of when LL open-sourced their servers (and lord knows when _that_ will happen) an open client would mean that there would be reverse-engineering, and LL would have to offer premium service in order to compete, be the top virtual world provider using the SL protocol on account of quality of inworld experience, which means both governance and the skills of their developers keeping their server versions and reliability better than anyone else's.


~*~

Think about this though: the possibility exists that, actually, the main grid might be the best that we will ever have on the SL platform. People running opensim grids at the moment are small-scale enthusiasts; will there ever be a reliable company with the employees required to run a massive server farm, as well as have governance protocols, that actually uses the SL protocol? Would they not just think "well, since we're going to all this effort, why not just make our own damn system rather than reverse-engineering someone else's"?

I said recently that the opensim grids will be a stepping-stone rather than a final alternative, because I really can't see that they will be serious competitors as such, not while people are constantly struggling to replicate SL server code (which is in itself constantly changes). It is I'm sure an entertaining hobby, but at this rate there will only be real competition when people say "right - we are stopping this now - we're going to develop our _own_ server code, using this as a starting point maybe but not tied to SL's unpredictable development cycle".

Well it was regarding policing zoned mainland but the issue of how difficult it is for LL to police compared to the average estate owner was made pretty clear. Resources, higher expectations, appeals, reports, red tape yadda yadda yadda and it's true, LL would have more difficulty policing areas.

However the fact that it's on the discussion table means there's room for development.

I, too, used camping to get my start in SL, and to socialize a bit with fellow campers. Like the Money Trees, it fills an important need in SL: giving newbies a legitimate way of getting a few L$ in-game for exploring and learning about SL while they decide whether to stay, and to even permit them to build a small grubstake to start out. It should be helpful to SL's retention rate, to people with serious RL money limitations, even to the people in countries that don't have credit cards or Paypal.

The main complaint against camping is that it fills up sims or imposes lag on them that drives others away. But the only apparent reason for anyone filling up a sim with campers or campbots that way is to build up Traffic numbers. Take away the Traffic motivation, and you take away the incentive to fill up sims with camping. So just end Traffic, and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Actually, it *is* designed to give the Searcher the relevant results for which the Searcher seeks. Use the All search - it ranks on relevance, and it produces very good results.

It's the Places tab search that falls short, and it needs to be done away with altogether. If that happened, there would no more camping bots, and no more traffic bots - and no more of this discussion Camping needn't be banned, and that would be a good thing. People would still put out camping systems to help people with a bit of money, but since they would no longer be used for traffic, the systems would be human useable only, because the people who run them would care about who uses them.

Camping isn't any reason at all for grid instability. That's just a rumour, put about by people who find lag somewhere, see camping or bots, put 2 and 2 together, and make 5. Camping contributes just a tiny amount to the grid load. Massive numbers of real people logins are what causes grid instability.

I'm sorry, Zannah, but I have a bit of a problem with this statement/attitude.

There are lots of places to go and things to see in SL that are free and don't cost you anything, just like in RL there are parks, museums, art galleries, public expos, free "concerts in the park" and so on that don't require money for fun.

On the other hand... in RL, if you want the 'fun' of fancy clothes, sleek cars, top-notch foods, and so on... you have to pay for your 'fun', or make it yourself.

In SL, if you want the 'fun' of fancy clothes, sleek cars, and so on... you have to pay for your 'fun', or make it yourself.

If you're not willing to pay for fun that costs money, then I don't think you really want it that badly. And if you don't want it that badly, I don't see why it should be subsidized by things like camping. Do you want it badly enough to spend $10 on it? No? Then sorry. If yes, either pony up the $10 US... or turn off your computer and monitor instead of camping. The savings on your electric bill will EASILY equal $10 US that you can then use to buy $L and you won't be contributing to lag, etc. by sitting around camping.

OK, but who would make avatars sit around unable to do anything just for a few L$ if it didn't pad search results, a sadist? If traffic is gone then camping is pretty much gone. So something to ask might be what could replace it. Money trees dwindled after they were being raided by throwaway alts, and so on. What would be ways to fill this perceived need for newbie handouts that might be a little more resistant to turning sour?

They aren't the same, though.

Amongst other things, in RL, fancy clothes and sleek cars make you stand out more. In SL, every "good" outfit is fancy and every "good" car is sleek. Moreover, if you do have them in SL and you're a consumer, everyone knows it's just because you put more US$ into the world than the other person - not because you're more successful (as it indicates IRL).

Also, in the real world.. many celebrities who can afford all of these things wind up going onto drugs or having all kinds of drama in their lives shortly afterwards.. because growth is still essential to happiness but they have nowhere to grow to.

I keep seeing the argument to get rid of traffic scores revolve around shopping. Not all places are about selling things. Why are retail places even listed in the "Places" search to begin with? If you sell things then you should be listed under shopping. I hate to see non retail places punished. Already people who failed in traffic scores are starting to game the new search with profile picks. I have had 3 groups already make announcements about the change and to be sure to add them to my picks.

So again when searching for a "place" not a retail establishment, you will end up with irrelevent results because a lot of places that apparently had no value to be visited by people will be higher on search next to places that really do have the traffic and have worked hard for that traffic.

She said she uses her camping money to buy items, ergo she earns money.

As for lag, everything contributes to lag.

I agree with you Desmond, the traffic system would be less gamed if a Linden once a week did a sweep of the 20 top traffic places to see if there are significant campers/bots unfairly driving their traffic - if a place is caught doing that then my solution would result in being blacklisted from search for that parcel for a period of time with traffic being set to zero upon reinstatement. I believe that would put an end to the abuse quickly but only if it was known to be enforced.

To those advocating camping as helping the new people - why not simply give them the money upon arrival ala money trees and let them go on their merry way? If it was really about helping new people this is the way to go - they are not earning it by being sat on a chair for hours on end - they are just wasting resources that could be better used for other things to change a single number in the system. Camping is about getting the traffic, pure and simple - the money is simply a lure not new people welfare.

Ergo nothing. Using money to buy things does not qualify the money as money earned. If I get a hundred dollar gift card for Best Buy I did not earn the money. Similarly if I deposit my paycheck into my bank account it does not disqualify it as earned money because I am not buying things with it. What an odd thing to say.


And....? Everything contributes load to the system of course but the point is not everything that contributes to the load to the system is something that Linden Lab anticipated or desired to contribute load to the system. Creating content and using creations is of course the most expected and intended imposition of load on the system. Having hundreds if not thousands of people log on to the system simply to earn a few cents an hour and do nothing else is probably not something Linden Lab had initially anticipated or desired. Obviously people have differing opinions on the value of camping in Second Life versus the load it places on the system but it's pretty hard to make a legitimate argument that facilitation of camping should rate high and certainly not above other things in Second Life which contribute to load such as residents building, using creations, exploring and socially interacting. These are the reasons why Linden Lab created the Grid. These are the reasons most people initially come to Second Life.

I have never met a new resident who came to Second Life for the camping, indeed I never met a new resident who even knew what camping was. This concept that camping somehow contributes to residents staying in Second Life is a synthetic one with very little to support it. People who say this say this in hindsight after having "benefited" from camping and growing to appreciate it after-the-fact. There are plenty of freebies to be found to put together a nice avatar and accumulate amusing devices etc. for any new player to hold their interest until they can establish a method to buy Linden Dollars. As Desmond said, there is no credibility to claiming hardship so harsh that one cannot afford to buy a few thousand linden dollars over time when one can afford a computer and connection that allow access to Second Life.

But they believe they are. So it's their experience.