Automated Burglary

Fine support it, but until it is fixed it needs to be removed from service.

Actually, I haven't been able to access it all day.

I am quite civil and ethical as ahighly trained and experienced IT Consultant, thankyouverymuch.

That fact doesn't change my opinion one iota that what happened was due to simple ignorance and WAS NOT THEFT. Does it still suck? Sure it does. If the person was my friend, I would offer to help replace the lost items as well as educate her on risk mitigation for risky practices, which this was one of them. All the hand-wringing, gnashing of teeth, and calling it "theft" for 30-some-odd pages in a forum isn't going to change the facts.

The sad fact is that, if you put something up for sale, and someone whom you did not wish to sell it to comes along and buys it, that's your own fault. Take your lumps and move on. The mechanism is there for selling things to anyone, NOT transferring ownership to a specific person. It CAN be used for that as well, but that isn't what it was intended for, nor does using it that way come without a set of risks that have to be mitigated. If you did not know about the risks, you were ignorant (not a bad thing in and of itself, btw); if you knew them, but didn't take steps to mitigate them, then you were simply careless. It's like using a hammer to drive screws; yes, it will work, but there is inherent risk that the fastener will be more likely to fail unless you mitigate the risk (put less load on it), or use the right tool. If you don't have a screwdriver handy, then you have to accept and mitigate the risk. Period.

At the end of the day, all this "LL come save us from ourselves" mentality is silly. Learn the tools, learn the proper way to use them. Learn the risks (they are often all-too-obvious), and learn how to mitigate them. If you mess up, don't cry foul on someone else who is using the tool the correct way; accept responsibility for your own screwup and don't repeat it. Don't expect "nanny Linden" to swoop down and protect you from yourself and the results of your own ignorance. *I* certainly don't expect it; I take lumps from my own ignorance and stupidity and move on.

1) I'm sure it will never, ever do that. Dah-yup. At least, not under the same "brand name".

2) Sorry, my experience in SL and the Forums has not proven otherwise. It's only my opinion. So maybe others do have ethics and morals. I'm sorry for lumping them in with the bunch. This and the other debacles don't help make your case.

And I'm highly offended that this stupid thing continues to operate.

If me commenting on reasons why I think many technical people in Second Life have little respect for the Privacy, Wishes and concerns of their fellow residents is Bad Manners - then I suppose Ill have to live with that criticism.

I suppose I could change "Many" to "some" as far as those with the attitudes.

But Many is a true statement reguarding their Education.

The "Technical" (reguarding Computers) Education for most History Majors for example is lacking.

Thats how specialization works. Most people Specialize in areas they have interests in.

Where does the Ethical decision to Scan and index information on a Website without the Land Owner's Consent enter into this?

I suspect it's more that fundamentally amoral or immoral people can get into any line of work, including IT. Also sociopaths.

I don't see how that explains a general attitude.

Theres 2 basic attitudes at conflict Im seeing

One - People want their personal lives to include privacy and dont want people listing them on third party websites without asking. Many dont want bots snooping around their personal properties.

Two - Theres no reason to ask. Its not necessary. You dont need Privacy. You shouldnt have stuff out if you dont want people snooping it.

The Second Attitude is generally being presented (and historically in other threads) by the more technical types.

OK, I'll bite.

First, Privacy. If you don't want people buying your stuff, or even being on your land, use the Access Control tools for your land and prevent it. Also, "privacy" in SL is practically non-existent, and only marginally guaranteed.

Second, "Wishes". If someone sets something up for sale, then it is for sale. I can't read minds, and the "For Sale" setting doesn't allow them to specify their "wishes". Now, *I* don't go through everyone's land looking for "For Sale" objects, and I might resist the urge to buy something on what *looks* to be non-commercial land or has a rather disproportionately low price for the item, but I certainly wouldn't consider it "unethical" for someone else to purchase it. I might also IM the owner and let him/her know that they may have accidentally left something for sale that they didn't intend, and may educate them on the risks of using that method to transfer ownership ("I could have bought this right now.. are you OK with that?".

Lastly, "concerns". If not wanting a "Nanny State" makes me into a cold, heartless bastard, then I can live with that. I would rather people learn to be self-sufficient and develop strength of character, rather than depending on some governmental force to come in and take care of them (probably paid for by me, too), and do a historically-proven bad job at it to boot.



Well, you are often very wrong. I had quite a few friends in tech college taking minors in liberal arts. Philosophy, sociology, education, etc. I was taking literature and philosophy courses myself, though I wasn't minoring in them. I just liked them.

The other fact you are missing is that not taking liberal arts coursework has ZERO effect on a person's civility and ethics. I developed a strong sense of right and wrong, as well as civility long before I went to college. It's called having good parents and a supportive family. Yeah, I know; it seems like that's becoming an extinct phenomenon, but it really isn't. Selective memory rules in such prejudices and, yes, that is what you are when you are making the above statements; prejudiced. Oooo.. evil word, that. Not really, but, like ignorance, people get their panties in a twist over it.

Learn, adapt, and grow. Don't become static and expect the world to wipe your butt and take care of you.

If the land is public-access, then there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING unethical about it. You've stated, by allowing access, "come on in and have a look around". It's an implied consent, especially when you have the power to deny it at any time you choose.

I don't see what is so difficult to understand about this concept.

Several things:

(1) I am absolute agreement with Har's thoughts on this. He said it well and he's right [applause];

(2) ESC is either a den of thieves or, at the very least, they are accesories to theft.;

(3) ESC is making their own reputation, irregardless of this forum. Whatever their reputation is, it is aproduct of their actions and behavior;

(4) IF ESC wanted to actually behave ethically they would at least do two of the followng - (a) make their "service" an opt in rathe rthan opt out and/or (b) make opting out easier;

(5) I come into SL for fun. Fun, for me, is NOT spending all my spare time defending myself against automated thieves and their latest schemes;

(6) Most techies are ethical. Its the unethical few, like ESC, which give the rest a bad name. Also, a liberal arts education is no guarantor of ethics;

(7) I believe the sheep bot or its users can get your property without having access to enter. Am I corect in this?

Yes, I find it particularly amazing that child molesters can get jobs as clergy and teachers, too. Best hunting in a baited, target-rich field, doncha think?

The bot lists Objects reguardless of Access. In fact it will list objects on Parcels that have banned it.

Reguardless, theres a difference between Residental and Public Commerical.

The distinctions dont exist offically in Secondlife - However Residental Land is generally not on the "places" tab.

Residents can generally tell if a parcel contains a store or a home.

I think people are misunderstanding my statement on Education.

I never said a Liberal Arts education guarantees ethics.

However the more extensive your exposure to certain subjects the more likely you will give serious thought to them.

Being taught the reasons for Civil Rights for example helps you critically think on their value.

A sampling of Course of Study from major Universities will show that Obviously Many Technically minded people wont have that same exposure in a formal setting.

What I have observed that Most of the people who have no interest in Residents having Privacy are Technically minded.

While those demanding their Privacy be respected are not.

If you go back to my statement before everyone got all insulted It was prefaced with "I WONDER"

For ease of opt-out, ESC should set the sale of their opt-out sign to L$0 so it can be found easily via their own website. *smirk*

Personally, I may just put up a big ol "PRIVATE PROPERTY - DO NOT ENTER" sign, then set various worthless things for sale for L$0. Might improve my shooting aim with a little target practice

Try reading: http://search.sheeplabs.com/core/about/





Perhaps. However, I know several folks who have stuff put out in their homes which is set for sale (and they intend it to be bought, too!), even vendors set up inside of a house. The line is never as sharply defined as you would have us believe.

That's why I default back to the use of the "For Sale" option. I wouldn't expect someone to put something up "for sale" and leave it that way, unless they screwed up, or really meant to sell it. That's why I don't consider it "unethical" to purchase things set "for sale". It's FOR SALE! "Oh but I didn't mean it to be bought by just anyone!" Then learn from your mistake and MOVE ON.

Screaming at someone, calling him a "THIEF!!! THIEF!!" for using the tool the RIGHT way just makes one look silly. I may take pity on the person who accepts his lumps and moves on, but for the one who makes himself into an ignoramus over it, I have none. Life's tough; deal.

There are some facts here:

1) Most of the residents of SL are honest, ethical people who respect the concept of private space in SL even though it is far from actually private.

2) However, there is a segment of our population who takes an “it isn’t forbidden in the TOS, so it’s fair game” attitude. You find these people reselling freebies, running land scanners and land bots, etc… Their philosophy: “don’t hate the player, hate the game.” The only reason there hasn’t been a sale price scanner on the market so far is that these people were unaware that there was a profit stream in finding valuable items mistakenly set for sale at low prices.

3) For the past couple of years, anyone with a Scan-Foo could fly by your land and get list of objects rezzed within its scan range, they could even search by your specific avatar name for items owned by you. So, anyone who wanted to know what sex balls you have lying around, only had to fly by your house with an object scanner. It would have taken just a few extra lines in the script to return values and items for sale; no one ever thought to do this because the opportunists were not aware that one could profit off mistakes in item sales. But they are now.

4) All this screaming about the sheep bot is merely distraction and everyone is ignoring the certainty that the “it isn’t forbidden in the TOS, so it’s fair game” crowd are already crafting gadgets, HUDs and bots of their own to do the exact same thing. You won’t get to opt out of their efforts any more than you can opt out of land bots or land scanners or object scanners.

So, rather than fighting amongst ourselves over whether or not the OP was foolish to have left valuable items out for sale for a long period of time, how about we start figuring out how to warn our fellow residents that opportunists are out there, looking to profit off their mistakes and ignorance and what they need to do to protect themselves? Is it too much to ask that we turn this into something productive rather than another forum fight?

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When you hire a interior designer and/or estate manager to place items for you in 30 homes. The only way to that Linden Lab has provided for you to get possession of the items you piad for (without picking them all up and destroying the hours of work you just paid for) is to have each item set for sale while you go to each one and 'buy' them from your staff person. No one sets a brand new 3K Living room set for sale in a 300 USD a month sim to have anyone come along and take it. Now perhaps of this exploitive tool on the market - Linden Lab will develop a new safe way for residents to transfer items without setting them for sale.

People in this thread have already pointed out that banning does not work. The Bot does not need to be on your parcel to scan your objects. Forsetti said the same - however thats not the case.

Banning the bot will only work if its banned out of range.

In the first place, a private estate is different from a privately owned parcel. Someone with a little house on 512 or 1024 is not on a private estate. You beloved sheep bot can access a person's things on their private property and steal them. period. Call me foolish but I believe this is just plain wrong, unethical, and is thievery.

Sooo, let me get this straight so I understand you completely. Doing the above is "using the tool the RIGHT way"? Please. please expand on this statement, inquiring minds want to know.

Lmaooooo okaaaaay, if I am an ignoramus, so be it. I've been called worse and I would much rather be an ignoramus than a thief.

"Life's tough; deal," Yes life is tough. Tooo tooo bad oh sooooo bad the precious little sheep bot, ESC and their apologists can't take being called what they realy are. Need to go, my tears of pity for the poor abused soulds at ESC overwhelm me.

Lmaooooooooooo!!!!

I'm with ya. Sign me up. How do we start?

Well said, Isablan. The cat's out of the bag. So now it's time to educate the rest of the residents as to what nasties are likely to be lurking about and how to deal effectively with them.

True, but a number of these will also be quick to say you have no need for that private space - I see this as a concern.



Also true - Which is why I think we need a better written Community standards. While it wont stop people who are of the opinion "well LL wont enforce it so Ill do it". It will have an effect on those who would not do it if they were told not to. It would also be sending some message other than apathy.




While true, the Bot it changes the Scale quite a bit. The individual with a Scan Foo, does scan the entire grid they can get to daily.



Thats the problem. There should be some sort of Integration plan on how to use bots responsibly on the Grid so we dont end up in a free for all situation.

Right now its going the free for all route.

Its very true the problem is much bigger than ESC's Searchbot.

They are lying. Banning that bot from your land does NOT, and CAN NOT, prevent it from scanning what is on your land.

It can, and most often does, stand on someone else's land and do the scanning, regardless of whether you have it banned or not. The only Private Sims that are exempt from this bot are those whose owners have taken them completely off the map, allowing the sim to be visible only to an explict list of residents. Even a sim-wide ban can't stop it, as it can stand in the sim next to yours and scan with impunity.

It CAN NOT act based on whether you have banned it or not unless it actively moves into your parcel. While it stands outside your land, it can't know it's banned from your land.

If it was possible to set a "for sale" price BEFORE checking the "for sale" checkbox, and if it was possible to set up a transfer of in-world ownership to a single individual only, and if it was possible to transfer multiple in-world items from one person to another without buying each item individually, then I would agree that those who this bot harms are culpable for their own losses. But none of those things are possible.

You try transferring 20 homes full of merchandise, and all the surrounding landscaping, to someone else. Go ahead. Try. Tell me how many days it takes you, if you have to have both parties there at the same instant, and if you only dare to have one item set for sale at a time. While this bot and similar tools are alowed to operate, such transfers are almost impossible to do safely. Tell me what solution you find. I'd love to know.

And please note that even though ESC acknowledged that the people who stole all the original poster's stuff were directed to the goods by ESC's site, ESC made no effort whatsoever to compensate the victim for the loss that was directly enabled by their site.

I just don't get the hysteria....

If you set an object for sale, then you want to sell it, so the Shepherd is good as it lets people know you have something for sale.

For those who say b'ut what about if my designer needs to give me the things he/she has laid out for me?' .... well it takes all of 10 seconds for your designer to set it For Sale and for you to buy it, so the Shepherd, even if it just happens to scan your object during those 10 seconds isn't going to get it on the website in that time and have some search for it and then TP to it and buy in that space of time, and if you are sensible and have ban lines up while you do this anyway, the people using the Search engine won't be able to TP directly in to the area anyway and it would be highly unlikely they'd be able to cam in in time..... and anyway it seems to take the Search engine 24 hours before it lists or delists your items..... so its not going to change the way you do things.

For those of you who rezzed objects and didn't think they had the For Sale setting enabled... well tough!!! You should check anyway, because even if the Shepherd wasn't there other people could still find it and buy it eventually. Its your stuff, make sure you know how it has been set!

But what about my privacy.. I didn't say they could scan my objects. No you didn't, Linden Labs did by not providing a Virtual World with privacy. And besides when it comes down to LL owns everything in SL anyway whether you paid for it or not.

Stop the hysteria and get a grip people!