Automated Burglary

amazing how the apologists for the Searchbot keep coming back to the argument that avs "always" had the "ability" to tp in without warning and snatch stuff only momentarily "on sale" as a workaround to an SL limitation. And in almost the same words every time. One wonders where they are copying it from. Actually, no, one doesn't.

So how come it virtually never happened before the searchbot? Because pre searchbot a grifter woulod have to roam all over, examining objects on every parcel BY HAND. One by one. Covering them all would take thousands of man-hours. The odds of a grifter spotting your transfer item out of all the thousands of parcels in SL and it being something he would actually want? Probably right up there with being struck by lightning on a clear, sunny day out of a clear, blue sky. After the searchbot, what are the odds of a grifter spotting your itme? If the Seasrchbot wasn't as incompetently programmed as it obviously is from the reports of what it shows and what it doesn't, oh, probably around 99%.

You seriously want to pretend you don't see the difference of a risk <0.001% and a risk approaching 99% once this griefing tool starts to actually work (if it ever does)?

You are not someone raising legitimate objections, then. You are a shill. Take your disingenuous, lame sophistry and put it where the sun don't shine.

People on this grid are not stupid. Naive, some of them. Ignorant, some of them. Too trusting - all too many of them. But stupid? You lose, shill.

It is beginning to look like Electric Sheep is populated with maleficent bunglers. First, they release something that screws SL and the Residents they want to make a buck on. Then, it turns out, they screw it up beyond redemption. Then, they do everything possible to piss off everyone in SL with contemptible little disinformation games like this.

Good thing they are bunglers. Imagine if they were competent.

Here's why they didn't make it opt-in and here's why they don't want people to particularly know about it now - it's so they can make this brag:

"Searching 1766614 Second Life products."

coco

A lotta digits to show some corporate suitor, just like LL's "Over 5 Million Residents."

lol .. yep think your right about this one Coco.

Grifter: (from m-w.com)
transitive verb : to obtain (money) illicitly (as in a confidence game)
intransitive verb : to acquire money or property illicitly

Illicit: not permitted : UNLAWFUL



Buying objects that are for sale is PERMITTED, and LAWFUL.

Making the term 'grifter' rather inappropriate...

That is.... unless you're going to make the wildly absurd claim that the lindens deliberately lulled the population into trusting buy-for-0-transfer so that they could have their furtive colleagues use sheep search to buy up all sorts of stuff on the cheap. (And, if so, why would the lindens care? They've already been granted the right by the tos to use pretty much any content in-world any way they want unless you file a DMCA against them!)

You're smart with words... find a term that's not so libelous ("a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression".

Honestly, I wonder at times if your own "disingenous and lame sophistry" is indicative of some ulterior 'troll/imposter' agenda. Are you really employing subterfuge to discredit that side of the issue by representing it so poorly?

Look who found a dictionary.

So much bloviating in defense of a failed, exploitive product, patently bungled from the start, and arrogant and adamant refusal to do anything about it.

Please note I used the word grifter, which is a noun, not a verb. The dictionary cites its original meaning, which is a dishonest carnival game operator who takes advantage of the crowds. But dictionaries are inevitably behind the times in describing a living language. The general use of the word has broadened to mean persons who go about, physically or figuratively, seeking unsuspecting persons to take advantage of. You will find I used it to refer specifically to those persons who used this search tool to "purchase" objects obviously not intended for sale. My usage was accurate.

And by the way, check with your lawyer and you will find that a libel is a published defamatory statement that damages a person in his or her reputation or business, and it has to be FALSE to be actionable. To call a crook a crook may be a "libel,' but it is also true, and therefore legally protected and, in fact, widely encouraged where it is appropriate. To my knowledge nothing I have said is false, and if anything is in error, I will be happy to correct it.

Your little trick of slipping the Lindens into your misstatement of what I am saying and make it appear I am attacking them will not work. Can you understand the concept "intellectual dishonesty?" Your clumsy attempt to drag the name of "the lindens" into it is nothing short of a smear on both them and me. As far as I know, Linden Labs is doing the best it can and deserves no such attack as this. I have to repeat: Sir, have you no decency at all?

I am not and have not been attacking Linden Labs or Linden Labs personnel. I have been and am referring in my statements to The Electric Sheep Company's virtually worthless searchbot product, and its behavior and apparent aims as suggested by its observable actions, and to posters who seem to be agents on their behalf, and to "grifters" who have exploited that tool unscrupulously and may or may not be associated with Electric Sheep. Anything derogatory I have said about them is a pale shadow of what the facts reported by many witnesses in these threads say plainly about it and them. In some cases my language is indeed blunt; I prefer it that way. But it is true. And if you wish to nitpick it, go ahead; I'll enjoy the exercise.

Now, since you seem to have learned what "disingenuous" means, please note that your pathetic attempt to make it appear that I have been attacking "the lindens" (sic) falls squarely into that category. I do not have to represent "the other side" at all poorly. They do that very well themselves.

As for me and my motives, it is hard to understand why you suppose anyone posting here is an "impostor," since one has to be a person with verified payment info to do so, and I am posting under my character's name. I will leave it to others to decide whether I am "trolling," because I have no confidence in your expressed judgment at this point. Of course, that is my personal opinion; others will make up their own minds.

As for motives, it is my opinion that SL is the leading edge of a fundamental revolution in how the Internet is used, one that has enormous implications for such matters as enlarging and enriching people's lives, increasing international communication and understanding, and therefore benefiting such endeavors as encouraging world peace. I think it is tremendously important for many reasons, and I want to protect it. I think it should not fall victim to self-seeking exploiters who act in ways that demonstrably hurt it in an apparent effort to turn a buck.

The behavior of Electric Sheep in this matter, the nature of its searchbot product, and the incredibly arrogant and disingenuous behavior of its apologists all force me to the conclusion that this product is and will be harmful to SL, and that Electric Sheep's intentions toward it and its residents are exploitive in nature and not to be trusted.

We have a product that does not do what it is purported to do, that is incompetently constructed even in its own terms, that was forced on Residents largely without their knowledge and entirely without their consent, that has demonstrably harmed SL residents who have done nothing wrong and places unwary residents in further jeopardy, and a defense of it that consists largely of sophistry and disinformation, and attacking those victimized by its flaws as being at fault for not protecting themselves against something they had no knowledge of and could not have anticipated. The same faulty arguments are presented again and again, every couple of pages (I suspect in the presumption that many casual readers don't look back more than a couple of pages in a long thread), without regard to the fact that they have been exploded again and again.

If this product actually did assist significantly in finding products genuinely offered for sale, and if it had been opt in, and if it and Electric Sheep and its apologists had shown any concern for the well-being, privacy and legitimate concerns of SL residents, I probably would still have the favorably attitude I first had toward Electric Sheep and its search product when I initially heard of it. But the more we see, the worse it gets. This product should be withdrawn and fundamentally rewritten or scrapped, and given the record, Electric Sheep and any future product it presents should be regarded with deep suspicion. The product has discredited itself, and the company that produced it, by continuing to defend it and press it on SL without repair, does the same to itself. And its apologists here discredit themselves too, in my opinion.

But instead of addressing these matters, you attempt to derail this thread with a verbal duel using such sophistries as touched on above without regard for plain, observable facts, which all stand against you, and it.

Bottom line, it is a bad product, and the company that produced it knows by now it is a bad product and continues with it anyway.

Failed? It isn't even past the "proof of concept" phase.

Exploitve? For someone so gifted in the field of constructing complex sentences with big, pretty words, you're pretty narrow minded.

Patently bungled from the start? I'll meet you half way there, if you remove the word "patently".

Arrogant? You speak as if you have had a personal experience or interaction with the folks at ESC who are behind the search bot. Otherwise, you are just calling people names because you hate something you don't understand.

Tell me Har, has this thing harmed you personally or are you just looking for a pre-heated bandwagon to jump onto to in order to improve your composition skills?

So Har, what have you done, other than post in this thread, to address these matters? ESC have publicly invited you, me, and everyone else, to help them tune and refine the product so that it does its intended job without being invasive. Have you taken them up on that invitation, and emailed [email]allears@sheeplabs.com[/email] with your concerns? Or is it simply more satisfying for you to play intellectual games within this thread?

And now, disagreeing with you equals "derailing this thread." In-friggin-deed.

As it stands now - with opting all citizens in without their permission, inaccurate information and community outrage - it has failed. Back to the drawing board.


The person was robbed and exploited because of this device. Seems that Har hit it right on the head.


The 'Build It And They Will Come' come approach has always had surprise outcomes. Mental Note: Focus Groups and Community Surveys for the next Big Idea.


Corporate arrogance is sending a scripted device to all participants parcels and listing their products on a website - because you can.


Don't hate the guy because he can pull a sentence together. This is Resident Answers. Har's opinion is as valid as yours.

As it stands now, no permission is required to list in-world items for sale on an off-world website. I hardly consider a few participants in the forums "community outrage". I consider it a tempest in a teapot.

The person was not robbed and exploited because of this device. The person was robbed and exploited because he made incorrect assumptions about the likely consequences of his own actions.


Mental note #2: Only Linden Lab have the reach into the community required to accomplish these.. otherwise, very good ideas.


Or, on the other hand, community involvement is developing supplemental tools which pick up some of the slack the official viewer lets out constantly.

I don't hate Har. And I agree that his/her opinion is as valid as mine, but he/she has already accused another person of derailing this thread simply because they take a counter position, and argue vigorously for it.

I'll stick by my use of libel because that is the meaning I fully intended.

Unless you care to cite some recognizably authorative source that supports your misleading and incorrect usage of the word. Your "dictonionaries are out of date" defense is pathetic.

Since "Grifter" implies "a person who swindles you by means of deception or fraud" for you to have been using it correctly you would have had to show how the people guilty of 'user error' were deliberately duped into leaving objects out for sale so they could be swindled.

Did I say you were attacking the lindens? No. Did I say I expected you to? No. I said: "That is.... unless you're going to make the wildly absurd claim that the lindens deliberately " meaning that I certainly expected you NOT to make such a claim.

I am no "apologist" for esc. I merely point out that what they do is permissible under my interpretation of law and tos/cs and social customs in secondlife.

And that attacking esc is pointless because to defeat or disuade them directly does nothing to prevent any other group from doing the same.

Your irrationally emotional and perversely lexiogasmic objections attempt to persuade by slander and browbeating more than with logic and reason.

It's a shame you never got to defend your incorrect usage of your outrageously incorrect "accusation of fraud" on the part of esc before that other thread got shut down.

Okay so I went back and read the rest.


You may accuse me of sophistry if you like.

To speak more plainly... I'm calling you a BIG FAT LIAR.

How's that for lack of sophistry.

Wouldn't it have been nice, in the spirit of community involvement, to let the Community know they were being involved in the development of said tools?

(I know this is at Zaphod, but I'll jump in)

Yes. And I won't argue that there is an 'exploitive' aspect to what esc has done.

And in the spirit of designing a tool that could and should become something "google-like" for secondlife, it would have been conversations about the ethicality and willingness of residents to be involved without consent.

Not required... but it would have been, at the minimum, a good marketing angle to start with.

Of course, if they were not confident with their ability to develop and deploy such a solution once the idea of it was common knowledge, and they were worried about losing their competitive advantage... I can't not fault them at all for choosing to remain quiet up to and into the beta stage of this "service" out of self-preservation.

Yes, that's a bit Machavellian... but that's life. Unfortunately.

My issue with Har is that he is laying about with false accusations trying to whip up a witch hunt to deprive esc of their reputation and funding... or so he can just strut and posture here on the forums. Either way... it makes him fair game for ridicule in my book.

Because there is no specific rule against it then it is allowed. Allowed is not always accepted.

Sure it does. That is what public protest is for. ESC wants to make millions of dollars - not deal with this sort of bad press.

A well-trained SL resident. The one that screams the loudest gets the results.

...

The problem remains:

A searchbot many SL Residents find invasive, that has been used by grifters to take advantage of unwary people who did not know of its existence and which is still usable for that purpose, that does not read contents of vendor devices and so cannot locate the vast majority of items genuinely for sale but can identify items owners did not want to sell but left marked for sale in error or by using well-established practice, and many of whose listings are out of date and invalid anyway. Imposed on Residents involuntarily by a company that made opting out of it cumbersome and difficult and shows not the least intention of repairing it or withdrawing it. Whose apologists do not take its failings to heart but are dismissive or hostile to those who present its manifest flaws.

SL Residents need to develop answers for this problem. Some solutions, albeit partial ones, have been proposed. Let's hear some more.

After all this mess I think I understand the real problem.

This bot and the search site isnt the problem. Its a symptom. Its one of many.

Basically the problem is a half blind vision of Progress.

While theres a strong urge towards Progress in a Technical Sense, There is a blinded vision of progress in Virtual Community Rights.

I would completely agree with this if Linden Lab weren't driving the airplane. It's a telling reference to real life. It doesn't apply in Second Life.

"Grifters" - false accusation.

"that does not read contents of vendor devices and so cannot locate the vast majority of items genuinely for sale" -- So? It is a "SEARCH" engine. SEARCH implies an "an effort to find or discover" it does not imply up-to-date, comprehensiveness, accuracy, OR success.

By using a poorly established practice.

dismissive or hostile to those who present its manifest flaws. - yes... when lies are used in reference to those "manifest flaws".


SL Residents need to develop answers for this problem. Some solutions, albeit partial ones, have been proposed. Let's hear some more. "SL residents"

Okay:

Exercise caution.
Warn others.
Keep petitioning the lindens to change their stance, if it makes you feel better.

YES!! YESYESYES! Excellently stated!

I disagree.

I think the general reaction of towards this Scanbot , Landbots , and other such bots supports my Position.

Most of those Ive discussed these automotons with in world have been highly unfavorable, Most had no idea they existed and were annoyed they were even allowed. Unlike many people on these forums they feel they deserve privacy and respect.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion.

I think ESC is doing a stellar job themselves in sullying their reputation, and did so quite literally without any input from us.

As for "depriving them of their reputation and funding," why not?

I don't see that their actions with this deserve either.

coco

so basically peoples blame on an automated bot for their own stupidity?

if you leave something for sale in your courtyard, i might buy it, even without a bot.