Automated Burglary

ESC's Sheepbot is merely the visible tip of the iceberg. The grid is so riddled with bots and scanners spying, swooping, monitoring and eavesdropping that it would make the Watergate Plumbers look like honest workmen.

Really? Let the exploitive devices take over Sl and allow the thieves to run rampant while tier-paying citizens throw up as many security devices they can and cut themselves off from the community? Sounds fun.


Guess what? It is. unless you found my land in the event listings under yard sale or my land is titled "Bob's Rob-me-blind Emporium" then you should not be there buying anything. (A little note for those of you with broken moral compasses).

As I stated before - this is the only method available to transfer items without picking them up. Knowing this - a device to make it easy to find items set to zero FOR TRANSFER PURPOSES should not be on the market until a new, safe transfer method is introduced.



Nanny State vs. "Eat your Young". You Darwinists love a good feeding frenzy.

I really think Linden Labs should sit down with Bot Makers and skileld scripters figure out how they can mitigate the damage of bots as they come online to Residents.

Right now what we have is Chaos with much more Chaos on the way and Most Residents are clueless, Others are alarmed, and someone(s) who shouldnt has their head in the sand.

No, but you ARE making the prejudiced (and quite stereotypical) statement that "many" "techies" are prone to unethical/immoral attitudes and behavior because of some (ill-)perceived lack of formal "Liberal Arts" training, which is just as bad, if not worse, and no less insulting.



How the HELL do you *know* what I have been exposed to? You don't know ANYTHING about me, and I imagine that can be said for 99.99999% of the rest of the "techies" you are decrying with your prejudiced comments. For all you know, the majority of us probably have had more and more intensive exposure to the subject than even yourself! It's just a stupid, prejudiced, stereotypical view because you want to color your opponents in an argument with a black stain since you fear your own argument can't stand on its own merits otherwise. It's sad, really.



..and what do you say to the techie whose parents and grandparents MARCHED in Selma, Alabama 42 years ago? You think that any "Liberal Arts" degree is going to teach him more about Civil Rights and critical thinking than what his own family will relate to him? Hmm?



Prove it. Cite the source of your "obvious sampling", because I don't believe it. Prove to me that formal training in "Liberal Arts" curriculum makes people more prone to civility and postive ethics/morals than "techie" curriculum.

I presume you are a Liberal Arts major, yes? If so, how do you reconcile your prejudiced attitudes with your own statements? The answer to that should be good entertainment.



I'm a "techie" and VERY "technically minded", and I have yet to say anything about residents not deserving privacy. All I have said is that people who want their privacy need to take steps to ensure it as best they can, and not piss and moan when their own ignorance prevents them from securing it to their liking.



Well, you're the one wondering, pondering if it is true, trying to invent evidence to support it. You tell me what that has to do with the price of tea in China.

Techies quite often build it because they can. Think Nuclear Bomb.



People quite often ignore the teachings of their elders.



It is not ignorance that got us to page 34 of this thread. It's community outrage because of a device that was created that exploits the only method made available to us to transfer items without picking them up.

I hope this brings you back into focus on the issue. Thanks.

Before you lost your temper - Please keep in mind I never called you unethical. I also Specifically never refered to you. But you do insist on making it personal.

If you have failed to notice more disinterest in Social Sciences amoung technical minded people than those who studied Social Sciences, I wont say your wrong. I have noticed this, however.

If you think that the typical Computer Science Major has more coursework involving things like Civil Rights, Constitutional Government , etc. than someone with a liberal Arts Degree- Fine .. I dont think you are right , but whatever.

If you dont feel learning and being asked to serious consider certain topics has a value to you forming opinions on them, then your entiled to you opinion.

As to me wondering, I was simply wondering why so many technical minded people positng in this thread are being so dismissive of others desire for privacy. And I hypothesized it might be becuase their interest in Technical subjects overshadowed their interest and training in others.

I dont claim to be more Ethical than a Technical Person. I never even said I think I am.

I do think those who support a desire for Privacy are on the correct side of this issue - those who dont want you to have any - arent.

The Use of this bot was performed in a manner that Disreguarded anyone's Privacy concerns.

Again with the community outrage. How many participants in this thread do we have hammering away in the anti sheepbot camp? 5? Far cry from community outrage, which implies something on a broad or close to unanimous scale.

And by the way, your statement was far too loaded to serve to bring back any sort of focus on the "issue".

OK, so you use the hammer to drive the screw because LL hasn't yet invented the screwdriver. So, MITIGATE THE RISKS OF USING THE WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.

1) Set the sale price to something realistic, like the replacement value of the items. After all, if you trust your designer to give him the furniture to begin with, you should be able to trust him enough to repay you the money after you buy it from him.
2) Block access to the land to prevent people coming in and a) listing it, and b) buying it. Works better for private islands, maybe, but it is one way to mitigate it.
3) Keep the window of opportunity for someone undesired to come in and buy the items out from under you as small as possible.

Above all, petition LL for a screwdriver.

Complaining that you failed to mitigate the risks and someone bought your FOR SALE items, causing a loss to you and resulting in you calling the person a thief, doesn't endear me very much to your plight.

Or petition ESC to disable this device and close the website.

How about petition ESC to start a new version and make it opt-in?

coco

Works for me....but I am not holding my breath.

9,256 views of this thread. And on day one I e-mailed it out to 50 SL residents. Also many Sim Owners are making group announcements and sending out notecards. Zaphod, the community is outraged. You may successfully convince yourself otherwise but the numbers paint a different picture.

This thread is spinning out of control, even for a derailer like me. But this much i will say. We are all bringing Rl concepts in and out of the argument as it suits us. I don't want any scan , search and list program including me ,WITHOUT my consent. Not here, Not in RL. I don't care if it is perfectly designed, and works flawlessly or not. I don't want to be an unwitting BETA tester for ANYTHING. Why is that such a difficult thing for some people to understand? Any company that that uses such a business practice, is one that will not get my support.I don't want Mama Linden riding herd on me either. I am the biggest critic of the blame someone else for my mistakes mentality. I take all resonable steps to protect my property, both in RL and in SL. I'll jump through hoops if need be when an unexpected threat arises and I am aware of it. Sl is open source, anyone can create things for it, that's great. But don't include me in your tests without my knowledge, and consent. While it didn't happen, what if this beta went wrong, and somehow caused people who did protect their assets to lose them? Who would take responsibilty for that. Not LL I'm sure. They can't even guarantee our invetories are secure on the Goddamn Grid. Would ESC make good if this happened? I doubt it. As for the Virtual Privacy(Or lack thereof) I am going to address that in the feature suggestion thread.

If it was NOT THEFT, then the items would be returned graciously after the misunderstanding was cleared up.

You may think you're ethical, but I disagree. You're essentially saying "It's legal, ergo, it's ethical."



You're ignoring the fact that there is a missing mechanism for transferring property en-masse without requiring it to be taken into inventory and re-rezzed (which never puts it in the same location, which is usually a critical element).

The original problem here is that SL is missing an important mechanism, and the "sell for $0" is a workaround.

Just like taking something from a room that isn't locked.

Or, seeing something that isn't yours sitting on a park bench; picking it up and walking away with it. Is this ethical? You decide.

I say that in the vast majority of cases, the people buying knew that they were taking advantage and not doing anything in concert with the original owners wishes. If you think that taking advantage of the mistakes of others is ethical, well, again, I disagree. It can be ethical in some situations (business competition) and not in others (someone stepped away from their laptop for a moment).

This is a common practice that people have been doing without incident (or with rare incident) for years. Now it has terrible consequences, only because (a) the sheep makes it easy, and (b) there are unscrupulous people willing to exploit this new "opportunity".

Getting something for nothing is fine when the giver intends it. When it's unintended, it's reprehensible.

And folks, please let's ignore and stop starting the ad-hominem attacks. It's pointless. That's why it's considered a fallacy.

Considering I have never proclaimed any love for the "sheepbot" or ESC, that's a pretty big stretch, but please continue with the hyperbole, it's rather amusing to watch.

As far as I am concerned, if I put something up for sale, it is for sale. Period. If I use that as a way to transfer ownership of an object, you better believe that I will do as much as possible to mitigate the risks. If I lose something as a result, oh well, MY BAD. I was using the tool for something it wasn't designed to be used for and got burned as a result. I will take my lumps and move on.



Yes, it's a real simple concept to grasp, even for the slow-witted folks out there. Putting something up FOR SALE means that it is FOR SALE. Any other use constitutes RISK OF LOSS on the PART OF THE OWNER WHO PUT IT UP FOR SALE. Thus, using it the "RIGHT WAY" doesn't harbor risk of loss. Using it the "WRONG WAY" does. Simple, no?



Personally, I don't think ESC really gives a crap about the 5-10 people in this thread expressing their "outrage". They certainly aren't worried about being called "thieves", since (most likely) none of them were the ones who bought the items in the first place. But don't let that stop you from making yourself look more like a twit by name-calling and libeling them. They are working to provide a service; maybe a controversial one, but definitely a novel one. They seem to be willing to listen to reasonable discussion and concerns; something this thread is mostly bereft of, with posts like yours being a prime example.



I hope you find your "a" someday. Maybe a flashlight and a mirror would help?

With this scenario, your life span will be so short, you won't live long to enjoy it.
Bring your yoga mat and some fresh air and RL friends too.
The geeks will bring us the world and we health nuts will inherit it.

I think you would have to add that you actually submit the parcel that you want to be searched and the bot has to actualy scan when on that parcel so as not to mess it up

I dont dislike this search engine I dislike the way its being managed however. If it were opt in first the bot would have a list of places to visit and the results would be accurate (assuming it did the search from the parcel landmakr you submit) right now its a broken useless bot that submits things all wrong and the stuff is terribly outdated etc

Anyhow such is life. If it was used as an opt-in only search engine it would probably be pretty neat. Right now its just kind of a mess and needs to be removed and redone to actually be of any use to anyone

I think ESC learned their lessons from LL very well.

Never engage people except on your own terms, on your own turf.

Listen politely, deflect where possible, then do whatever you want.

As for the searchbot itself - which I vastly prefer to call a spybot - it doesn't work the way I thought it was supposed to.

It had gathered everything I had for sale for Cocoanut Koala before it was published on the ESC website. It had also gathered an item that wasn't for sale, and was made by me, but not owned by me. I TP'd to this persons treehouse and found it there. I worked with ESC to get that item and its unsuspecting owner removed from the list.

Then I went to the ESC place and opted out of the system. That worked.

Then I made several items by my alt, and placed them out. They have as yet to show up in the search.

Then I went and opted ALL the way in, as myself, to see what would happen, and how many results it would pull up.

So far, it has pulled up none. There is also no confirmation pop-up saying that you have chosen to opt in everything at ALL.

(I can't remember if there is a pop-up showing you have chosen default, but I do remember there is a pop-up when you opt out.)

Now it's not beyond the realm of possibility that I might have been the only person ever to fully opt in all my items, and this part of it just doesn't work, but they don't realize it.

In any case, the 24-hour thing doesn't seem correct. I had understood that the thing traversed the grid every 24 hours, but it does not.

coco

I agree with you Talaurus, ESC doesn't give a crap about any of us. Most thieves don't care about the people they rob from OR the folks that are morally outraged by thievery. If they did, they would make some very simple changes and fix the flaws in the sheep bot system. As Har so elequently pointed out, libel has to be a FALSE statement. I haven't even come close to saying anything false about them or their actions. If they believe I have, they can sue me. Or, they could even contact me personally in world and I would be delighted to discuss my issues with them. I would even invite them into my home, briefly, for the purposes of that discussion.

I haven't indulged in any personal attacks on you, only ESC and the users of the users of their...um.."service." I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. If you think I am a twit, fine..I can live with that. As alluded before, I would much, much prefer being a twit to being a thief.

The simple fact is what ESC is doing is wrong. The people that are using ESC to take items from people's homes or property is wrong. ESC can fix this. They refuse.

All of your personal attacks on me wil lnot change those facts. Nice try though, really.

It is something I would have to test, but it doesn't mean that they are automatically lying. They can get parcel settings as well as object settings, and they may have written the bot so that it CONSCIOUSLY does not include items scanned on plots where it is not allowed access.

Has anyone actually TESTED this, or is it just another assumption made in ignorance?



SURE IT CAN. The parcel access info is sent to the client. How the hell do you think the client would know to put up NO ACCESS lines otherwise?



Can you not set that info up in the Properties page for the object while it is still in your inventory (and, thus, not accessible by anyone, bot or otherwise)? Yeah, you can't set an object for sale to a specific person, so what? Petition for the screwdriver and learn to mitigate the risk of using a hammer to drive screws in the meantime.



I've already named several. The most foolproof is setting the prices to something reasonable which would make the whole issue moot. "Oh but I don't have that kind of cash, and I don't trust the person who set it all up for me!" *shrug* Then do it the hard way and bitch to the Lindens to give you a screwdriver. If you resort to using the FOR SALE trick, then mitigate the risk, and accept that you are at risk of losing stuff as a result. "You're a thief! You bought my stuff which was set FOR SALE which really wasn't FOR SALE!!". Yeah, right, uh huh. Life's tough; deal.



Why should they? They didn't perform the purchasing, nor did they enable it. The owner enabled it by setting it all FOR SALE. Someone else did the purchasing. They simply listed the existence of the items FOR SALE in their search engine. Chances are, it sounds like it was set FOR SALE for quite a while; long enough for Grid Shepherd to get around to indexing the sim and someone to get around to searching, locating, teleporting in, and buying it. Possibly more than long enough for someone who had never even heard of the search engine to happen upon the items and buy them, too.

Well they should. EVERY SL resident is a potential customer for any of their ventures. They are working to provide a service? Fine. If I want that service I will ask for it. As far as listening to concerns and suggestions, This thread is the only reason they are (allegedly) listening. They were more than willing to Back Door this scheme, without any concerns or suggestions. No, nothing will change my mind on this. This idea was conceived and implemented in a totally unacceptable manner, to me. It doesn't matter if I am the only person bothered by this. I don't like it. And none of my items were marked for sale, anyway but it doesn't matter. Sometimes I don't have to be inside the fish market to smell a rotten fish.

Wow. I didn't realize learning how to use tools and educating oneself in their proper and low-risk use was so isolationist and reactionary. Thanks for the education! </sarcasm>



Guess what? Don't leave your crap FOR SALE, and *gasp* it won't be bought out from under you! Wow! What a concept!!!!



Then LEARN HOW TO USE IT and MITIGATE YOUR RISK! People have always been able to buy stuff set for sale since long before the indexer bot came into existence. People have been buying mis-set FOR SALE items and land for a long time (not talking about bugged stuff, but something where the person actually was at fault, or using a risky practice to transfer it). NOTHING of this should come as a surprise to ANYONE. Use a risky practice and you might get burned. Deal with it.



Yes, but at least we have truth and the facts behind us.

Just one finer point I'd like to make here - They aren't just doing this for you, seller of stuff. It's of even broader benefit to shoppers looking for the kind of stuff you sell. It isn't just about you.