Zyngo, is it gambling or not?

Well then, he was a day late, and a dollar short, and a tad shy on gumption. Bummer. But it happens all the time. Maybe he has a future in Sex Beds. Ooops, day late, and a dollar short on that one, too.

Since we are making up definitions....I think I'll add "risk" to my definition of "gumption." Entrepreneurs take risks. Sounds like you didn't take it when the timing was right. That whole paragraph is sour grapes. You said it wasn't even about the "gambling" issue. I see that.



I think you are fooling yourself, and setting yourself up for constant disappointment.... if you believe that you can make a mechanical venue on the Internet (for god's sake).... that involves anonymous people using multiple anonymous alts....FAIR. Are you for real on this? Seriously? Where do you come up with this nonsense?




I just threw that in, because just about every time someone has a beef with LL....it involves the complaint that someone else is getting preferential treatment. Not necessarily that it applies in this case....but that is the whine that comes up every time someone doesn't get what they want.

There are many ways to "schmooz" that do not involve bribery or immoral practices or corruption. Holy #@$%!! Call it Networking. Anyone who is at the top of their game....most likely did some. Handy Tip....telling people that control the power in the networking system that you want a chunk of... that they are corrupt....isn't a great way to back-scratch.

Fighting corruption? I suppose I should lmao off now....but I do respect that people come to SL for a variety of fantasies. I suppose that's yours. But in the middle of your fantasy....would you mind not stomping on the toes of those who came in for FUN....to escape that? Do you mind? Are we getting in the way of your corruption-fighting fantasy?

So you think that encouraging this type of behavior toward something that has been approved by the service provider (yes, LL is just a service provider on the Internet - hate to bring everyone back to reality)....

......is a great plan? ummm....since you will be filing the reports to the service provider who approved them?

Interesting.

Well... LL has provided the option inside the Abuse Reports to file against gaming devices. If LL chooses to ignore the reports on them and allow illegal gaming devices to continue, then they could open THEMSELVES up to liability and possible loss of accepting credit card payments. Zyngo DOES use random number generators to place the tiles, so they are NOT skill based games (even if they require a little more skill than your typical slot machine).

It is not limited to credit cards. Any method of cash transfer to a company that is identified as an unlawful internet gambling site operator by a bank will have all means of cash transfer to the company blocked by such bank.

Sex beds aren't outlawed.

You missed my point.

My point is....that you were a day late, and a dollar short and a tad shy of gumption, on creating those, as well. You could put your energies into creating better ones.....but that would involve some risk. Nevermind.

Wrong again.

When there is a RIGGED SYSTEM, there can be no safe "risk" worth taking. Gambling is outlawed, but CERTAIN people's gambling devices are allowed AGAINST the rules. Who is going to be STUPID enough to take that on as a risk? Might as well be tilting at windmills. There was no "good timing" because something nefarious is going on. If I had a popular GAMBLING game selling at the time they instituted the gambling ban, I would have stopped selling it. I wouldn't go after some "backroom deal" to circumvent the goddamn policy.

Sour grapes my tail. There's right, and there's wrong. I bet you'd call my fighting against effin' ADFARMS and microparcel extortion "sour grapes", too, wouldn't ya?

Get real.



It is done all the time. I have RUN such venues. Next?



It is not about what I "want" or "don't want" with respect to gambling. I already said a thousand times I DON'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE GAMBLING. What I want is a world without corruption, a world without jerks trying to defraud and screw people over to get ahead, a world where the owners enforce a consistent set of rules fairly, and a world without APOLOGISTS for all that garbage (sound familiar?). I know I won't get it, but that knowledge sure as hell doesn't stop me from trying, as long as there is a chance of getting some small amount of positive movement towards that goal. I had NO END of adfarmers telling me I was an idiot for trying to stop them, that LL would do nothing about them. Guess what? THEY are GONE now, I am still here, and their little "scam" got busted hardcore.

If you want to make my stance out to be some kind of ridiculous "envy" crap, you're completely clueless.



This isn't one of those situations.



Al Capone would love to have called it "networking". "Honest, Agent Ness, we're just networking!" Yeah.



If one has to CHEAT to get to the "top of their game", then they don't deserve anything but derision.

No, you're not going to get away with describing smarmy back-room deals as "networking". Not going to happen.



If they are corrupt, I am going to tell them so. I don't pander to corruption. I have no desire to become PART of the corruption, thanks. You might, but that's your problem. If so, then I'll add you to the list of people I'll target for reform.



Yeah, the fact that adfarms and microparcel extortion are almost nonexistant now is also one of my fantasies. Funny thing, though; it became REAL, so who's laughing now?

If your fun involves being part of that kind of stupidity, then I will GLADLY "step on your toes", and I will revel in it. >

No, I didn't. It's not even the same thing.



I already make all kinds of poseable furniture scripts and systems, better than most of what is out there, too. Has NOTHING to do with "gumption", nor timing. If I wanted that business, I would have NO PROBLEM going after it. There's little risk involved, and no obstructions to pursuing it.

It isn't the same thing with Gambling devices. LL won't allow what I make BECAUSE GAMBLING IS AGAINST THE ToS.

Fixed it for ya - took all of the controversial stuff out of SL.

Welcome to the new grid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Checkersboard.jpg

Your move.

Not sure if you are aware of this....but a good portion of the functions that we use to run our businesses in SL are "rigged." Not by design, and not by LL intent.....but by an abuse of the tools. We take "risk" every day in our planning and operations. The mechanics change constantly. New abuses are introduced constantly. Some of us adjust, and it works out fine. If you had a popular game that was no longer acceptable....you simply adjust, and move on. Perhaps tweak the mechanics of your game to meet requirements.

Still sounds like sour grapes to me.

As for your fight against ad farms...your braggadocio, which you introduce into every one of your forum debates is becoming boring, and your fifteen minutes of fame is over. It's not like you saved the rainforests. Get Real.



As I said earlier....I respect that you come to SL for reasons that are at the other end of the spectrum, than the reasons I log in for. I arrive with a laissez-faire attitude that none of the above matters in the whole scheme of things. Not my concern about how a service provider chooses to conduct their business. If it becomes prohibitive.....I choose another service provider. Spending energy on the above, is a waste, imo, because as you say....you "won't get it." But if you choose to spend your experience here, that way.....fine....as long as you respect that people are spending their energy in other ways. The people playing those games every day are having fun....and some are collecting money to continue to play the SL game. I don't need the lindens....but have enjoyed playing the games myself. And it saves me from walking down the street, and dropping 100 bucks into some machines that are very similar, and are LEGAL, in a community that does not allow wagering on "games of chance." But yes....there are people like you screaming about those machines, too. They are wasting their time and energy.




You are taking an extreme example. I never mentioned "cheating" when I mentioned "networking." If you are not aware that you can network productively and successfully to build a business without "cheating".....too bad. It's a very important tool. Again....this sounds a wee bit like sour grapes....based upon your choices of words and drama.



Big "IF." If you truly believe that.....then find another service provider. I do not pander to any type of "corruption" when I log in every day to perform business functions....and neither do the majority of other business owners. I do believe that if you "add us to your list of people to target for reform" that you will be stepping over a line that you have no business stepping over, and destroying some concepts that keep SL alive and well and FUN for people. And you would be clearly in the WRONG for doing so. No ifs, ands, or buts on that. The only thing we could be accused of "pandering" to.....is a pleasant experience in SL. If you want to fight that.....you have a pretty big fight on your hands.



If you have so much lack of respect for what most people come here for....Fun, Exploration, Socializing, Entertainment, Escape, Relief, whatever......and if you "revel" in stepping on it....well, I wouldn't know where to begin to help you with that particular "issue." That's far beyond anything that SL can "cure" for you.

Laws and rules, which restrict behavior in which no one is injured, are made to be mocked, circumvented and just plain broken. Free men can do no less.

You left out repealed, which is the most valuable tactic.

But let's not confuse:
1) The UIGEA, which I believe should be both mocked and repealed;
2) LL's decision to ban gambling, which, as a private company, they have every right to do (in spite of it being motivated by the UIGEA);
3) LL's questionable enforcement decisions around their gambling policy, which are legitimate issues for discussion in this forum.

Just because we may scorn LL's motivation for the ban doesn't mean that we must approve or ignore their inconsistent, probably ignorant, and allegedly corrupt decisions.

Of course I would adjust and move on. The difference is that certain people did not "adjust and move on", they tweaked the system instead. The former is correct. The latter is not.



Then clean the crap out of your ears and listen.



It has nothing to do with braggadocio; it is a pertinent EXAMPLE of people cheating the system and hurting others that got fixed; it is an example of the residents taking up a cause, against all odds, and making positive change happen, all CONTRARY to your take on the situation.



It doesn't sound like you have any respect for anything at all. Nope, just not seeing it.



Some people have more invested in the "service" than you do, apparently. Some people want to see things get better with their service providers. If you believe the service provider<->customer relationship is only a one way street, then enjoy taking it up the tailpipe when things don't go your way. I choose to act to make change. This isn't a static environment canned at the factory, where we have no choice but to eat it as served. Hell, the Lindens INVITE us to come in and ask for change, but even if they didn't, I'd still tell them anyway. I much rather give a service provider a chance to keep my patronage than simply walk away when I encounter the first difficulty.

In addition, don't sit there and tell me that, on the one hand, I have no gumption, then on the other say that laissez-faire is the way to go. Next you'll try to tell me that black is white.



Obviously, it WASN'T a waste, since many things have gotten better in SL as a result of such efforts. YOU might think it was a waste, and that wouldn't surprise me, but none of us who have been involved in making change happen (of which even you enjoy the fruits, I might add) think it was a waste at all.

The adfarmers chose to spend their energy the way they did; they were "having fun", too. They were collecting money to continue to play the SL "game", too.

No, I don't have to respect them at all. Spending energy putting an end to their abuse was not a waste in any way, shape, or form.



I don't know why this isn't sinking in, but I will reiterate it again to see if it penetrates the denseness: I DON'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE GAMBLING. I DON'T CARE ABOUT "THOSE MACHINES". The problem I have is that LL is FAILING to follow its own rules and playing favorites with some residents over others in violation of the spirit of their rules and so-called "mission". It doesn't matter if it is about gambling machines, or advertising, or land, or whatever.

The only thing I want LL to do is either refine the policy, or enforce it fully.

It is about consistency in the application of the rules.



That's because the situation doesn't apply. "Networking", or whatever comfortable metaphor for it that you want to use, to get around a RULE *IS* CHEATING.

I am aware of how REAL "networking" to build business works; I have even SPONSORED such networks in RL. That DOES NOT APPLY in this case.



Why? If I can get the current one to fix the problem?



Then stop trying to tell me that *I* have to do so by "adjusting" to it.



If your participation in SL hurts other people, or you participate in a corrupted system that does so, you deserve what you get.

We had a pretty big fight on our hands with adfarms. We won. Obviously, I have all the "gumption" in the world to see it through.



If someone's "Fun" involves reducing other people's "Fun", ESPECIALLY profiting off of it, then yeah, I revel in stepping on it. If you believe it, then I would have no intention of "helping you" with that particular "issue".

I'm pretty confident that is not my purpose in SL, and that is not what happens when I log in. But we are all a work in progress. My zyngo machines are free to play, btw.

We are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum, and will remain so....so further debate is a waste of energy....and I've used up my allotment of time on this, for the day. Have a Happy New Year.

Strange, I thought we were talking about hypotheticals this whole time. You mean you REALLY meant *ME* only when you said "you"?

*shrugs*

Happy New Year to you, too!

So is anyone still disputing that Zyngo is a game of skill?

No, Mickey convinced us all. Zyngo is definitely a game of skill.

I have to go figure out how to get water out of a tap now.

I just go by my own experience, and the numbers that come in on my winners reports every day. The first times I played - the score would generally be under 20,000, which generally doesn't score a win for you. I bought one for myself, and after several dozen play periods, figured out how to maximize your score.

You're welcome to go up to the third floor of my store, and do your own testing, Anya. They are free to play. There's one Zyngo machine and another machine called Ocean Hunt. There are many different kinds of machines on the market, by the way.

Just keep track of your first dozen scores. And I can compare those to the scores of the "regulars" who come into play, and have the "skill" thing down.
I doubt that it is appropriate to give a tutorial on how to win....but the skill involves a strategy in knowing where to place your jokers, and which rows to complete first. Also....you can do something that is similar to "counting cards"....that the black jack players some times do, if you want to go that far. I did, by paying attention to what numbers were most likely to pop up more often in each row, and by managing my jokers that way. The reason I played close attention....is that I had my alt playing my own zyngo machines, and she would never win.....not even come close....and the people winning, were getting huge scores that she couldn't even touch. I thought something fishy was going on....but it wasn't. What was going on, was that she needed to play for another week, to figure out "how" to win. And she did. Skill.

Since you have to pay 1L, which I return to you, to play....I see the amount of times they are played on the transaction list, and I see who is playing. I don't see their scores, unless they win.....but if I see "new" names...they generally do not win for the day. The "regulars" win. Skill.
Yesterday's high Zyngo score was 78,400. As I said, the first week I played, I could barely touch 20,000....got it up to 35,000 with some practice....but rarely broke 40,000. Maybe if I studied it a little bit more, and tried some other strategies, I could continually score above 50k. Yesterday's high score on the Ocean Hunt machine was 81,270. I haven't figured that machine out yet - it's a bit more involved. But I can hardly break 30,000 on that one.

Play it half a dozen times.....and tell me what you score is. Generally, the winning scores are above 40,000 on Zyngo, and in the 70k to 80k range on the Ocean Hunt machines.

If you can't make these scores the first dozen times you play. There's your answer.

Mickey, I've played zyngo. The first time I played I scored 67000 or so, and most of the rest of my playing was trying to beat that score.

I just typed "zyngo freeplay" into search, went to a randomly-selected place on the first page, and played four games using autoplay. You'll find my alt (check the profile) has the high score of 69090 on the freeplay machine at Mars Zyngo. Using autoplay.

Skill, my ass.

The "strategy" is

fill the pattern
fill the diagonals
fill rows that are already more full than others
don't be stupid and use the green joker for something you can get another way
don't get so bored you miss using a joker

Slightly more complex than getting water from a tap.

Here are things that have much more to do with your score, which are random and completely beyond the player's control:

the numbers that are rolled
angels
diamonds
2X score doubler
the pattern
number of jokers, and how useful they are when you get them
devils, how late they occur, what percentage they take

Anecdotal evidence simply doesn't cut it.


A proper analysis must begin by acknowledging that skill vs. chance isn't a simply binary state, but a continuum. The RL laws that are the motivation behind LL's policy aren't intended to prohibit only those games that are totally devoid of any skill element. If anything, it's the opposite. The standard specified in the LL Wagering FAQ ( http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Wagering_Games_FAQ ) specifies that the ban applies to games with an element of chance, but may not apply to games of "pure intellectual or physical skill." (The weasel words "may not" are LL's as well.)

So I'll concede that there's an element of skill in Zyngo. So what? Having an element of skill is not synonymous with being a game of skill, and your observations don't prove the latter. Saying that you can do better with some experience isn't enough to prove it a game of skill.


On the contrary, I'd consider it extremely appropriate. It doesn't involve the criticism of any individual or business, nor is it sexually explicit, which are the main criteria for inappropriate posts here. Why do you think it's not appropriate?


This raises a different point. If it's really possible to determine that some numbers are more likely than others to occur in a certain place, then it ought to be possible to determine that strictly from the rules, without having to make observations. For example, blackjack odds are full analyzed mathematically, and basic strategy cards are readily available. Or look at it another way. If you (or at least someone skilled at probability and statistics) can't do that from the rules, then I'd submit that the rules aren't sufficiently well-defined to make this a game of skill. And I've never seen a description of the Zyngo rules that had enough detail for this analysis.


No. Merely an element of skill. Comparing newbies to experienced players only proves an element of skill, not a game of skill.


If a statistician can't make these scores the very first time, after a thorough analysis of the rules, then it's not a game of skill.

Well, I didn't take into account the autoplay - I never used that - but aren't we talking about people playing on their own? If you count skill?

There is more to the strategies than above. If you take auto-play out of the equation - even the above strategies, as simple as they may be.... involve skill.

All autoplay does is fill columns for which there is no decision to be made. It doesn't play jokers for you. It makes the game go faster and removes one element of inexperienced play: stupid mistakes (not taking something you're given).

BTW, I added a list of random elements to my post after you responded to it. I don't really need to do more than that since Kidd said pretty much what I would have.

It is possible to determine that some numbers come up more often than others.....so it's wise not to play your jokers on those numbers, and to choose a number that does not come up more often. Skill.

I am not knowledgeable on what percentage of "elements of skill" are involved in labeling a "game of skill".....is there a definition on that?

When I go to the race track - horse racing has been determined to be a game of skill, in that state.....and is legal over games like poker and craps, which you are not allowed to wager on. Poker has been determined to be a game of skill, I think, in some states. It varies. But at this race track, it has not yet been labeled a game of skill, and is not allowed. Black jack is allowed to wager on....but there is a bit of a farce on that, in how they got it under the radar, that I can't really go into detail on. The deal is....it varies across the US. Surely LL is using something as a guideline - I would assume it is the rules that were determined for wagering on Internet games.

There are a number of variables involved in a horse race that are as random as any feature on a zyngo machine.....if not more random. There are games on the internet that have been determined to be games of skill....that have randomness involved, as well.

There are several other dozens of games available to play and wager on in SL. Are you addressing those? Why are you singling out one? Because there are more....does that not blow your theory on "corruption?"

I'm still not clear on what the concern is. Are you worried about people losing money? It's their choice to plug it in. Or is it that a few creators got their games approved, and others did not? The service provider can decide who they want to do business with. Take some other examples like the Showcase featured ads, and the Xstreet ads that pop up on your home page. That's not exactly fair either....but to scream "corruption?"

Yeah, the bible belters around me are screaming foul play too, in RL. But deal is....certain games were approved. Done Deal.

If an AI can play it. Where is the skill?