Zyngo, is it gambling or not?

There are communities in RL that operate under the same circumstances labeling "Games of Skill." Wagering is not allowed on other activities....but on "Games of Skill" it is legal. The games look exactly like a slot machine....and the places that they sit in, look exactly like a casino. It is Legal.

Zyngo requires some skill to win. Go play one for a while, and figure it out.

Take your SL energy for squashing gambling to the real life neighborhood where I live and have at the church bingo nights where it's possible to win hundreds, even thousands, of real $$$ There is one for every night of the week at some church hall or Knights of Columbus.

Gambling is not allowed here either.

Good luck.

In the US? Got an example?



Zyngo requires a couple decisions over the course of a lot of button-pressing. It is mostly random.

Here's an interesting article that shows the folly of LL making this determination itself:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Articles-Notes/online-poker-skill.htm

Note that even within the US, the definition of "games of skill" is not uniform, and also note that there are some states where you can not win a prize even on a game of skill.

Yes, in the US. I don't care to give an example, since the one I'm very familiar with, is around the corner from me. But several states have a similar set-up in a few communities.

If you go play a Zyngo machine...the first few times....your score will be very low. The more you play it, the more you figure out what those processes and decisions are to increase your score. Even though it is random, the series of decisions totally effects your score.

You are correct that the definition of "games of skill" is not uniform across the US, but some of those games have been cleared for wagering in some areas that do not allow wagering in general.

The problem that some of you may be having is in the way the Zyngo owner sets up the machines to pay off. They can set the win score very high, to make it nearly impossible, or they can set the jackpot unbelievably high, then set the amounts to play, very high.
Some people use them simply as a give-away tool. They are free to play, and pay out once or twice a day.

There is a HUGE population of Real People playing Zyngo machines all day. They take those winnings and buy stuff. The Zyngo machine players in my store....buy stuff. My customers that were already buying stuff....play the Zyngo machines. The players across the grid are spending those winnings at your stores.

What is it that you are fretting over? You think people are developing gambling addictions in SL? Is SL not an addiction problem in itself? What about logging in for 12 hours straight and shopping all day? You're still dropping coin in a machine all day, without high odds of a pay-off. You want to regulate that too, for morality's sake?

Uh... well, the thousands of Zyngo, No Devil, King Bing games that are all over the place and clearly allowed by LL mean yes it does.

Possibly ...



Thank you for that. Adding it to the OP.

I don't care about RL examples. I don't particularly care about gambling, either. Gamble all you want. Just don't tell me that 1) Zyngo isn't gambling, by definition, because it is, and 2) that the applied policy is fair; it isn't because it allows for preferential treatment of some residents over others.



I *HAVE* played it. I know people who play it a lot. "Requiring some skill" DOES NOT make it "not gambling"; chance is still the predominant factor. You can play it "perfectly" skill-wise and still lose.. repeatedly. Poker requires some skill, too, but it most DEFINITELY is still considered "gambling", because random chance has a MAJOR impact on the outcome of each hand for each player.

Despite some places setting the game odds so that it gives money away, most do not. Most use it (and games like it) as a primary or a supplemental income source.

I don't give a rat's ass about people gambling.

No, really, I don't.

What *I* fret over is making a "game" which in any way has a random factor involved, like the Egg Lottery we use to determine who gets limited release Adult Dragons, then having Asinine Linden come along and return all or part of the system because it is deemed "gambling" by virtue of us not paying GamblingPolicy Linden enough through the back door to let us run it, EVEN THOUGH it isn't gambling BY DEFINITION.

What *I* fret over is someone coming to me to script them a game which involves people putting money into it and receiving winnings out of it based on one or more factors, INCLUDING randomness. I have to turn those PAYING jobs away because I have no idea if what I make is even ALLOWED, and I am certainly not going to get that from LL BEFORE I waste that time or that customer's money developing it to find out via LL's ridiculous "try it and see" process.

It has nothing to do with morality. It has everything to do with practicality. It has everything to do with fair and even application of the rules to all residents.

Zyngo is gambling, and is allowed, flying the the face of the gambling policy over which everyone else has to suck it up.

ok... I see. You didn't make the time or effort to see if you could get one of your own products approved, so you are going to scream sour grapes or foul play over profits lost, due to your lack of gumption.

Life ain't fair in a virtual world on a computer screen. I can give you 100 examples right now, that will never end up fair, because of mechanics involved that are next to impossible to control. You can too. Suck it up.

I'm sure the other half complaining are going on about so-and-so gets special treatment from LL. Well yeah.....businesses get special treatment all day long in any world. If you're not willing to do the schmoozing and back-scratching required.....not a problem.....just don't whine about it. But it happens every day, and always will happen. Alternative is to stand at the water cooler all day and bitch about it, while the back scratchers are out making a fortune. Someone going to pipe up and say that Schmoozing is Illegal? It's generally not. It's one of the ways you get a business going.

You don't want real life examples of the definitions of "games of skill" (which vary)....but you want to define the above. Doesn't make sense.

There's really no point in his trying to get approved: he won't be. You can bet on that, and it won't even be a gamble. LL has already chosen the skill-slots scripter, and it ain't Talarus.

BS. You DO NOT KNOW what you are TALKING ABOUT.

It has nothing to do with "gumption", it has to do with RISK. No customer is going to pay me what amounts to a significant amount of RL money to design and develop a product that they MAY not be able to ever use or sell. I CERTAINLY am not going to take on such a project myself with my pay hinging on it. You can't take it to LL at the planning stage because their policy is "try it and see" -- meaning that you have to go through ALL that development effort and expense, then put it out, then AR yourself and see if it gets returned or not (I kid you not; that is what the stupid policy is, as explained by the Lindens who deal with the gambling policy). Even if it DOESN'T get returned after that, there is no guarantee it won't suddenly fall afoul of the rules one day and start getting returned.



REAL LIFE isn't fair, because there are many factors far outside of anyone's control. SECOND LIFE *CAN* be fair, because many factors, ESPECIALLY policy factors, ARE within control of LL at the very least.

As has been said a million times, SL IS NOT RL. The same issues that RL has do not (have to) apply to SL.

Seriously, where do you get this nonsense?



People getting special treatment backdoored around POLICIES need to get squashed hardcore, as well as the Lindens involved in it. No, I am not going to bribe or otherwise use immoral practices just to "get ahead", and am going to do my damnedest to expose, shame, and destroy those that do, because it is WRONG, and it needs to be excised from ANY world like the cancer it is.

What the hell do you think is the point in fighting corruption in the first place?

No, RL examples of "games of skill" don't illustrate the point about whether they are still considered gambling or not. Beyond that, RL "games of skill" have NO BEARING on the LL gambling policy, or its implementation thereof.

It is, in a word, IRRELEVANT.

You are right, though, the whole stinking policy and its implementation most definitely doesn't make sense.

As long as humans are involved, SL will never be fair.

QFT

To be able to say they tested zyngo, they had experienced and inexperienced players play identical games and found that experienced players scored better.

You don't say.

Here's another game that will pass that test: Press this button once per second until you see a light, and then don't press it for five seconds, and then continue pressing it. Repeat until I say so.

In fact, this game is pretty much identical to zyngo. You press a button until you have an option of doing something other than pressing a button. Then you do the obvious, and continue pressing the button. The trick? Not being so bored that you skip your opportunity to do something other than press a button.

The "strategy" for playing zyngo can be communicated in twenty seconds. Actually, the biggest challenge is choosing which game to play.

Here's another game that benefits from experience: Craps. Do you suppose LL would okay a craps game if their test was repeated for that game?

No, the "test" was a sham, performed by someone not qualified to identify a game of skill or to stay within the law. They did it for Aargle Zymurgy because they wanted zyngo to pass. They wanted to be able to say they tested it and it passed. They *need* gambling, and they wanted it controlled by a friend. Gambling wasn't really banned; it was GOM'd.

Let's just get this settled once and for all....

EVERYONE go out and AR as many Zyngo machines as you can find for violation of the gambling policy.

Let's make January 2010 into International Zyngo Takedown Month.

I don't think anyone in the curious-about-zyngo camp has enough at stake to be so motivated, though maybe someone who spends a lot of time developing a game that is denied might be so motivated.

I think the more interesting disgruntledness will come if LL ever has to hand out pink slips. I think you'll see LL do everything it can to avoid that. If it happens, I suspect we'll find out who Aargle is.

No it doesn't. You stated the skills aspect is what manages to get it around the wagering policy. Unless you are reinventing the English language it does nothing of the sort. I defy you to find anywhere in the policy or the FAQ on the policy where it says there is a skills exemption.

If you actually read the FAQ it explicitly states that the mere presence of chance such as random number generation (i.e. tile generation for Zyngo) that affects the outcome of the game will make it violate the wagering policy. This is in direct response about whether it matters if skill is involved and refutes any notion that there is a skills exemption.

Further, even if there were such an exemption (which there is not) it has has been pointed out time and time again that it is logically inconsistent to claim that a slot machine which requires limited interaction has a sufficient level of skill to exempt it from the wagering policy while poker, a game requiring vastly greater skill, does not.

All the presence of slot machines does is prove that Linden Lab ignores enforcement of its own policy at its discretion, not that some kind of non-existent skills exemption is being granted. Pointing to their presence as proof that there is a skills exemption only illustrates ignorance about what the wagering policy and wagering policy FAQ actually states.

I will do LL's job for them, when they put me on payroll.

OMGZ.... I actually agrees wif ya on sumpfin'!

That will ruin your reputation.

I haz a rep?

Lies! It's all LIES!

I wasn't referring to anyone in the curious-about-zyngo camp. I was referring to anyone who is pissed off at Linden Lab for any of its controversial business decisions or the ones that will inevitably be exercised in the future, has pulled up stakes in Second Life and therefore doesn't care about the negative impact reporting Linden Lab to financial institutions and government agencies might have on Second Life, and has a few hours to write a few letters and follow up letters to the right people just to stick it to Linden Lab.

Having AR sessions against slot machines wont accomplish anything because Linden Lab has already decided it is not going to enforce its wagering policy when it comes to Zyngo slot machines and their ilk. The only way Linden Lab is going to change its practices when it comes to enforcement of the policy is if it believes that there is a real risk that it will get in trouble with bank enforcement of the UIGEA against it, and 50,000 residents can AR slot machines 1 billion times and it wont accomplish that goal.

In all practical senses, this is true, but it most certainly CAN be more fair than RL.

Real life examples of games of skill:

Darts.
Bowls.
Archery.
Clay pigeon shooting.
Pool.
Snooker.

List goes on. Why are these skill games? Because they rely on a person's skill to accomplish the goal. Notice they don't have much or anything in the way of random factors, number generators, shuffling, dice or cards.
Further more try and absorb the fact that as a regular practise and not included intrinsically in the game there is no ***WAGERING*** or risking some sort of your own currency.