Zyngo, is it gambling or not?

I love the distorted view that TV and movies give of the FBI, CIA and NSA.

Not at all true. Knowing what the people who actually enforce the law think is far better than guessing. In my experience, law enforcement agents tend to be helpful when one asks them, "What can I do to be sure I'm following the law?" A lawyer shouldn't miss an opportunity to ask those questions.

Umm ... you do realise why lawyers specialise, right?

Linden Lab never wanted to shut down gambling. Linden Lab was forced to shut down some gambling after the FBI investigated it for potential violations of various laws. The odds are low (zero) that the FBI has completely forgotten about Second Life and all the wonderful illegal activities for which Second Life can be used. Even if the FBI is not actively investigating gambling in Second Life right now, it would be easy enough for an agent in another investigation (let's say, completely hypothetically, a child exploitation or child porn sting) to call up the agents in charge of internet gambling to say, "Hey, you need to take a look at this Zyngo." Zyngo has been big enough long enough in Second Life for the hammer to fall if it were going to fall. It's not like Zyngo is a drug cartel that law enforcement would need years to crack to be able to take down the whole network and all of the leaders. Linden Lab will allow whatever gambling they are able without the threat of legal action against them, because it makes money and there is no indication that Linden Lab has some sort of moral imperative regarding gambling that supercedes profit motivation.

There are all sorts of groups that get behind movements to save people from themselves. It can be quite catchy and get policies and constitutions changed.

I don't know why but those Zyngo things really bug me for some reason; them being exempted from the rules / laws even though it clearly is gambling. I think what really bugs me about all of it, is not the machines, not the fools gambling but that Linden Labs allows it to continue.

That's a bit of an overstatement. I made a mistake earlier referencing 2006 by the way. I was thinking of the year the UIGEA passed. The earliest articles quoting former general counsel Ginsu Yoon about the FBI visiting the grid at Linden Lab's request appear in April, 2007 although none of the articles specify when this actually happened in the past, and the purpose of the visits was to raise any issues in general that the FBI might have. Shortly after the articles appeared, Linden Lab implemented a policy restricting the use of words that relate to simulated casinos in any classified ads, place listings, or event listings. In the same blog in which it announced the policy Linden Lab also stated that it was not aware of any law enforcement investigations into gambling in Second Life.

Several months later Linden Lab adopted its official policy regarding wagering in Second Life which banned ANY wagering games that involve an element of chance that affects the outcome of the game including ANY game involving random number generation (e.g. Zyngo and all its ilk). Nowhere in the blog, knowledge base or FAQ regarding this policy did Linden Lab ever mention any law enforcement investigation. The implementation of the policy did however coincide with the deadline for publication of the regulations for the UIGEA by the Secretary of the Federal Reserve System, in consult with the US Attorney General. (It was significantly delayed however, probably at least in part because US Attorney General Gonzalez was preoccupied with preparing for his testimony before a Senate investigation into his office).

That is interesting. I would like to see the originals if you have links please?

What about other countries?

True, LL is headquartered in the US. As we have seen from the VAT fight though, they are not quite sure which country's laws they should follow.

IMO it's gambling

AR'ed a machine quoting their policy back to them. I was taking out some anger and drama out on it. Now I am just curious to see the Loose Lunatics squirm.

It's a matter of percentages. Apparently, if a game is at least 51 percent "skill based" then, over time, you'll make money, if you're good enough at it. I play Zyngo and No Devil and more often than not, I come out ahead. It takes time (and money) though to develop the skills required to overalll come out ahead. It's usually not by much though. Certain times, regardless of how much skill you have, the randomness is not in your favor, and you will not win the game every time. I've had the devil come up 4 or 5 times in a row and reduce my score to under 1000 when I'm trying to achieve say, 480000. In the end, my personal take is that it IS gambling, but the skill aspect lets them get around it.

The real money in it has to be owning a popular sim with row after row of machines ranging from free play to thousands of L's per play, but even that's a gamble, just ask the people who were stuck when gambling was 'banned' and the mass exodus of gaming sim owners sold off their land, crashed the banks and land pricing, and such.

Why does it concern you?

As previously stated:

I don't care about gambling laws.
I don't care about the punters blowing their L$
It does not impact on my life.

However, it does irritate me when I see them because they have been given an exemption when they are clearly against Loose Lunatic's ToS.

Wonderful. None of it concerns you directly, but you've got some kind of hair jabbing you in the ass, that makes you want to nose around in other people's business.

They are allowed. Leave it at that, and find another way to relieve your tension and anger. Why don't you direct it toward bots, that are clearly not allowed.

Will add: there is something for everyone in SL. If you need to use it to release hostility fine....it can be directed toward a worthy cause. Banishing bots. Have Fun with that. But people like to play Zyngo. It fills a gap that camping left, as a way to earn lindens. Let them have their fun.

No, it doesn't

As compelling as your emotional tale is, I am afraid it has not swayed me.

It's hardly an "emotional tale."

What I don't understand is.....why some people have to go around nit-picking the grid all day, and filing AR's against people for ridiculous reasons. Unless it's some kind of self-gratifying pleasure thing. It's becoming abusive, in itself.

I will take the crucial bit out of quotes:

"The term "wagering" applies to any covered game or activity ... in which a user contributes Linden dollars ... **or in any way risks Linden dollars**

This policy only applies to wagering games that involve ***an element of chance.***"

Allow or ban all. No exceptions. It is a matter of principle.

Witch hunts have long been a popular sport on the grid. With every new rule LL puts into place, they give the mobs more ammo to use against the villain of the week.

Takes off her pointy hat and bows in a grand gesture.

Ooops wrong hat.

I don't know about that. A whole class of activity has been banned except that there's one glaring exception. Kinda begs for an explanation. Without word it looks like a wink-wink knod-knod arrangement, and some people find that offensive.

IMO LL is betting the business on zyngo. What's at stake makes it look like zyngo is quite important to them, and in a world where they ought to be impartial to resident businesses one wonders how zyngo can be so important. Makes one wonder all the more what the hell is up with zyngo.

If people didn't go around "nit-picking the grid all day... etc", we'd still have adfarms and microparcel extortion out the ass.

The only gratifying thing about it is that the mainland is a little better for the price of a little vigilance. It's about on the same level as removing a tick from your own or someone else's body. Why anyone wouldn't understand that is beyond me. <.<

As for the gambling thing, it is really unfair that LL allows one particular type of gambling to continue while taking all others down. If they're going to ban gambling, then that should mean ALL gambling, and not giving a veritable monopoly on it to a few people who know how to pander and play to LL's weaknesses in the impaired judgment department.

Except that the operators of the current slot machine parlors in SL are the same people who use to run poker rooms and casinos in SL. So with regards to the businesses actually running the slot machines there is no preferential treatment going on. The preferential treatment would be with regards to the slot machine creators but I suspect that many of them were also merchants of the more traditional slot machines and gambling games that used to sell in SL so I am not sure it is even applicable in that situation.

I don't think that Linden Lab has any real interest in facilitating these slot machines. I do think that it is relying on the ability to point to its written wagering policy, which does in fact classify such games as a violation of said policy, if there are any inquiries by law enforcement agencies or financial institutions (which must largely self-police under the UIGEA), coupled with the belief that such parties will either not actually investigate the grid to see if the policy is actually enforced, or, that if they do, they will not comprehend that they are looking at slot machines when they look at games like Zyngo.

I do think that is a somewhat questionable risk management position and cavalier attitude for it to take, if for no other reason than that it has upset so many SL residents by its business decisions in the past and very recent past that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a disgruntled former resident might take the minimal effort it would take to basically draw a diagram of how Linden Lab might be in violation of the UIGEA for some key legislators that support the UIGEA, the Justice Department, and the compliance departments of the banks that Linden Lab uses as depositories.

Keeping in mind the self-policing aspect of the UIGEA, the banks in particular would not have a very high threshold for proof that Linden Lab is a site operator of unlawful internet gambling before they might make a decision to block Linden Lab from receipt of any money. They certainly would not hesitate to freeze the accounts if a law enforcement agency called on them to do so even in the absence of any formal charges filed by such agency.

Exactly.



By "many" you must mean "one". There is only one person who has clear authorization to sell gambling machines in SL.

Do ANY of you people go into SL to have fun anymore? ANY of you?

Some people do NOT collect money from the Zyngo machines. They GIVE IT AWAY.

GEEZUS. Go into SL and get some kind of a life. This is just nuts.