SL CSI Promo...will the grid survive Oct 24th?

That's just it. I don't think anyone else has the power to impose their vision onto me. My vision is MINE. No one can take it away or alter it, simply by doing their own thing.


I'm not sure what you mean by "corporate spam". When I go to a mall in SL, I'm "greeted" by thousands of little tiny posters, all with something inside them for sale. Whether or not the business owner who put those posters there happened to have incorporated his or her business does not concern me, nor does the size of the business.

The last item I bought in SL was a scripted HUD for controlling facial expressions. I don't remember off hand who made it, but whoever it was, I really don't care if the he/she is self employed or if he/she works for the largest corporation in the history of Planet Earth, and is selling goods on their behalf. It simply doesn't matter to me. I know it does to some, but I don't think I'll ever be able to understand why.



I'm not following you here. Are you asking me how I'd respond if I'm chatting with someone seeking a virtual romantic relationship with me, or how I'd respond if someone came along out of the blue trying to sell a dating service?

If it's the former, I'd simply tell the person politely that while I'm flattered, I'm not interested in virtual dating. That's another thing that, while I respect that it's very real to some, is not something I personally could ever understand. It's not my thing.

I have had exactly that experience many times, by the way. I have yet to encounter anyone who had a problem with my answer, or who caused any problem for me by the question itself or in their reaction to my answer. It's never been a big deal.

If it's the latter, then I might be slightly more annoyed, depending on how it was presented. To any random IM out of the blue, I'd give my usual answer, "I have zero tolerance for spam. Please don't ever contact me again." I'd probably say the same if it were an in-person visit from some random person who came just for that purpose.

However, if it's someone I'd been having a conversation with, and they happened to mention "By the way, I work for eHarmony, and I think you should join," I'd probably just say "Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not single," which is the truth. If I were single though, maybe I'd consider it. A good friend of mine met his wife through eHarmony. I guess it works.

Bottom line, advertising never bothers me unless it's intrusive. I was self employed for 12 years before I started working for ESC, wich means I've spent a lot of money on ads in my life, even depended on them for financial survival on more than one occasion. I can appreciate good marketing when I see it, and I can laugh just as easily at bad marketing. The only time ads ever bother me is if when they intrudes into my life in such a way as to eat my time or interfere with ability to concentrate on what I'm doing. Spam does both of those things, which is why I don't tolerate it, and why I've never used it in my own marketing. Aside from that, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone wants to tell me about their business. I'm happy to tell them about mine too.



Actually, the first time I Googled "sci fi building" and found my place listed (somebody had blogged about it), I was pretty excited. I of course read the blog post, and was flattered that someone had liked my work enough to write about it. That was 3 or 4 years ago.

Now you might say "But Chosen, your place is a very public museum, not a private little house. That's different." Well, is it really? I don't think so. If I want to build something private, I'll do it on my own computer, not in a public world like SL. There's absolutely no such thing as privacy in an online world where everyone has a free-floating camera above their heads. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.


Not sure where you're getting that.

Thanks for the answers, Forseti. I have signed up to get an early version of this viewer (I think that is what it is for) on the site you listed on SLUniverse, to see exactly how that search box works.

From what you have said, it brings up the entire SL tabbed search thing, but I'm having a hard time visualizing how that would work, so I'm anxious to try it for myself.

The new users using the viewer, however, will not particularly realize that that the search is where shopping IS, and will think "shopping" consists entirely of OnRez. I imagine everyone had better get right to OnRez and list their items. (I certainly intend to update mine before the 24th; they aren't complete.)

coco

P.S. I really don't understand what is supposedly so terribly broken about the SL search.

Or, you can just go to OnRez in the first place. Or SLExchange.

coco

We aren't all just consumers of entertainment here, where the only thing that would matter is whether or not we choose to visit a certain sim, or ignore it. We also have been producers in an economy.

It's more like if I were a person living happily in a third-world company making a pleasant livelihood carving wooden images, and all of a sudden the U.S. dropped in, with mass-produced items, and WAY deep pocketbooks.

We were a happy little craftsman society, with our economy. Then our land began being sold to ENTIRE CORPORATIONS for the same price that we paid for it, literally on the same playing field. Doesn't take much from there to figure out which way the wind is likely to blow.

Since you are now working for the corporations, you are obviously not adversely affected in economic terms by these changes, but those of us who don't work for them may well be.

In addition, LL's direction now is slanted more toward real-world corporations and entities and their needs, and that affects us, too.

coco

P.S. I don't view this as "the complainers' side."

I like that answer. A lot.

coco

I won't rehash the details of the numerous threads, Linden blog entries, and jiras about the problems with Search. Maybe the simplest explanation is the current approach's *extreme* inability to scale. It would be maybe okay to select by simple token match and rank-order results by either payment or traffic *iff* there were a few hundred businesses in all of SecondLife. But as it is already, the "best" (most on-point) match to a reasonably qualified Search string is almost never on the first page of results. If there were, say, ten times as many listings, the Search results would be completely useless; some say that's the case now.

Oh, yeah, that. I like the categories, though.

coco

Example - Electric Sheep's Search Bot. The Search bot was introduced as an opt out system that systematically scanned all the objects it could reach and listed the ones "for sale" on a third party website.

It was compared to a google web spider, it was advocated that it was completely within the TOS.

None of that changes the fact that it was imposed on everyone whether they agree with the 3D web of the future Idea or not.

By the Search Bot and your company "doing its own thing" it DOES infringe on those who want Second Life to work differently from the internet and who want some semblance of privacy.

Whether they cant have any privacy, or if its unreasonable is beside the point. Its still a current example of someone deciding their vision of Second Life can intrude on someone else's.

This is in contrast to the Virtual Worlders who are merely complaining. They aren't actively doing anything that will allow them to infringe on the 3D web people. Because LL's vision coincides with that of the 3D web side.




I was extrapolating the 2D web into the future of the 3D web. One of the biggest criticisms is that the Virtual Worlders lack vision of what the future can actually hold.

Well if I open a 2D website I get Ads I get car ads, plane ticket ads, dating site ads, computer ads, you name it. Side Bar Ads, fake news story ads, Pop up ads.

In the 3D web of the future idea, the same thing will most likely happen.

No, It doesn't happen now. But when it does happen it will definitely infringe on those who sought a fourth wall when they get an advertisement for the brand new Real Life Saab when they head to the SL mall. (As I get a Saab ad when I open www.netscape.com)



I wasn't interested in how you'd respond , at all. I was simply explaining that someone in the eharmony mind frame hitting on someone who is only interested in the SL virtual world experience is pushing his 3D internet vision on her.

The virtual world experience includes virtual dating with no real intention on that dating moving to any real life connection at all.

The eharmony/3D web idea of SL as a 3D social/dating site is completely different from that.



In the Virtual World mindset - it is a private little house. And that is all it is.

You are coloring how other people "should" see it by your own experiences.



What I am getting at the mere advancement of the 3D web concept intrudes on the Virtual Worlders.

Its not a case of them being nosy in the 3D web advocates views, its a case of the 3D web concept implementation tearing at the fourth wall the virtual worlders want.

They don't really care what you want to do in your second life, As long as your second life doesn't damage theirs.

Not so much different from what you want.

Except you are going to get what you want. And you getting what you want means they lose what they wanted.

So yeah they are going to complain.

I think it's probably ok for me to say this at this point, since Forsetti has already said so much. Here's how it works. Are you using Firefox right now? See that Google search field at the top of the screen? As you know, when you type something into that field, the browser opens a Google page with your search results right on it.

Same concept here. Just type whatever you're looking for into the search field at the top of the viewer, and then the regular tabbed search window you're already familiar with will pop open, with your results waiting for you on it. Basically, it saves you the step of having to open the search window first, just as Firefox's search field saves you the step of having to go to Google's website first. I think this will probably be more intuitive for new users, and slightly faster for everyone else.

But wait, it gets better. In Firefox, as you know, you click on that Google icon to pull down a menu from which you can choose alternate search engines. OnRez does that too. Notice in the screenshot, you see the SL hand icon at the left of the search field. Click that, and you can switch it to ESC's search engine (which is still under development, so not functional yet.) In theory, any number of other search engines could be added (but don't ask me about the company's plans about what to or not to add; I have no idea about that stuff.)

Personally, I see this as one of many important first steps towards being able to "surf" SL as easily as we surf the web. Don't expect to be able to do that any time soon, but I'm sure that's the direction it's going. (not speaking officially here, just my own opinion, as usual)



Possibly, but I'd say four things in response.

First, my own in-world sales have remained flat, despite the fact that I haven't had time to add a new product in almost 2 years. The fact that corporate presence in SL has increased dramatically in that time hasn't changed anything. To me, that says that concerns about how corporate presence would affect the economy are at best premature, and at worst, little more than fear-mongering based on nothing more than unfounded speculation.

Second, what smart companies are trying to do by entering SL is to learn how to reach out and embrace the SL culture. This is why they hire ESC and other virtual world specialists to advise them expertly, rather than just jumping into it blind. Part of learning to embrace the culture means not doing anything to upset the boat, which in no small way, includes the economy. I very much doubt that any RL company would come to SL with the intention of putting in-world merchants out of business or devaluing the economy in any other way. That wouldn't be in their interest. They come for very different reasons than that.

Third, if corporate presence does have an impact on the economy, what makes you think it would necessarily be a negative one? As someone else already implied here, where some see panic and fear, others rightly see opportunity. One example of opportunity that comes to mind is Showtime's The L-Word. That show has had a significant presence in SL for a good long time now. For quite a while its registration portal was yielding the highest retention rate out of all sources of new residents in SL (and may well still be). All those long-term SL residents like to shop as much as anyone else. Do you think some of them are probably shopping in your stores? It would be hard to image they're not.

Fourth, just in general, change is an inevitable part of being in business. If you want to stay profitable for any length of time, whether in SL, RL, or any other L you could think of, you have to be willing to adapt. To expect circumstances to remain the same forever is to be dangerously naive.

Up until about 100 years ago, it had been really profitable for centuries to be in the horse whip manufacturing business. Then the automobile came along, and suddenly horse whips were obsolete, through no fault of the whip makers. Their world simply changed around them, as worlds so often do. Those who embraced the change and said "maybe we should start making leather car seats instead of leather whips" remained in business. Those who did not embrace it perished.

Regardless of what happens with viewers, search engines, corporations doing their thing, and everything else we've been talking about, I'd encourage you to embrace change, always. The worst thing you can do for yourself and everyone else around you is to try to remain rigid against the winds of change. Learn to love change or perish. It's as simple as that.


Some people like to say this (loudly and often), but I've never heard or seen anything myself to indicate that this is actually the case. LL makes its money off land. Who does, and will always, own more of that, a handful of large RL corporations, or the millions of individuals who make up the general population of SL? I think the answer there is pretty clear? Why would LL want to ignore their bread and butter. Seems to me, you've been listening to the complainers and the conspiracy theorists on that particular subject.


Except for that last part, neither do I.

We agree, Coco. Leave real life at the login screen, as much as possible anyway.

Yes, I have Firefox, and I googled before Google was cool! I knew about it because of my research as a writer, and Google was early on one of the best for the things I was looking for. I've been doing that since, oh, since Google began.

But here's the thing I am not clear on: Google returns everything in a row, all together. Nothing is in categories. It all comes up (I believe) based on hits popularity. (Which is sort of a self-perpetuating thing.)

The SL Search divides things up into categories:

people
events>divided into discussion, arts and culture, etc.
places (divided also, I can't remember right now)
classified
etc.
Plus an "all."

Now this is where I get confused. You and Forseti say this brings up the "tabbed" thing we are all used to.

Does that mean, like I think you mean - that it brings up an exact replica of the SL search window? If so, how could it decide whether to show you "Paradise," the people with that name - or "Paradise," the place - or "Paradise," the event? Which tab would it show on top?

OR - does it just bring up just "all" - a whole list of everything mixed together, like Google does?

Do you see what I'm trying to ask?

I would also ask some questions about when you DO get your own search engine up and running, as you seem to be saying that isn't really ready yet:

1. Will it replace the SL search entirely?
2. How will it be determined what will be included in it?
3. Will it have categories?
4. If not, will order depend on hits popularity?


Well, I don't think you can really conclude that, as there is no experimental control. For all you know, had not the corporations entered, your sales would have skyrocketed. (I don't think they would have; I'm just saying, there is no way to tell.)

And by the way, I am not in the business of fear-mongering, and speculation is something that thinking people do, as they try to assess the present and the future and decide what is the best way to position themselves.


And don't think I don't appreciate that! However, some ARE competing for our business, by selling items (or worse, giving them away), and renting residential areas, and they pay for it all with their huge advertising budgets.

Personally, I have considered this sensitivity to our plight to be a sort of honeymoon period, and don't expect it to last, especially as corporations start competing with each other. If and when that happens, we're toast.


I would point out again that I'm not in the business of seeing "panic" and/or "fear." In fact, panic and fear are concepts that simply couldn't apply to this online game for me. (I don't even panic or fear real life important stuff!)

I do, of course, like the idea of anything that brings new residents and new customers into SL. I think that's a slightly different consideration, though, from the one about do you buy my car, or get a Pontiac one for free (or whatever).

It's also a different consideration about whether or not we all will be included on proprietary clients. This splintering of the search into his search, her search, and their search (along with giving the orientation spots to specific chosen people) is yet another issue that makes it hard to compete on any sort of level playing field.

Overall, though it is impossible to say, I would say at this point I have BENEFITED more from the new customers than I have been hurt by any corporate presence.

I'm looking at the future. With enough corporate presence, yes, I think it would have a negative effect, and I think to some degree, it already does (though not on my sales specifically).


Well, I get tired of hearing about being against progress. It is quite possible to argue about the direction process should go in, and that is what I am doing. Otherwise, I would have to agree from the get-go that the only possible definition of progress would have to be corporations coming into SL.

While you might make an argument that LL needs that to survive (and I think we know nothing of the kind), deciding that that direction is "progress" and any other direction isn't, kind of skews the discussion from the start, don't you think?

Moreover, I would add that there is only a certain amount of adapting one can do with companies that come in with huge business budgets and basically dominate the world (if that is indeed what will happen, which isn't at all certain).

In fact, the BEST adapting you can do - and the smartest among us did it right when the writing appeared on the wall - is to go to work for those companies yourself. Which you have done.

Now, if a person doesn't desire to adapt in that direction (which I didn't), then a person is rather without recourse in the situation I've outlined above. If regular content creators become obsolete, so be it. However, that wouldn't mean I "fear change" just because I wouldn't love that.

I am hoping, though, that it doesn't become a world where most people (it would never be all) who create and sell things in SL give up. But that could happen.

Well, I've already lived through and "embraced" a great deal of change, and never had any problem with it. However, not all change is fabulous. That would be "change for change's sake" or something like that.

If it proves to be not fabulous to enough people, then regular people will no longer be in SL, except as tourists, and that will simply be the way the cookie crumbles.

But it won't be because most people can't "embrace change," or "fear change." It will be because most people don't LIKE the changes.

You've got to admit, LL started out as one thing, and sold itself as one thing, while all along planning to do another. As Philip famously said, "We had to make it fun back then, to get the people."


Again, I don't "listen to the complainers and the conspiracy theorists," as you call them; in fact, I have a mind of my own, and quite a good one it is.

As for the land, that is an interesting question. I agree the corporations are by far the minority in land-holding now (no stats to prove that, it's just my impression).

My point is, that could change. Can you not imagine an SL where most of the people in it are corporations, and some educators? Because that could grow. Particularly if SL got a reputation for being best for that sort of thing, rather than as a place for players to live, create, and sell.

I have no trouble envisioning a world that is mostly that. People would still come in, for various reasons - like the new CSI thing - and of course, it is free to do so.

We are a long, long way from corporations holding most of the land, is my guess, but can't you see that as a possibility?

There will, at some point, either be a peak of corporate activity, that will then decrease and most will go away (my hope!), or the two populations will co-exist (as they do now). Or the corporations could continue to grow, the balance will change, and they will wind up holding more of the land. Any of those scenarios is possible.

As for the question - why would LL want to ignore their own bread and butter? - I don't know, but they do exactly that!

I have enjoyed this discussion.

coco

Coco, it looks exactly the same. We haven't had time to change any underlying windows even if we wanted to. So what you see when you press the search button in the current client is what you'll see when you search for something in the OnRez Viewer -- it just starts by searching All from the input box, rather than starting blank.

I'd put a screenshot here but the text colors are still a bit off and being fixed, so I'd rather not till it looks good. Yes, that's the grand conspiracy -- I didn't want to show it off while it was incomplete. Sinister huh?

I don't think people are going to be confused by the Shop button. It's an option. Do you really think that anyone can start exploring Second Life and not run into a million stores? It's pretty obvious that there's in-world commerce. The hard part is going to be making them feel comfortable enough when they get here that they want to explore the broader world. Right now, too many people come and leave within 20 minutes.

OK, very cool, Forseti! I'm so glad it is that way! And I appreciate your explaining all this.

Again, I have not accused you of a grand conspiracy, or of being sinister (or even asked for a screenshot). I have simply asked questions, and been appreciative of getting timely answers.

I agree - I don't think people are going to be confused by the "shopping" button at all. They are going to think that is the shopping, but then, soon enough, will figure out that that is only part of the shopping.

coco

By default, the window opens with the All tab in front. After that, you can click on any tab you want.

Right now, the tabbed search window is the exact same one from LL's viewer, just recolored to match the OnRez theme. I'd imagine it will probably change in the future (for the better), but I have no idea when or how.



Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't know the answers to these questions. As Forsetti said, the solutions department (which includes the creative team of which I'm a part) is very separate from the software department. We try to be as communicative as we can be internally as a company, but practically speaking we're all way too busy with our own work ever to know a whole lot about what people in other departments are doing or planning at any given time. Sorry I don't have more info.




You're right. I wasn't trying to imply that my results indicated anything scientific. I was just using my own experience (the only real information I have) to infer that corporate presence doesn't automatically have to mean our own sales go down. Perhaps it wasn't the best way to make the point.

In any case, as you say, there's no way to tell. And with that being how it is, I see little point in making assumptions. That's probably what I should have said in the first place.


Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were. The whole "at best / at worst" part was just meant to illustrate the extremes of how your point could be interpreted. Your actual meaning, I'm sure, was somewhere in between, probably much more towards the "at best" side than the "at worst" side.



I really don't see it that way. The way I look at it, companies are figuring out that the world is changing. The entertainment industry in particular is struggling to come to grips with the fact that the days of beaming media AT people are numbered. They realize the future is about interactivity and about building communities, not just about sitting back and watching programming anymore, and that has many companies scrambling to try to evolve quickly enough not to get left behind. CBS and others like them are leading the pack on this right now. The rest will either catch up or they'll go away.

We who are on the cutting edge (and that includes all users of virtual worlds, not just development companies) have a tremendous opportunity to help shape the future of entertainment, which will in turn serve to shape the future of everything else. Every industry depends first and foremost on communications, after all. As goes communication goes the world.



I would tend to doubt that the presence of Pontiac in SL has in any way harmed the in-world auto industry. It might have put a damper on those illegally using Pontiac's trademarks, of whom I'm sure there were probably more than a few, but those people shouldn't have been doing that anyway. I'm sure those with their own brands, creating their own designs, are doing just as well as they ever were.

Competition is always good for business. In my own RL business, I always made it a point with every customer to say as many good things about my competitors as I possibly could. I always wanted them to be as educated as they could possibly be. My philosophy was always "hey, any fool can see that what I have to offer is the better, so every good point I make about the competition elevates me just that much more."

I've always run my SL business the same way. For example, when I started selling my sci fi avatars and uniforms 3 or 4 years ago, I was, as far as I know, the only person in SL doing that. Nowadays, there are hundreds of people selling similar items. Many people charge less for theirs than I do for mine, and some even give them away free. Some people make really good stuff; others make junk. It's all in there. Regardless, I still sell just as much as I ever did. The world is just too big for anyone else's sales (or freebies) to take away from mine, and it always will be.


Were such splintering to happen, yeah, that would probably be bad. I don't think it will though. I think everyone is smart enough to realize that allowing that to happen would not be a good thing.

As for the orientation spots, believe me, building orientation areas is can be quite a pain in the butt. There's not just the actual in-world build to worry about, but also registration portals, maintenance, greeting, and all kinds of things that I don't care to list. If you really want to do all that work, you can talk to LL about setting it up, just like every other company who's currently building orientations has. The only "chosen" people are the ones who chose themselves.


I'm sorry you think it has a negative effect. I don't see it myself.



I didn't say you were "against progress". I was making a statement about the wisdom of embracing change. Sure, we can differ on the direction think things should go in; that's great. What's problematic is when the prospect of change itself is automatically viewed as bad, which unfortunately is what far too many people do here.


It might, but I don't think that's what's happening here. As I see it, a certain type of change IS happening, and certain people see fit to complain about while others are excited about it, and stll others don't care one way or the other. In other words, it's business as usual on Planet Earth.


I would disagree with that. The only way big companies got so big in the first place was by NOT making the mistake of assuming they couldn't compete with those who were bigger at the time. Sony started out as a failed rice cooker manufacturer, for crying out loud. Apple was two guys in a garage. Motorola was a couple of buddies making car radios by hand. Anshe Chung was an escort (if I remember correctly).

The only difference between those guys and all the others who could have become them but didn't is the fact that they had the persistence to make it work. Any one of them easily could have concluded that they could never succeed in the face of the bigger companies of their day who may well have had interests in competing with them. All of them persisted anyway, and now the companies they started are bigger than anyone could have imagined.


I don't know that it's the best thing for everyone, but it was the best thing for me. I had a nice long run in my previous sales & marketing business, but even though I was good at it, it was never really me. This job is me.

I don't think it would be a fit for most people though. Not everyone would be okay with having to meet crazy deadlines, for example, which we have to do all the time. As with anything else, doing this for a living takes a certain type of person. I love it, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone.


Again, I disagree. I really can't envision a scenario where someone would find themselves unable to succeed unless they decided to give up.



I would hope for that too. The unpleasant fact though is that most businesses go out of business. It's always been that way in RL, and I see no reason why SL would be any different. Running a business is hard. It takes a certain type of drive and discipline which most people sadly do not possess.

What I've come to know, having been a business owner for almost my entire adult life, and having watched a great many colleagues succeed and fail along the way, is that there are two primary differences between those who do well in business and those who don't. The first is the persistence I already mentioned. The second is a specific sense of responsibility. In my experience, without exception, those who consistently blame external forces for the obstacles they encounter are the ones who inevitably go out of business. Those who blame themselves no matter what for both their successes and their failures always end up doing well in the end.

That's why when people say things like "we can't hope to compete with the big corporations with all their money and all their advertising and all their unlimited resources", I usually try to squash that thought as best I can. People don't seem to understand how much damage they're doing to themselves when they start thinking that way. Those who take the attitude of "How can I alter my business model to remain competitive in spite of stiff competition" will be the ones who last. The others will disappear, unfortunately.



No it's not all fabulous, but I do believe lemonade can always be made from even the sourest of lemons.


That would be unfortunate, yes. I'd like to think that we're all working hard to ensure that it doesn't turn out that way. I think we all have enough invested at this point that whatever happens, it's pretty unlikely that SL could ever become something most people don't like.


No, I don't have to admit that at all. I've never once gotten the sense that LL has ever been in any way disingenuous, or that they ever tried to pretend they were something other than exactly what they are.

Tell me, what was the "one thing" think they started as, and what was the "something else" you think they sold themselves as?

The only change I see between Philip's notion of "back then" and now is that LL no longer has to do things actively to try to force SL to be fun. It's taken on a life of its own by this point, so it no longer needs that kind of help. You and I and everyone else here make it fun all on our own. LL doesn't need to be concerned with that anymore.



Sure you do. I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise. Sorry if that's how you took it.


Anything's a possibility. I find it highly unlikely though.

What I do see as likely is that there will be a change in the kind of people that make up the majority of the population. Right now, SL is mostly populated by people like you and me. As I've said a few times lately on the forums, we are pretty different from the general public when it comes to this whole virtual world thing. We're here, among other reasons, to create. The rest of the world, when they arrive, will come for different reasons. Otherwise, they'd already be here.

The actual number of "us" won't diminish, but "we" will become a small minority. When that happens, it will be open season for everyone of "us" (including corporations and individual content creators alike) to best figure out how to offer a compelling experience to the masses. While it's maybe slightly a little sad that some of "our" existing culture may be lost amidst the giant sea of "them", I really can't wait for "them" to get here. SL should be for the whole world, not just for people like us.


I would hope for co-existence, not that either side would go away, and I firmly believe that that's how it will be. You're right that strictly speaking, it could go either way. No one can predict the future. We all do have the power to create the future though, and some of us are working very hard to make sure as best we can that the future of SL is a bright one for all concerned, corporations, individuals, everyone.


How? Some people claim this all the time, but they never say how. Give me an example. How has SL ignored you? What is it they've done specifically to further the big bad corporate interests at your expense? I have yet to get an answer on that from anyone. Sorry, but this kind of thing is exactly what I mean when I talk about complaining and conspiracy theorizing.

It seems to me that kind of talk is no different form all the myths about the viewer that were stated at the beginning of this thread. One blogger who happens to be hellbent on starting rumors makes outlandish claims about spyware and nerfed classifieds and greed, and all of a sudden half the forum is going "OMG! I'm not touching that viewer. It sounds downright evil." And much of the other half, rather than going straight to the source and just asking, goes "Well, I don't know if that's true, but I heard...."

Imagine if I hadn't happened upon this thread and alerted Forsetti to it. Those rumors and myths would still be flying around at this very moment, and half the people would still be thinking "ESC is a no good, greedy bunch of bastards" because of it. All it took was a little dose of truth to shut all that down though, and now we're having a much more productive and enjoyable conversation.

I really think the same thing happens in all these "Linden Lab doesn't care" and "Linden Lab is greedy" and "Linden Lab is incompetent" types of discussions. Someone writes prolificially and convincingly about something bad, based entirely on emotion-based assumption rather than fact, and then half the people who read it believe every word, and nobody bothers to just alert the right person at LL to whatever the problem is to get it resolved.

I'll grant you that finding the right person isn't always easy, and that LL certainly has its share of communications problems. That doesn't mean they don't care though. I don't want to make excuses for them, but the reality, whether any of us like it or not, is that they're a very small company, made up of VERY human beings, and they do the best they know how. Could they do better? Sure. So could all of us.

As far as I'm concerned, the important thing is that their hearts are in the right place. I've been to Linden Lab. I've met many Lindens. And with every one of them I meet, I'm continually amazed at just how passionate they all are about what they're doing. This is as true of the CEO as it is of the receptionist. From top to bottom, that company is chock full of the some of the finest folks you'll ever meet.

So again, I ask you -- no, I defy you -- to show me anything close to a concrete example illustrating just how LL doesn't care about its customers, or how they're somehow catering to corporations over individuals.



So have I.

Thanks for the answers that you have!

The rest of your post is very well thought-out, and quite inspirational, though I disagree with much of your analysis. I will indulge in a boring and way too long-winded answer!


Well, yes to all that. But basically, they are here in our back yard doing what we are doing, for entirely different purposes, and ultimately, I'm afraid, will do more and more of it. That, to me, isn't a wonderful thing. May be good for THEM, not so much for me. I already have TV, the movies, Pontiac cars, etc. I would like SL to be about us - as producers, residents, and players; not us as consumers of real-world stuff, sitting in front of yet another place to consume all that same stuff.


Well, we don't know, and we can't tell. Nor can we tell if they would be doing better without Pontiac's "competition." And if the corporations are here en masse, and start giving away the whole store, as it were, then it would be much harder for the regular person to keep on selling, wouldn't you agree?


Well, you're very inspiring. (And I have always had the same attitude toward my customers as you do.)

But . . . there's competition, and there's something ludicrous, like . . . oh, how could I put it . . . like enormously wealthy people coming in and giving away what you are selling, right next door to you.

Let's say I am selling widgets in SL for 40 cents each, and I am using that money to cover my tier, and then some. I'm in competition with other individual people (or perhaps a few partnerships), also at their computers, selling similar widgets in SL that they themselves have made, on their own time, for 40 cents each, more or less. Also hoping to cover their tier, and then some.

Those people would be my competition.

Contrast me with, say, IBM. A company like IBM might come into SL, and also sell widgets, also for 40 cents, or maybe 30 cents. However, the advertising budget IBM is already working with to subsidize their widget venture (just using IBM as an example; I don't think they actually sell ANYTHING) includes probably all of us widget maker's annual real-life income put together, times 100.

IBM - or Pontiac - doesn't pay any more for their tier than I do. They pay no more for classified ads than I do. They don't even do their own work - their hire others to do it, for six figures. In fact, they don't even care what their widgets sell for, because the sales are totally beside the point!

They are here as advertisers for goods that exist in the real world. We are here to sell items we make for use in SL only.

This is not "competition;" it's apples versus oranges. Even if it were apples versus apples (which it isn't at all), it would be enormous, city-size apples, competing with tiny little crabapples!

Now, you're right, this sort of thing could ultimately "improve" things, in a sense.

I have no doubt that all the money these companies have in their advertising budgets could buy the best of everything, and do everything in a bigger way than any of us possibly could, and certainly could buy up all the classified ads, plaster everything everywhere, sell everything cheaper than we do (or give it away), etc., so on, and so forth, without it making a DINT in their pockets. It's all just advertising.

(And I don't believe they will always stay so sensitive to our presence.)

That could ultimately make everything very professional, couldn't it? That would be an improvement of sorts. We will have CBS and everybody else here giving us cars and clothes and providing our entertainment.

I am trying to point out, I don't particularly want that from SL. I like REGULAR people's stuff, not slick, corporate stuff. I get lots of that in the rest of the real world. I'm not here because I want to be sold a real-life car.

Another analogy: A crafts fair, if you will. We are all at a crafts fair, happily selling our goods to the public. (Which, for the sake of this argument, we will assume is as good as any manufactured items.)

In comes Ethan Allen furniture, and sets up shop in four stalls at one end. Along comes Liz Claibourne with a full range of clothing in four stalls at the other end. Tiffany's then opens a large booth in the middle. Etc. All with a flourish of fanfare in the real-world national media, with their already giant name brands. Hyped on their real-world web sites, etc.

They sell their items for less than ours, or give them away (and our items are as good as theirs, remember). Well, it would no longer be a crafts fair at all, would it. We might get a little dejected at the big splash these companies are making at our fair, plus they don't have to worry about expenses or labor, and actually give away the stuff we would charge for!

So you can see the whole ambiance of the thing is entirely different. It is no longer a crafts fair. Few people would get enthusiastic about participating in a crafts fair if they knew they would be competing with the big boys, who don't even care if they make any money at it.

(Those big boys should actually be SPONSORS, subsidizing the fair, and putting up advertising banners, not booths, especially not jostling for sales along with the crafters, and especially not for sales they don't even care about.)

AND - if I were a customer and wanted to be in the mall I would be there, and not at the crafts fair! So that is what I think people mean when they say they don't like the real-life businesses and that ambiance coming into SL, or at least not too much of it.

And that's what I mean by it isn't really competition, for those of us who make and sell things. Now I don't think the scenario of a corporate-dominated SL is really or necessarily going to come to pass (for a variety of reasons), or at least not anytime soon. But it is certainly a possibility. I can easily see SL becoming that sort of place.

So, no, I don't view Coldwell Banker as my competition, and never would in a million years. How could they be? I'm one person in a house; I'm not here advertising some multi-million dollar firm, while incidentally directly competing with others in the SL housing market. (Fortunately, their stuff isn't very good.)

Moreover, I have no desire to become Coldwell Banker, or to compete with them. I have a desire to make widgets in SL.


I agree that one should listen to one's own drummer, and one's own creative muse. Or, as swimmer Donna DeVarona (sp?) once advised for winning races, don't look around to see how the other swimmers are doing; just keep on swimming.

But I really don't think you can say that taking over the entertainment in SL (such as it is), and offering merchandise at lower prices than content creators, would not, if done on a large enough scale, have a strong effect on the whole of SL.


I believe you can apply for this now, but that originally, it was chosen people.


Like I said, this is very inspirational. But I really don't think it will cut much mustard if big companies start taking over all the things we used to provide, as just part of their real-world advertising campaign.

(Anshe isn't a very good example here, because she is still providing widgets for video games - she isn't trying to make and market real-world cars and clothes and using SL to advertise them. Even though she is large and has employees, she is still an example of a resident, doing in-world business, now in several worlds.)


I will have my persistance, never fear, on my own small scale, until it is no longer rewarding in some way to do so, should that day come. But I'm not blind to this sea change, and can foresee a day when it would might be rather silly to continue, and I would look for an alternate world, which would offer something more like what SL used to be.

I don't believe individuals can compete, in general, with huge corporations with deep pockets. As I said, not everyone would quit trying, and I certainly have no intentions of quitting, OR of "losing."

On the other hand, just as I would not purposely join a world dominated by big corporations in order to make and sell my widgets, by the same token, if it became that, I simply might not be interested in continuing in it.

What remains to be seen is how attractive such a hypothetically corporate-dominated SL would be to everyone else, including the revolving-door tourists. Sometimes I think LL tries to be all things to all people, and thus spreads themselves too thin. It seems like quite the gamble to me for them to treat advertising corporations exactly the same as in-world residents, and think that will fly for long.

I guess I think one group will ultimately win. I'm hoping its us, not the corporations.


They started as a sort of open-ended game for regular people, of creation and cooperation, and became this real world business thing.

Originally, SL was marketed as much more of a game. Since I've been here, they've been systematically taking anything game-like out of it, including a whole lot of the fun. I think they think this makes them more legitimate or something.

One of the lessons I have learned in my professional life is people like things to be about them. (The most skillful presentations make it at least look like it is about them, like reality shows; sitcoms people identify with; and the new CBS/CSI thing.) People just aren't all that into being the passive audience for advertisers. People like to be the star.

When Philip said they had to make things fun in the beginning to get enough people in, but it no longer had to be fun, that was a big tip-off to me. I think we built the world, and populated it, just so they could sell it to the others they were really interested in. I don't agree that it's because we supposedly can make our own fun now. (We always could!) In fact, I think it has actually BECOME less fun, and substantially so.

But a lot of people came here for themselves, to HAVE fun. Now it's too about the corporations, and looking at their stuff.


Agreed. (However, they won't stay here unless SL starts working better.)


I can wait. When I think of the "whole world," I think of Germany, Brazil, you name it. I love that aspect of it.

I DON'T think of the "whole world" as corporations. I really don't care about the corporations of Germany and Brazil. I care about individual people of Germany and Brazil, and their individual creativity.

It's just my personal preference. Along with the strongly held conviction that once things turn into Advertising World enough, real people won't hang around, except as tourists. NOT that I expect that scenario to play out. But - maybe I can put it this way: I come here for a neighborhood, for people. A community, with their craft fair. To admire their things. To put my own things in the fair. Created by the users, not by the corporations.

Not to go shopping in a real-world mall, or drive along a street full of car dealerships. It's just a different thing. I generally don't make friends, and settle down in, a mall. I think in such a scenario, people would come in with their friends, and go OUT with their friends, to where they REALLY live, just as they do in real life.


Well, if we can't get rid of them, then I'm hoping for co-existance, too! I don't particularly want the future of SL to be a bright one for corporations, sorry. I would look for another world, one that is more fun, in the way SL was when I first joined. Just a personal preference, but not one that I am alone in having, I think.


They TRY. They really do. They are, for the most part, very nice and caring people. And I'm not talking about how they've ignored *me*, but rather, that they have turned from the residents, and focused more on corporate needs.

But if you want examples, they are numerous: Shutting down live help; trimming the forums (we aren't supposed to be having this discussion! lol); making support hard to reach; invisibling themselves in world (though that's certainly understandable, there should be a better way!); cutting stipends; not paying much attention to what people say they want or don't want; etc. All the frustrations that have grown. All of which went hand in hand with free and open registrations, which wwas also done largely for the corporate entities.

Devoting part of their staff (that we pay for) to helping ESC with their project is another example. Obviously, they think this is good for SL, and in the long run, good for us, and many would agree. I'm not disagreeing that the idea of getting more residents is worth pursuing. But it is an example of how their focus has shifted.


Well, I think it's great that ESC has decided to answer resident questions. But you know, during the Sheepbot debacle (which I wasn't even that personally interested in, as an issue), I collated the questions people had, and presented them - multiple times - for answering, and got little for my efforts but personal put-downs.

For whatever reasons the Sheep have decided to start cluing us in to what WILL affect us, I'm grateful. But it wasn't exactly easy, and I took some beating for asking straightforward questions.

I might also point out that a little dose of truth was not forthcoming during that go-round, to an almost absurd degree; and that were it not for various loud voices demanding answers on blogs and so forth this time, we might not be getting any at all now! If you go by what answers we got during the Sheepbot discussions.

I personally think lots of people are secretly grateful that someone dares to bring up these various issues they might not have thought of, on their blog, and I applaud the Sheep for giving timely and DIRECT answers this go-around.


As I said above, I, too, think they care and are nice people, and are spread thin, probably too thin. But I do think they are catering to corporations at the cost of regular residents right now. Just my observation.

Charging big corporations the same as regular residents, to advertise outside goods on the grid, while giving away what we make as mere tokens, is one giant, glaring example of that.

Anyway, either way it goes, or whatever way it goes, is fine by me. If it gets too corporate, I will just go someplace that meets my needs better. I don't think that LL can have it all, and be all things to all entities, at once, at the same place, without losing something, and having one or the other come out on top. And if all those people who want to come in and be entertained by CBS and Pontiac are really out there, then who am I to stop it?

SORRY FOR HAVING GONE ON SO LONG. Something about intelligent, impassioned posts like yours proves irresistably pleasant and causes me to carry on far too long! (But this is the last one, I promise!)

coco

Do a Map search for "CSI" The day before yesterday there were 13 entries, now about 400. I think they'll cover more than 190 sims easily.

I'll be not so secret and say thanks to both of you for the discussion. My concerns are along the lines of Coco's, but from the point of view of the non creating masses alluded to. In RL I am not a big fan of the smothering MegaCorps, I f I can patronize a s smaller business, even if I pay a bit more I try to. I'd do the same in SL. I'd buy Coco's widgets for $40L before I bought IBM's for $20L. If the RL's are on their own sims, where they can be avaoided fine with me. But I don't want too walk down a Street on the Mainland and see row after row of RL businesses, trying to get me to buy the crap they sell in RL.

Life is like riding the bus, it requires change. But like Coco said change for change sake is not always a good thing, nor does not liking the direction of a change make you afraid of it.. I think LL ignores us in that they are changing SL, their right of course wholeslaelly and forcing us to adapt, whereas I think it should change and evolve in conjunction with the residents in a more symbiotic way, spotting trends and listening to opinions.

In the end I will be one of those who will try to go about my SL unaffected by these elements. Until it becomes impossible. Then I'll go do something else. Thanks again to both of you for managing to keep this discussion interesting, informative, and inhostile.

Cocoa, I have posted a screenshot to make things clearer (I hope). This is what you see if you type in "cottages" into the search bar:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2048/1634579947_bdd925385a_o.jpg


Cocoa, on a personal note, I regretted being short with you when the Sheeplabs search thing came out. It was not my intention to have that highly-in-development "product" be released to the public, when it really needed more testing and thinking. However, it *was* placed out in public and of course the reaction landed in my lap. Most people were positive but there was a decidedly negative quarter. I got upset when I thought you were making highly negative assumptions about our characters. You then asked legitimate questions but I needed time to discuss our policies internally and with our lawyers. We decided to shut down the search test site, obviously, while we continue to work and experiment.

I'm not really interested in working in secrecy when it is not required for strategic or competitive reasons, and the only reason why I haven't shown a screenshot before now was that the text colors were messed up.

this is... fascinating, really.

but is anybody going to actually answer my question about the actual original supposed topic of this thread? mmmm.. didn't think so.

yes SL folks will be able to get to the CSI experience, wear the HUD, and participate. Using the OnRez viewer that we'll put up at http://viewer.onrez.com might be wise because that is hooked into the load balancing system. There will be a webpage that will have information (and take new SLers through a reg portal). I'll blog it on the OnRez blog next week, and I'm pretty sure it will be available through the CBS website.

I believe that Anthony Zuiker will be reading submissions to one of the games, yes. I'm not close enough to that part of the project to give details though. If we're not talking OnRez I my knowledge starts to get thin right now!

Sorry, Bloodsong. I didn't notice your first post. I was so wrapped up in the long discussion I was having with others that your short, simple, and to-the-point post slipped totally under my radar. It wasn't my intention to ignore you or anyone else.

That having been said, I now must say I'm sorry, but I don't know the answers to your questions. So you know, my involvement with the CSI project has been rather minimal, as I was working on several other projects during most of its development. I only built a very small handful of assets for it. I haven't even had time to read the design doc even to know how the game actually works, if you can believe it, hehehe.

I think Forsetti provided what you wanted to know, but if I find out any additional details, I'll post them. I hope you can appreciate that most people in company don't make a point of frequenting these forums, so getting specific details here on any particular thing might always be a round-about process. I happen to like spending a portion of what little free time I have on the forums, but it's not realistic to expect that many other people would. Everyone has different likes and dislikes, and we're all incredibly busy.


Coco, Colette, I think we'll just have to agree that our outlooks are different. It's been a really great discussion, but as you pointed out, Coco, our posts are getting longer and longer with each volley, so we should probably tone it down.

This has been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had on the forums in a very long time. Part of me wants nothing more than just to let it continue to expand. There's a lot I would like to say in response to each an every point you both made in your last posts. I'd love to discuss them all at great length, in fact. Unfortunately, that wouldn't be practical, as I think we're all realizing.

If I can find a way to respond to either or both of your last posts without writing a novel, I will. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say I'll have to leave it with the far too cliche statement of we'll have to agree to disagree agreeably. I hope that's okay.

It really is too bad that people can't leave real life in real life, and simply enjoy their second one without the need to bring real world corporate branding into the mix. The more I think about it, and the more I read about it, the less I like this whole thing.

I suppose it's only a matter of time before the whole grid is ruined by this sort of foolishness.

Well, thats the plan.

That is why I cant see the argument that it would be the virtual worlders who cant mind their own business. Since the virtual worlders are only complaining.

The only ones doing anything to further their agenda would be the 3D web types.

I don't see the grid as being ruined, but I do think we are going to have to learn to share. I think there will always been large swaths of SL that are dedicated to immersion - but they are going to be on the private islands.

If I were a gambling woman (oh noes! Illegal!) I'd bet that (1) the mainland continues to decline in the face of oppressive advertising - mostly SL but some RL. The only relief will be controlled environments on the private islands. (2) advertising will end up introduced in the viewer and escapable only for Premium Accounts. Advertiser supported free services is the way the web has evolved (following the models set by radio and television) and it probably is coming our way as well.

We will never have the SL of 2004/2005 back again. All things on earth grow and change, that is the process of life.

Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.

-- Robert Frost

Gonna miss it.