Now a German Paedophile Expose in Second Life

I am far from a great mind, but thanks anyway, Mandy. Now that LL is globalizing it's operation, it perhaps isn't possible to adhere to the laws of one specific country. So someone has to figure out what rules are to apply.

I know I keep popping up here in resident chat - but now I suspect that being a Neko makes someone vulnerable to prosecution. A Neko is no more a "beast" than the model Verushka was in the 1960's when Helmut Newton(?) photographed her as a feline/tiger/leopard. I would welcome comments about how the police are going to prosecute someone for having sex with a minotaur or centaur.
By the way, I dont want to worry any of you, but I am sure that Resident Answers is being monitored as we type.

Hrm I actualy got started on SL because someone mentioned it was something like sims

Well it is sorta but I was looking for a non slash and dice pvp game where all the guys went around propositioning the female avatars and all the real world females were playing male avatars to avoid being propositioned, raped and gang banged. (The game I refer to is SWG by sony ^^)

You think SL is really that different? Its not.

I also have as yet to have any "virtual sex" in SL and it took me quite some time to see the "virtual sex" cause I was busy noticing sandboxes and learning to build chairs. People see what they want young horny guys will look for what they want in any game which is hot femal avatars! lol

Before Germany can enforce its laws, it must establish its jurisdiction to do so.

Germany has no jurisdiction over me. I'm not a citizen, I'm not on German soil, I haven't conducted business in Germany, I haven't injured a German citizen.

Germany may have some jurisdiction over Second Life. Linden Labs have no citizenship there (I guess), aren't on German soil, but they do transact business with Germans, who are in Germany when they transact that business.

So when it comes to me personally, I don't care about German laws.

Now Linden Labs probably should care about German laws. But whatever decisions Linden Labs makes to avoid liability in Germany really don't concern me directly. Linden Labs will make those decisions based on their best interests, and not mine. I'm not going to spend a lot of time thinking about what Linden Labs can do to protect themselves, because they don't pay me to do that.

You're not doing your argument any favors by using these kinds of generalizations that simply aren't true. Are some people going to be drawn into SL because of sensationalist stories about it in the press? Sure. Just like many are drawn in search of easy money because the press likes to write about that angle so much. The same kinds of stories have been written ad nauseum about MySpace being a haven for paedophiles. Do you think everyone who joins there is doing so because they're into paedophilia? Your logic about SL is no more credible. Governments and media make careers out of frightening luddites with tales of technological evil. Are you going to let YOUR freedoms be curtailed because some people lack the ability to be rational or objective? If so that's a much sadder commentary about you than it is about SL. I don't care what consenting adults do with each other, even if I think it's the sickest thing in the world. Their rights as consenting adults should always outweigh my individual comfort zones, and I'd fight on their behalf against those who think other people's freedoms should be restricted to conform to anyone's comfort zone but their own. Free and rational people should never let their freedoms be defined by sensationalists, fear mongers, or fundamentalists. The Dutch and German governments are out of line and out of their elements and they should be fought, not capitulated to.

And just to add another thought - the thought of entrapment and monitoring makes SL clearly a dangerous place for offenders but when will POLITICAL viewpoints also attract the attention of governments? Where will the line be drawn?
I have always been offended by child role play - which I agree should be banned. Many months ago I brought it to the attention of a help group I was involved in; but we felt nothing could be done from "our end". But if a person wants to be a fox or a rabbit (some Linden helpers are [or were] rabbit furries) it is really up to them. Is having sex with a furry or a stallion REALLY bestiality? It isnt a REAL dog/stallion/frog/starfish - it is a human in a costume. So please, any of you who are lawyers or police officials on line - not pseudo-police/scaremongers - please advise on what many of us are now simply confused about. I mean, I wear cute little horns sometimes - am I now bestial or simply ready for a wild night on Halloween or a costume party?
I suppose the day will come when "outting" an avitar will be just part of our lovely SL world. And I was worried about age verification ...

I am pretty sure if you AR someone acting sexual age play with a childlike avatar LL will take action. I know there was a lot of complaints from the people who roleplay children whether they where about the be banned ( when of course they wheren't actually doing anything wrong ).

As for the commit in real life point, this of course applies to things like fighting, guns etc. too...

This I think is the big concern over ageplay, is it illegal in SL - possibly, not sure there has been a legal ruling but definatly not something worth risking, however the big worry is does it propogate RL paedophiles. As such it SHOULD be banned.

OTOH most other activities are legal in most places in a Real Life context. There are strange laws ( most of which would get overlooked ) such as the consentual mutilation in the UK ( something I wasn't aware of and I live in the UK ) but in general it's fair to consider them actions between two consenting adults and as such legal.

My fellow Rock covered it. The papers and cable shows and the Limbaughs of the world can crucify SL simply by regurgitating this over and over.

The big bad news is that LL has not an iota of public relations savvy to counter it. Look at their PR crisis management of ANY of their missteps with us.

gah, will you quit going on about nekos?

there is nothing wrong with a human woman in spotted body paint wearing ears and a tail. And I say that because I run around like that myself

just as there's nothing wrong with someone wearing a cartoon mask on a human body running around with a tail.

It's not beastiality - having sex with an animal with no choice to say yes/no is utterly different from having sex with a human who happens to personally feel a kindred with a particular animal species in their personality but still has sex with only people - that's been going on since antiquity and well, as old as people been drawing cartoons on cave walls.

Agreed! I can't speak for other countries but the hypocrisy that comes out of our government and media on so called "Moral" issues is mind boggling. Talk about a haven for pedophiles..just visit Congress...

Hrm they are putting in AVS and abiding by the laws of the country that the servers are in and they are in looks like they are doing everything humanly possibly to remove the element of underaged people in adult areas.


I'm not sure how germany or any other country for that matter can force its own laws on another country about all they can do is block access from their end or if they want to get pissy about it maybe start a war or something but I dont think its something that military powers or even political powers are gonna want to take issue over I also highly doubt the UN is gonna want to start to boycot countries based on a computer simulation that adheres to the laws of its country of origin

I'm thinking that a lot of this stuff is "national enquirer" type news "woman has baby with 4 heads stuff while out dining with her husband and doesn't even notice"

The same logic could apply to child play. If you are referring to an adult in a child avatar, perhaps there is an issue, but not if it is a non sexual context as far as I am concerned. But if it is an adult avatar dressed in clothes associated with children, then it is just like any other costume.

adult avatars dressed up in an animal suit is not beastiality, no matter how you twist it

people do this stuff in real life too... its kinda cool, especially the body painted cat girls

I do find it odd that the US finds paedophiles getting together to simulated their perversions more acceptable than people using their own money to gamble.

If it's acceptable for adult avs to have sex with child avs, surely that's opening the doors and shouting here is a haven for paedophiles to find like minded and role play, while transfering real life material and ideas.

I assume the German arrest involved more than just SL, maybe caught while monitoring other activities.

Should sexual ageplay only be stopped if a US paedophile ring was caught and found to be using SL to get together, or would the sexual ageplay still be acceptable as the US at present has no laws against animated child sex? Where should the line be drawn, or should everything be allowed?

Do we really know what goes on in SL, or do we only know what we have personally encountered? Maybe LL and governments are the only ones who really know, excluding those involved, hence the recent changes going on. I wonder if those who are on sex offenders registers will be flagged if they verify themselves.

This is going over old ground again.

Ultimately it will be the governing bodies that reside in each country that may decide whether their residents can 'play' in Second Life. Should Second Life be deemed a sex haven for depravity, they can make sure its residents never get connected to the Second Life servers, unless they are out of the jurastiction borders. Banning connection to a internet server is one of the cards that any law enforcement, or goverment body can do without notice and incredibily easily.

It won't take much bad press (and they are good at that) in ignoring the many benefits of Second Life for so many users, before Governments start a cascade action that could lead the the failure of Second Life.

It's your world, their imagination!!

Have you seen the slimy state of the American press? The National Enquirer is about the only paper that wouldn't cover it.

Point of clarification: Sexual ageplay, itself, is not banned. The advertising and promotion of such is. There have also been additional restrictions put on all child avatars (regardless of any participation in sexual ageplay) regarding proof of real age.

As to the article at hand:

Kitty Nooij, who is in charge of the sex offences portfolio at the prosecutor's office in the Netherlands, told Dutch news show Netwerk that she will try to bring cases to court so precedents can be set.

This sounds more than challenging, short of Kitty Nooij (does dat sound like an SL name or what?) setting up such scenarios. This will also require some interesting (and I mean "interesting" in the form of the ol' curse about "interesting times" issues about the virtual and the real that could, conceivably, affect all child avvies and, yes, other forms of sexual and non-sexual conduct in world versus local jurisdictions in a global context.

It also sounds like Kitty Nooji doesn't know a thing dat she's talking about.

Linden Lab's Second Life is an online digital world with almost three million "residents" claimed by the company. Some areas of Second Life allow adult members to have virtual sex with others who pretend to be children.

This is seriously poorly written. Which areas are these? How many of these "three million" [sic.] are a part of such? How widespread is this? Who fact-checked this, and who provided this information?

Experts, such as psychologist Jos Buschman of the Van Mesdag clinic in Groningen, say Second Life is "by definition a school for paedophiles", despite the fact that adult members like to roleplay as children. Second Life requires all players to be adults.

Also very poor work. One would get the idea from this that Second Life is little more than child sex heaven. I wonder exactly how much Jos Buschman even knows of Second Life? Are Buschman and Nooij the netherlands equivalent of Fred Phelps? Frankly, how legitimate is this Jos Buschman that he can make such an ill-considered statement?

Discussions about virtual child porn in Second Life already started three years ago with the introduction of an avatar called Sasami Wishbringer, who has the body of an eight year-old. Lately, there are more serious reports about adult players with child avatars soliciting (paid) sex.

The mention os Sasami Wishbringer, as well as the above material, tells me that the Register copped much of their piece from the SL Herald. Also, saying "more serious reports" is like saying nothing. Cite them or shush.

FWIW, and from what I've seen *as* a child avvie: there are a handful of people who are into dat kinda ting. There have been places dat cater to it in SL, though most of them were kinda places where all sorts of kinky stuff was welcome (for a price) and dat was jes one possibility on their menu.

The biggest problems from it is in the *perception* that there is more than there is, causing (a) idiot newbies deciding to play vigilante againt kid avvies because they mistakenly assume were all pedophiles, (b) idiot newbies who think that being a child escort is some weird 'path to SL riches' thanks to articles like the above, and (c) moronic lawmakers, ill-conceived news articles, and "concerned citizens" making it harder for those of us in the majority of child avatars to simply enjoy our Second Lives.

Mari

I find it odd that hard core drugs are actualy considered legal in a certain country which shall remain nameless in europe but at the same time people are abhored by and finding it totaly unacceptable for legal things to take place like adults creating fantasy avatars in a computer simulation and busy knocking the laws of countries that they are probably not living in.

Herion and cocaine kills too yet its allowed in this country which shall remain nameless. Go figure each country has its own idiosyncracies.

Where I Live its illegal to walk down a certain street on a sunday and eat ice cream the law exists its stupid but its there. There are a lot of peculiar things that go on like getting arresting for spitting in a subway in other countries perhaps. LIfe happens it never usually makes sense ..

/shrug

The main concern is not us, the regular users, but the bad PR effect the big RL companies fear. So LL are eager to please the ones with the big wallets. My personal opinion is that there is a limit to what is tolerable, but obviously my opinion, as well as yours, does not count in this.

One of the arguments appeared to be that since rape is illegal in RL, simulated rape should be disallowed in SL. I fail to see the difference between murder and rape, both are equally ugly crimes. I did not propose it should be a rule, nor did I say it was justification for breaking any laws, I simply pointed out that aspect of the argument. Were I doing either I would make that clear in my post. Personally, so long as no minors are involved, all parties involved are consenting and no actual laws are being broken (which actually covers my first qualifier I guess), I have no problem with, nor care about, what peeps get up to.

I try not to whenever possible it gives me hives

Thats not really true.

The supreme court makes rulings on these things based on freedom of speech rules.

Its not that US finds things more or less acceptable. Its more a case of those who set up our governement setting up a system where the rights of a minority are protected from the will of the majority or whim of our government.

while it produces seemingly strange things like this - Its better for Americans to have these protections limiting our goverment - than the alternative.

Germany's History is a perfect example of what can happen when the people arent protected for the abuses of their government.

Exactly my point. And adult avatars dressed in children's clothes is not pedophilia. In my opinion.

If it were then I know an awful lot of nightclubs in RL that would be in an awful lot of trouble for running "School Discos"

Hehe I have to put in my two cents worth Hypathia - meow and purrrrr
It annoys people.
I like spots more than stripes.