Design the new Forums!!

This

I really don't disagree with you, Nika.

It's not so much what they are doing as how they are doing it. I don't diagree with what you say here for the most part. Like Katheryne said WE may recognize what SL is and should be, I don't think LL. at least om higer levels does. I do think there is still a "Killer Business App" pipe dream floating around out there.

But in any case, I am wary of even the slightest corporate contamination. I don't hold Corporate America in very high regard, in my opinion, pretty much anything of value or of a creative nature usually turns to shit when they touch it. I also don't think going public is necessarily a good thing either. With the influx of cash come a lot of stockholders to keep happy, which translate into even more people who don't understand what SL is, and are only looking at bottoms lines.

My reaction to SL Answers, after giving it a fair trial, after trying to participate:

1. Since I read the blogs in an RSS viewer, I had never visited the blog site itself, and I was astonished at how hard-to-read it is. This of course carries over into SL Answers. I could not use the site for more than five minutes without getting a headache, and I have perfect vision.

2. The site is very difficult to navigate. I had to set multiple bookmarks in order to find specific pages. The suggestion box is especially difficult to find.

3. The polls don't work. And the fact that they are stuck in the overwhelmingly positive direction is incredibly irritating.

4. The software doesn't have "bugs" - it is the wrong software.

5. The idea that the person asking the question can set a question "answered" or determine which answers are "useful" is of doubtful value. Some questions are never "answered" - they are points of discussion. For example, "How do you create clothes?" - not a simple question with two "helpful" answers.

Also, I asked two questions in which distinctly UNHELPFUL answers were marked "helpful" - not by me.

6. This move takes apart a community. I can understand that LL doesn't get that. They aren't here. It's too bad, but the sterile, denatured, over-simplified world of SL Answers is not going to provide a new home for this community.

7. I won't use it.

((BTW - I *did* give this feedback in the appropriate place on SL Answers.))

I just want to add - I wish that LL would say WHY they want to make this change. What are they trying to fix? What is it that they don't like about these forums?

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Will the single system include the online shopping system? If so, I'd advise xtreetsl vendors to start working on and using alternate distribution systems now.

Will the single system replace the current Second Life Wiki, leaving the existing wiki orphaned, as it will do to these forums?

Will the single system replace the pjira?

Also, Blue appears to be suggesting that people who are pessimistic should lie or withhold the truth in order to deceive others into wasting their time on the slim chance of furthering the pessimist's goals. I do not agree with that. Not spending time and effort on actions with a low chance of payoff frees that time and effort for actions with a higher probability of success. Lying and withholding your real views to manipulate others on matters like this just sounds wrong to me.

I was also unhappy with this feature. Every reply, spam or not, marks the question as Possibly Answered and I felt like I had to keep replying to make sure the question stayed visible.

That and the one question I asked was something that could really only be answered by LL yet they never even replied with a "needs support ticket."

I still don't understand why we need this new software, especially if it's not something that LL is going to use.

I totally agree Suezanne, especially the last paragraph, I was going to reply to Blue's post but thought whats the point, as LL seems now definitely not to listen and all they offer are platitudes to the masses as has been seem with the ongoing Adult fiasco.

Trust is something that is of issue to me and LL has lost my trust by not being honest about things and treating the customer base like idiots and I am sure my thoughts are not alone in this matter, be it the forums, openspaces, the Land expo clampdown on someone and the list goes on.

For a company that is involved with communications, they (LL) sure seem to have forgotten the meaning of the word on several levels.

Just my opinion though

TY again for responding to some of the posts here, Blue..

Wasn't really talking about blogs, though. Blogs are LL making some statement and us being told that we can reply on-topic to that statement. This is not an improvement in communications (edit: though it does have it's place and is good to see).

The interesting bit on that old forum thread I referenced, dunno if you read that or not, was sorta summed up on post 3. The context: somebody trying to flame the old Linden Answers forum, Kelly Linden musing on how to make the forums work better, then this...

There's also some other posts in there talking about more details but that's the gist of it. You could have this up and running TODAY. TODAY!

You wouldn't have to fight with new & buggy software. You wouldn't lose the existing content here. You wouldn't piss off people here by forcing them to move to some new system. It would, at least on my part, get you a lot of resident cred for engaging more with residents instead of the ongoing trend of putting more and more distance between LL and residents.

Why not just give it a try for a month or so? If nothing else, it'd shut me up and that's gotta be worth something.


I have yet to see any options on cnet or intel that look like they're worth the amount of pain LL is inflicting. Maybe you could point a couple of the nicer ones out?


Read only is the same as dead.

Ask LL support how many residents search before they add a ticket or do the live chat stuff. People don't want to fight search for their answer, they just want to get the damn answer and get back to whatever they were doing.

Lord....No point in replying to Blue because LL doesn't know the meaning of the word communicate? I respectfully suggest that you are in a self-defeating irony-loop.

Suez....You can find me suggesting that people "hold LL's feet to the fire" and continue to be "critical, constructively" in umpteen different comments, forum posts, my office hour etc etc...You will not, however, find me suggesting that people should lie.

If one really cares about the community, they will respect it enough to avoid trying to convince other people not to contribute, critically or otherwise. And I don't say that because I have some sinister plan to waste people's minutes in fruitless protest. That's creepy. If you don't want to participate, that's definitely an option. "Choose your battles" is good advice. Telling other people not to participate, however, shows a lack of respect for their ability to make the same judgment call.

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I was actually invited to participate here to talk about the forums but it looks like I've overstayed my welcome ^_^; Many thanks to those who've chosen to contribute. Your feedback will be part of the internal discussion. Pleeeease feel free to visit my office hour in Grasmere, Wednesdays at 4 SLTime. I honestly would love to see you there.

You have definitely not overstayed your welcome here, Blue!

It's just difficult to see the discussion seeming to actually, finally happen then hear you say that you WILL be moving to a single system. That sounds a lot like LL asking again for feedback but acknowledging that it's not going to be taken.

/me hopes you'll give it a bit more of a chance here.

QFT.

It is not you personally, Blue, but the policy being implemented by LL with only you to stand here and effectively say "noted." With as much feedback as has already been given, it is patently clear that LL does not intend to change its course of action in any meaningful way and keep vBulletin, especially since we know how extensible vBulletin already is (see SL Universe).

These forums are hobbled because LL chose to hobble them, and not update the software. The community, however, survives, but will become a shadow of itself once the transition is complete.

So, while we appreciate the time and engagement that you personally put in, Blue, we already know it's largely for naught, and that makes us sad/angry/dejected/dispassionate about the whole thing.

Blue, gotta challenge for you. Update the vBulletin forums and turn on the functionality we used to enjoy. Then if we complain, swap over to the new stuff. But give updating the existing forums a chance, please?

You might have been able to say that anywhere else but here. You really need to think very hard about this. Suezzanne, Sindy, Lord, myself and many, many others are here day in and day out answering questions and have been doing so for YEARS. If we did not love the community then we would not be here. If LL loved the community then they would have kept a presence here, would have brought in new Res Mods when they sent out the call for new ones at the end of last year and would have upgraded the forum 3 years ago. So it is a really, really low blow and totally inaccurate to state that we do not care about the community.

Anytime you want to pop in and help you are welcome to stop off in the Scripting Forum where we receive and answer a flood of questions everyday. Chance would more then welcome help over in Textures and others in Animations etc. Or just answer a noob question here every now and then. If YOU really cared about the community then you wouldn't run off saying that you had overstayed your welcome at the first sign of everyone not oohing and ahhing that a Linden was here in the forum and stating that they were going to bless us with a forum upgrade.

Heh - I was also thinking about a challange for LL earlier today..

Pick 20 (or 10 or 50 or some number) random support type questions then, under a secret alt's name, post them here and in the new Answers stuff and as support tickets. No offense to the support Lindens but I think these forums here would clearly get the job done most quickly - we'd totally spank 'em.

I also think that what Blue is most interested in here is what things we think should be mandatory for new forums software. Maybe a separate thread would be appropriate?

>.< We broke the Linden! See, this is why they don't let us have nice things!

I'll loop back to this thread to gather up more suggestions for LL's new forums, and will post a link to the resulting list for those interested to review.

Thanks for your ideas so far!
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I am disappointed by this. It looks like you are showing true Linden color, Blue, and running out when the heat gets turned up, just as LL did in '06 when they abandoned the forum, and each time they showed up here since with some little trinket to be dangled in front of us, some empty promise of things to come, only to be forgotten and thrown into the scrap pile. I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I am also done with the topic.

Thanks for the reply and it would be great to be proved totally and utterly wrong when I say that LL has lost the art of communication. Please show me that LL does care and does want to be transparent in what it does as it has said in the past. I really would in this like to be proven wrong believe you me. It seems that LL has lost that hands on approach that it used to have. I attended 2 of the BB meetings to help contribute towards the AC changes and so far, all I have seen is empty promises. My trust in LL the company diminishes, when honesty goes out of the window.

LL has the best Think tank any company in the world could wish for, thousands of us testing the software and giving feedback. We have economists, lawyers, educators, programmers and many other trades and it seems that LL rides rough shod over the customer base many times and does not seem to listen to what is being said or suggested to them. It would be so refreshing if the customers that made SL the great place it is would at least be invited to help shape its future. You know that we do love this place and that is why so many passions come to the fore when LL makes seemingly stupid corporate moves



Please do not ever feel that you have over stayed your welcome, you do not realize I think, what a welcome change it makes when a Linden comes and discusses things with us in the forums. Especially when some of us cannot attend your office hours. I certainly do not hold any individual Linden responsible for the changes that are forced down the line to the customer base and you will always be treated with respect by myself, its the corporate policies I do not understand and they way it seems now that LL will do what it wants while just paying lip service to the customer base.

I am happy to chat with you at any time on any of these matters and my remarks were at LL the company not at yourself nor at SL, which I enjoy being a part of for the last 4 years

thats about right hey

There's a sort of contradiction here under the ---

Stick around and contribute. The answer to the forum issue lies in the execution, it's true of other LL policies too, people are feeling jaded by all the upheaval but all people want from the forum is usability and discussion, examples from the new software haven't been encouraging but there's a long way to go.

This may sound odd considering how long the promised forum upgrades have been on the table but why are LL always in a rush? So much of the frustrations would be avoided if you took smaller footsteps.

its not so much that theyre in rush as they simply wait until the last instant to 'address the community', then make a disingenuous effort to solicit feedback on the decisions and intentions they have already well into play.

This.

I see nothing good coming from LL going public, if indeed that is the direction they're headed. Stockholder-owned corporate culture almost never yields anything truly creative or innovative. In fact, in this context, it can be exactly the opposite, stifling all creativity.

Think about it: If the stockholders decide they don't like furries and nekos running around on "their" grid, take a wild guess what will happen.

You have to admit that the discussion here is leaning heavily away from the concept of "designing the new forums" in favor of expressions of frustration. Hopefully you'll read the transcript of the office hour I posted where there was quite a lot of constructive feedback on specific elements of the concept of new forums...add your two cents and email [email]blue@lindenlab.com[/email].

As stated previously, we're very early in this process so I'll continue to solicit opinions on the subject, harassing some of you individually, at office hours, or in brown bags.

Whining unbecomes you, Blue.

Yes, a lot of people ARE frustrated and venting, and you are catching it, unfortunately. But for almost three years they have kept this community going, for better or worse, and every time they asked for help, they were either ignored, lied to, or told of plans that were never amounted to anything. They,are tired of it. A lot of us don't trust LL as far as we could throw a prim, what have you shown us to prove otherwise?


These Residents, as you chose to call them, are your CUSTOMERS. Many pay a lot of money to use your service. They are going to complain when things they don't like happen. It sometimes will get nasty, but are LL that thin skinned, that they go fetal in a corner everytime something critical is said? They need to get their heads out of the TAO and that stupid Love Machine and see what is going on in their world, their product, and see what their customers are complaining about.This forum has been one way to do that, but it seems no one out there wants to come out and have a look.

Damn, and I said I was done with this subject.

Dude are you new around here? This is how threads go and even new funky software won't stop that, poor old Desmond has had a right couple of corkers lately where his threads have gone completely off the rails into another dimension, this one hasn't veered that badly!!!!

6 years as a resident

Brenda, I love you

What she said Blue.