And the casinos come crashing down....

there is in no way a law against the use of using a third party money (lindens) to use in a casino. There is also no law in use of betting in a third party establishment not controlling another party's casino. Linden is linden. No way affiliated with any government and not illegal at all. When you bet linden, you bet linden. You win linden, you win linden.

Therefore if you sold the linden on secondlife.com, second life would be breaking any laws. Though as a third party, transerable linden money exchange, the party selling the linden that was won on a casino, would be in trouble.

Basically, if you sell linden that you won from a casino, your breaking the law. If your buying linden, your not breaking the law.

In japan though, I know that most internet heavy laws are regulated.

So dont be scared nobody is gonna be knocking on your door saying your under arrest. Linden Labs would be the first one, and they would just have to pay taxes on this, which would increase the land rental space, because taxes will have to apply.

ok that was weird.

"Internet Gambling Prohibition Could Be Repealed
US Congress May Decriminalize Internet Gambling"

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/179478/internet_gambling_prohibition_could.html



"WTO criticizes US Internet gambling restrictions"
http://www.informationweek.com/internet/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198800348&cid=RSSfeed_IWK_News

No; therefore the americans say that US laws apply: in fact, they don't apply to us, because we are not in the US, just as Microsoft's declaration about licences being applicable according to Maryland laws has no relevance to the EU. The current problem, however, is that the UK has a one-sided extradition treaty with the US - we signed it, they didn't, which means that any UK citizen is at risk of accusation in a US case and the UK government will just send them right on over.

This breaks the ECHR regs, though, so any people thusly accused would be well advised to get on a ferry...

"The internet gambling bill, titled as the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA), was applied to the port security bill by then-Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) and Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ). Not only had Kyl tried and failed to pass his internet gambling prohibition law for an entire decade, but the duo had previously tried the same deceptive tactic of hiding the bill in legislation that was guaranteed to pass.

Kyl and Frist had previously attempted to add UIGEA to a military spending bill that governed the budget for US troops fighting the war on terror. Critics stated that the gambling bill had no place on the Defense Department legislation and forced it's removal. Critics also objected to it being included in the Port Security Act, but it was added at the last minute before any serious debate could be mustered."



I'm always amazed how much crap gets passed in this deceptive manner.

No, US law says since the servers are on US soil, the activity is subject to US law.

This is why most gambling sites are offshore in nonUS countries.

if your use of hardware (servers) physically located in another country is against that country's laws, then you have broken the laws of that country and are at risk of prosecution next time you set foot there, regardless of any extradition treaties in place.

chairmen of british gambling companies (like sportingbet) were arrested in the US just for accepting bets from american punters. you can bet (ha) the situation would be far worse had sportingbet 's webservers been physically located on US soil.

You are broadly right Walker but it is even worse than that.

888 and Sportingbet and the likes servers are actually based in the UK and Gib. Did not stop the CEOs getting arrested though when they passed within US reach.

Going off shore will not save SL's gaming business all the time US citizens can access the casinos, or for that matter while it is owned by a US company.

I have to say I am still cross with Robin Linden although I appreciate her words may have been dictated by others.

How would she feel being banged up in a US female prison without chance of bail until the trial date?

Now that the FBI have indicated an interest I personally (even as a UK subject) would not wish to go near a SL casino, let alone invest in one

It is not Linden Labs responsibilty to accomidate everyone's laws from around the world. Whether allowing something or disallowing it.

However it is Linden Labs responsibility to make sure they dont go out of business. That genrally means not tempting trouble with authorities that have to ability to put them out of business. Specifically the US authorities.


How is this such a difficult concept?

I mean - Sure they could stand up to the Man. How many of us would enjoy Second Life shut down from a court order while they battle out Virtual Casino Gambling with real stakes?


Stop making this a US vs. Europe issue. If the servers were in the UK, Linden Labs would have to comply with UK law. I wouldnt be lamenting the fact that its legal in the US to do something even though it wasnt in the UK where the company is based.


How many potential customers they have or how cool it is to be edgy is totally besides the point.

I find it hard to beleive that if Europe is so permissive on gambling you need to come to Second Life to get your gambling fix.

If its not permissive on gambling, where the heck do you get off telling people the US laws are too restrictive?

If it personally hurts your business or your gambling - then of course get upset, but dont play these denial of liberty games becuase they are just smoke screens as to why people are really annoyed. Its called rationalization. Look it up.

This is the cookie jar argument. A lot of people had their hand in the cookie jar or were the Cookie baker. Now Linden Labs has said you cant call the cookie jar a Cookie jar but if you want an unlabelled Cookie jar at your own risk you can have one. Of course if you get cuaght with your hand in it, LL is gonna say they told people they shouldnt have cookie jars anymore.

Laws, as they relate to you, and your conduct, are the local laws in the jurisdiction wherein you reside. The laws of the United States, and of the State of California, apply to Linden Lab, and govern its conduct. The decision to disallow advertising of gambling in Second Life is not an attempt to regulate YOUR conduct, it is intended to put some buffer space between Linden Lab ("The Service Provider" and the conduct of its customers.

it's pretty evident from John's post that they'd STILL have to comply with US law, even if their servers were located in the UK.

is anybody really making this a US vs. Europe issue? from the first page, some international users were clearly confused about whether they were even covered by US jurisdiction. that they absolutely are needs pointing out, unless they want to be arrested next time they visit.

Well theyd have to abide by both laws then. I was more implying that if they were a UK company theyd have to follow UK law and we in the US would have to live by that.

Gummi was specifically and a few others have. In fact there was a whole thread last night that was locked specfically anti american in scope.

*sigh* imagine if every business on the internet had to acquaint itself with the laws of every country where it had customers?

i was going to say that earlier John. i was in NYC last month and i'm visiting SF later this year, but if I had interests in a SL casino and the FBI decided gambling in SL was illegal, i'd be reluctant to visit again at all.

still, no difference. as you can see from the posts above about sportingbet, you can be chairman of a UK company with servers hosted in the UK, but still fall foul of the US's gambling laws.

It can't be much clearer than that, can it. And as Colete said if online gambling is so easy and secure in your home country, than why on earth would you want to gamble on SL. I love real life Casinos, but all of the games I tried in SL are dull and boring. I even tried some online gaming before the current bill was passed here. I found that boring as well. Most states have some form of legalized gambling, Lottery, Horse Racing Dog Racing, Casino, Bingo ,etc. Most of the ones that don't are because the residents of those states
Vote gambling proposals down. In New York State I believe there is even online gaming of a source, OTB allows you to set up an account and wager on horses from the comfort of home.

I know it's hip right now to be some sort of angry NeoEuroSocialist today, and that's fine. But put that passion to better use. SL is a GAME, owned by Linden Labs, a Private Company, hosted on their Servers which are based in the USA. They are bound by the laws of that country and whatever States their servers are in. We are limited to whatever rights and privileges they decide to grant us as users of the program. Somehave tried to make this some sort of freedom issue: You have freedom. To cancel your account and walk away if you don't agree with anything that goes on here

I don't know what is more troublesome..SL turning into a dull Corporate Disney Waste Land or the Anarchanistic Socialist Utopia that I think some would like to see......
(Ok maybe a bit too much hyperbole.... )

One thing I wonder is how many who are howling here about being bound by US law now, were the same ones pushing for LL to conform to other countries laws during the great Ageplay/Kiddie Porn debate a while back.

Apologies for being long winded. Just my opinions.....I could be wrong.

(Just as long Shopping isn't banned....)

Of course - I wasnt disagreeing with your posts.

and i forgot to acknowledge your point about recent US v Europe wars. thanks Colette.

Do people realize that "prostitution" in SL is "real sex" about as much as calling 1-900-HOT-CHIX is real sex? Phone sex lines don't seem to be illegal in the US, so why would simulated sex in SL be illegal? At most, sex in SL is hot chat with crappy pictures. (Not that I don't enjoy some hot chat with crappy pictures now and then. ) And if hot chat in SL can be considered illegal, then all the sex chat services on the rest of the internet and the phone sex lines are illegal, too.

The difference with casinos is that you can cash out your L$ into real US$, and that's where the area of concern exists. Is it legal or not under current US law? Linden Labs is doing the right thing, IMO, by pulling the ads while they talk to the US Gov't to see where this issue stands.

What that means is regulation.

As it is, there is no means to regulate a scripted item on the grid. So even if internet gambling were lawful, it won't happen here until it could be regulated and taxed.

This would mean even *stricter* enforcement. Instead of simply 'shutting them down' there would be cash incentive to hunt down casino operators and tax them.

The suddenly lawful, taxed casino owners would probably instantly turn on their higher-profit, unregulated competitors, and try to collect the tax bounty that still exists if you turn in a tax cheat.

A couple of grumbling Senators/congressmen and criticism by an organization America largely ignores isnt enough to say Internet gambling even has a slim chance to be made legal in the United states.

The amount of influence depends on how much money the special interest lobbying groups have.

good point

the unregulated gambling industry has zero clout in the US congress.

The Regulated gambling industry though, possibly.

MGMgrand3dcasinoonline.com here we come.

Which is why I am troubled with LL's statements and efforts. Advertising a casino doe's not violate the law. However, running the Lindex, which allows a person to buy lindens, go into a casino, potentially win money, then take those lindens and sell them back for cash is exactly what the Internet Gambling Law prohibits. Thats why all the major creidt card compnay's and Paypal wont deal in casino business anymore in the states. Shame on the Lindens for violating the law, but they did it, they allowed it, they advertised casinos in thier own web pages and they turned a blind eye.

This attack on our right to advertise is troubling though. Why after they potentially violated US law do they attack our right to free speech I don't understand. I realize they can decline what ever they want, but to pretend like they are distancing themselves from casinos is just BS. It sort of shocks my senses that thier first reflex is merely to silence the user, rather then follow the law from the start. It is possible that criminal charges could be sought, and not against the users, but in fact, Linden Lab corporate officers who allowed the possible illegal activity to occur on thier transaction servers.

I would swear that the guy is not in jail, but in fact under house arrest. But I would love to spend time in a womans prison, where do I sign up?

I haven't read all this thread, but I do believe "Unmitigated Gall" is far and away the best name EVER made on SL.

coco

LL is not attacking anyone's right to free speech. Within the virtual environment of Second Life, you don't have such a right. Outside of Second Life, they simply don't care. The fact that this thread exists on Linden Lab's dime shows that they are not interested in attacking anyone's right to free speech. The "free speech" card doesn't hold any value here.

[Edit] Yeah, I agree with the previous post, Unmitigated Gall is a pretty good SL name.

[Another Edit] Similarly, we do not have a "right to advertise". All rights granted within Second Life are exclusively granted through the decisions of Linden Labs.

.