And the casinos come crashing down....

The casino games are rigged anyways, stop wasting your linden!

Do a search at a well known exterior shopping site for SL goods for casino equipment and read the description. "Garaunteed to not pay out more than the machine has received in money ensuring the casino owner makes a profit".

Maybe new people will stop getting screwed at something where they have no recourse. I'm all for people running a casino if that's what they want to do, but it's unregulated, and people who go into a casino to drop linden down expect a fair game like they'd get at a normal casino. I hope LL doesn't jump down a very slippery slope here and end up ruining their world (the presence of casinos, hookers, and other things we should abstain from adds that real world flavor to it), but I for one won't cry a tear for casino owners that can no longer place ads in search.

This is absolutely normal for all casinos IRL and ISL and doesn't mean the game is "rigged". Your winnings are paid by the other people who played the machine, the casino owner just enables the game to be played.

To reply to several of the posts without copying them:

Itchy @ #122: There are no laws anywhere that I am aware of against freeroll games, in SL or RL. If the player doesn't have to risk anything, it can not be called gambling. Freeroll games that are in place for the enjoyment of the player should remain. Of course, freeroll games that are provided as a lure to the pay games will go away if the pay games are banned.

Domneth @ #123: There are games that are rigged like you say, but there are many that are not. If there is a game that you want to play, you can find out more about it's payout structure by going to the places that sell the game and reading the information they give to potential buyers. Some games guarantee that they will not pay out more than they take in, but most do not. Most of the games are set up to work on the priciple of big numbers, where they will pay out some fixed percentage in the long term, but can definately cost the owner big time in the short run. On the non-rigged machines, you are as likely to hit the jackpot on the first play as you are on the 100th. Any game that you find that guarantees to pay out less than what is taken in should not be played. (unless maybe you witness someone lose 100 times in a row and walk away).

And to anyone complaining about camping here: If you want to get rid of camping, it should be discussed in threads about camping. When discussing whether or not casinos should or will get banned due to online gambling regulations, camping is not an issue. There are many casinos that do not have camping, and many non-casinos that do. There are no laws against getting paid for sitting in a chair stairing into space (ask anyone with a cubicle job). Too many times when the discussion is about casinos or clubs, there are many posts equivalent to "Ban them all! Camping chairs suck!". It's a completely separate issue.

For the relevant discussion: Right now the position of the Feds is that THEY don't even know how to classify the gambling inside SL. Until they figure out what it is, they won't do anything about it. Until the Feds issue a decision about the status of Second Life and whether or not games played with Lindens count as gambling, the sky is not falling.

I gamble a fair bit and the dont seemed rigged to me. The only problems i have encountered is when a casino owner runs out of money due to campers and then can pay out to winners due to lack of funds. This is not a fault of the machines but the owners themselves for not managing there business better (ie offering camping without first achieving the profits required to support it).

Anyway if a machine payed out more than it recieved it cant a very good one. They are meant to make a profit for the owner otherwise whats the point.

Again, corrupt real world authorities infringe on the virtual world. For SL, this is only the beginning. The time has come for a free (as in speech) metaverse that is distributed in such a way that it can't be shut down with a single lawsuit/prosecution. SL is Napster. We now need to develop Emule. The time to talk is over. Get coding.

SL gambling isnt a free speech issue.

Gambling isnt a free speech issue.

Being able to gamble is more a liberty issue.

Its more --
- does the ability to gamble infringe on others rights?
- and does the ability to gamble allow you to avoid taxation?
- and do operators of gambling establishments need regulation?

"Your world. Your imagination" and regulation of user behavior are mutually exclusive. If LL is incapable of providing an open metaverse where willing participants can partake in whatever activities that they can imagine, then they will eventually lose their marketshare to opensource alternatives (Napster versus Emule). Therefore, by attempting to regulate behavior in LL's virtual world, the US government (and their enforcers LL) will only destroy SL and spread its denizens to whatever alternative worlds pop up in its wake.

I think LL's only chance to survive as the defacto virtual world monopoly is to move their operations offshore ASAP. I promise that at least a dozen virtual world projects have been started, this weekend, in response to LL's blog entry.

Very narrow point of view, lumping us all together like that. Read my product descriptions at SLX and tell me that you see any such thing. Read the descriptions of most of my competitors, and you'll find that the majority of us are ethical, and that the "zero sum" machines are limited to a small handful of makers. Most of us are interestind in maintaining a good reputation, because machines that don't pay out don't get played. The casino owner pulls the machine because it sucks, and the machine's maker doesen't get repeat business. I RELY on repeat business...who doesn't?

this part i can agree with - However I dont think the entire market has been realized yet. It could very well be the more "mainstream" users are more than enough to make second life suceed even with more liberal alternatives.




I dont think moving offshore will really be a viable alternative to them since their main focus seem to be to attract corporate interest and more "mianstream" users.

I dont know who really thinks they can keep a monopoly on a 3d based virtual world concept. If they ever had one. Which I dont think they do.

I can only speculate on what LL's long-term business plans are, but if they include running off all of the "immoral" players/businesses/activities and replacing them with more prim Nissans, then the SL that is being prepared for us is significantly different than what's currently written on the tin. Let's hope that after enforcing the US' laws in their virtual world, nobody will end up enforcing deceptive advertising laws on them.

Linden Lab cracks down on Second Life casino ads
Thu Apr 5, 2007 8:04pm PDT
By Adam Reuters

SECOND LIFE, April 6 (Reuters) - Linden Lab said on Thursday it has banned classified ads and listings “that appear to relate to simulated casino activity,” amid increasing questions about the legality of virtual casinos and gambling in Second Life.

“It has been a basic tenet of Second Life that all Residents are legally responsible for their own activities and for complying with the laws of the local jurisdiction in which they reside,” Robin Linden, the company’s head of community development, said on the company’s blog. “However, given the ambiguities of the issues, Linden Lab has decided that we will not accept any classified ads, place listings, or event listings that appear to relate to simulated casino activity.”

Reuters reported exclusively on Tuesday that the FBI had visited virtual casinos in Second Life at the invitation of Linden Lab. Former general counsel Ginsu Yoon told Reuters the company had also attempted to obtain legal
guidance on the issue from the U.S. Attorney for Northern California, but that it had not received any clear guidelines.

Questions about gambling in Second Life come amid a crackdown on offshore gaming Web sites by U.S. law enforcement agencies. One site, PalmVegas.com, said on Thursday it would ban U.S.-based Second Life residents from its virtual casino to avoid violating anti-gambling statutes.

“For our part, we will continue to evaluate these issues, including where appropriate by reaching out to law enforcement, and by working toward solutions that keep our Residents’ experiences safe and legal,” Robin Linden said.

Earlier this year, the company banned advertising and listings for virtual child pornography after the Dutch public prosecutor’s office announced it was considering prosecutions.

Offshore casino turns away U.S.-based avatars
Thu Apr 5, 2007 12:04pm PDT
By Adam Reuters

SECOND LIFE, April 5 (Reuters) - The company behind the online gambling site PalmVegas.com and the recently created PalmVegas.com Island in Second Life said it would bar avatars who are based in the United States from its virtual casino to avoid breaking U.S. anti-gambling laws.

“This compliance is required to ensure that our world wide casino operations are restricted to access by non-U.S. residents as well as those accessing casino operations from a computer located with the United States of America in accordance with the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act,” Giddyup Holdings Incorporated said in a statement.

The move comes two days after Reuters reported exclusively that FBI agents had visited Second Life casinos at the invitation of Linden Lab.

Giddyup Holdings is based in the British Virgin Islands. In recent months U.S. law enforcement agencies have cracked down on Web-based casinos that are housed offshore, including the arrest of one executive who had a connecting flight through the United States.

“From what we’re hearing from our sources, (the FBI’s) looking around and is getting a bit more interested. There’s going to be a crackdown at some point,” said Andre Choquette (SL avatar: Azno Simons), Giddyup’s director of operations, in a phone interview. “Our solicitors said, there’s just no way — you’re completely running outside of the (anti-gambling) act, because the currency can be freely traded.”

Choquette said the company has asked Linden Lab for a way to verify residents’ IP addresses — or at least to determine which country the IP addresses were based — but for now will have a concierge ask gamblers their country of residence. The measure is clearly not foolproof and depends on the honesty of the gamblers, but Choquette said it would at least show PalmVegas is making an effort to comply with U.S. law.

“If the crackdown comes down, Linden Lab is going to do one of two things — make everybody comply (with the anti-gambling act) or shut down casinos,” he said. “I’m suspecting that Linden Lab, based on the legal opinion we received, does not want to be in a position to be liable.”

It appears others think that Linden Labs has potetially already put themselves in Legal trouble with criminal charges. Check out the link and article below. The big mistake with SL was the Lindex. Once they did that they really incurred huge liability.


http://gaming.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1287142.php/FBI_investigates_Second_Life_gambling

It would appear that the virtual existence on offer to users of Linden Lab’s popular online world ‘Second Life’ is becoming tangible enough in its temptations as to warrant an investigation from the FBI, according to a recent Reuters report.

By Stevie Smith Apr 4, 2007, 15:55 GMT


It would appear that the virtual existence on offer to users of Linden Lab’s popular online world ‘Second Life’ is becoming tangible enough in its temptations as to warrant an investigation from the FBI, according to a recent Reuters report.


More pointedly, while the U.S. government continues to sit ponderously on the fence regarding virtual gambling’s legal standing, investigators from the FBI have already visited and examined the online casinos contained within Second Life following invitations issued directly from San Francisco-based Linden Lab.

“We have invited the FBI several times to take a look around in Second Life and raise any concerns they would like,” commented Ginsu Yoon, Linden Lab’s VP of business affairs, “and we know of at least one instance that federal agents did look around in a virtual casino.”

Yoon also revealed that Linden Lab has already requested due instruction from U.S. authorities in relation to the legality and standing of virtual gaming/gambling activities, but has not received any clearly defined guidance at this point in time. "It’s not always clear to us whether a 3D simulation of a casino is the same thing as a casino, legally speaking, and it’s not clear to the law enforcement authorities we have asked," Yoon said.

At present it would appear that the impact of gambling in Second Life is negligible in terms of user influence. Although there are hundreds of casinos woven within the world’s virtual fabric, all offering poker and blackjack tables as well as the obligatory draw of slot machines, it is believed the three poker casinos deemed to be the most substantial are turning over a meagre $1,500 each every month.

However, it is also thought that the increasing amount of casinos and gambling opportunities now appearing throughout Second Life have been partly prompted by the U.S. government’s clampdown on real-world online gambling. And, worryingly for Linden Lab and its Second Life casino owners, Reuters reports that most lawyers suggest that even betting with Second Life’s virtual (but exchangeable) currency, the Linden dollar, is likely to constitute a violation of the U.S. anti-gambling statutes in terms of wagering “something of value.”

Of course, it remains to be seen just how hard Linden Labs could be hit as a result if the government turns its gambling wrath towards Second Life. Emergent technology attorney Brent Britton of Tampa law firm Squire, Sanders & Dempsey suggests that Linden Lab could find itself looking at criminal charges under the Illegal Gambling Business Act of 1970, or even the 2006 Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act.

Linden Lab’s Second Life is an expansive 3D online portal of entertainment, experience, and opportunity where the personal avatars of more than 5 million registered users interact and co-exist in a world that’s even open to genuine user-created trade through The Marketplace. According to the official Second Life website, “The Marketplace currently supports millions of US dollars in monthly transactions. This commerce is handled with the in-world unit-of-trade, the Linden dollar, which can be converted to US dollars at several thriving online Linden Dollar exchanges.”

Ailin Graef (avatar name: Anshe Chung) gained considerable Second Life and real-world notoriety at the tail end of 2006 when her virtual real estate business made her the online world’s very first millionaire, some two and half years after opening a $9.95 USD Second Life account.

why provide a link when you quote the whole story?

this looks like a story recycled from a couple other stories anyhow and doesnt provide much information of substance.

Also I think you should delete Anshe's RL name off your post.

At the moment more and more europian companies are investing in SL, this brings the big money in.
And because of this more different laws are getting involved in SL.
I'm not sure all user-agreements are the same for Europians and other SL residents, but when becoming a resident the own law of the country you live in is comming effective for that member.
It's my opinion LL has to take some action now, preventing loosing new investors and problems with governments.
As known a country can decide to forbid or restrict SL for their territory...ant this means missing a whole country as possible residents.
Imagine the Europian Union decides to restrict SL... that's a potential for over 480 million new residents...think LL is clever...

Will 480 million people really be interested in a sanitized graphical chatroom (with ads)? LL tries to have one foot in "this is a virtual world - freedom and creativity woo woo" and the other in "this is a cool new way for corporations to advertise to people - prim nissans woo woo". LL needs to decide what they want to do with this thing and quit pretending like they can have it both ways.

well someone did and they got banned for 6 months..

/me plops down his cash on the virtual felt.

I'd like a peice of that action mister.

Sarcastically yours,
Neurosis

True That man. I never did understand the sissy side of LL.
Cmon lindens, The real $$$ is in being a rebel and standing up to the man and giving
the people what they REALLY want. Just look at comedy central.

Hmmm perhaps you should refer to a later version? You do know the Hippie movement is dead don't you?

Prim Nissans? ROFL, we can't even get a working bicycle in SL, why would anyone try to use SL to sell cars?
"No mama, the real one doesn't swerve off the road and throw you face first into the road when you cross a suburban postcode boundry. But if it's any consellation even $200k cars do the same thing."
"hmm test drive? Sorry mate we have no roads on the island......."
"Yes most SL cars do fly because they are bloody usless for driving................"

i'm in the uk too, but we're logged into servers hosted in the US, therefore US laws apply.

we don't have identity cards forced upon us in the uk yet, which means they'd want something like a passport for proof. question is: who would want to share something as sensitive as that with a company that already had one serious security breach and took months to reveal that some members unencrypted personal details (names, addresses) and credit card numbers had been stolen by hackers?