Why is there not a "General Discussion" forum?

Well, this has gotten fairly caustic--unnecessarily so, IMHO, but anyway.... To try to productively proceed, maybe a level-set is in order.

What I think is the drive here is a mutual desire to help make the forums succeed going forward. We don't all agree about what if anything needs fixing, but we all share the same overall goal of a productive and fun place to communicate. I'd venture that there'd be agreement that expressed Linden support of these forums would also be valued.

As I see it, there are several forum "stakeholders" (or potential stakeholders):
- The Lindens. It's their forum, about their product, for their customers.
- The Posters. Some have questions, some have answers, some have wit. Mix well.
- The ResMod(s). This can be a horrid job. Would be nice if it were less horrid.
- The Lurkers. Some get answers. Some tell Corporate that SL is full of crazy people and to put that R&D budget somewhere else.
- The Absent. Those who'd productively participate in one of the above categories, but don't know about the forums' existence, or have been put-off by something.

As it stands, the Lindens have stated that they will support the forums (with the new dedicated communications position, at least). They've solicited for new ResMods but haven't acted on responses yet. Any substantive changes to the forums requires their approval. I've guessed earlier in this thread that the delay is in filling that communications position--but that's just a guess. It might be helpful if Robin (or someone) could clue us in on what they envision as the process ahead.

Some of the Posters have expressed a strong desire for input into the structure of the forums. This probably can't be had in a neatly be-ribboned consensus, but this thread elicited some views that could be part of the input. I think some more comprehensive collection of input could be useful, but how that's to occur might benefit from discussion with other stakeholder groups.

As ResMod, Strife, you're probably constrained in ways others can't fully appreciate. I'd guess, for example, that you're unable to disclose some things about the Lindens' plans and progress regarding these forums, and that's perfectly understandable. In such matters all we as posters can do is try to support you in whatever background discussions are taking place, and try to help devise ways to make the ResMod task more possible in the future.

The other two groups, the Lurkers and the Absent, just aren't gonna get input... but they manifestly *exist*, and in contemplating changes it would be wise to consider their prospective contributions, too.

So, no doubt having thus again demonstrated my uncanny flair for the bloody obvious, I guess I should come to the point: Some Posters want to help, somehow. At some point, a sit-down meeting among the stakeholders would seem valuable, but I (for one) don't know all the considerations that might factor into timing such a meeting, or the constraints that must be placed on its agenda. In the meantime, Posters might offer further suggestions--though I'm not sure this thread, in the ResMod forum, is the best place to get that input. (Any suggestions about a better venue?) (For that matter, would the Lindens even entertain input from Posters regarding changes ahead?)

Fyi, I believe this is the job description for the new communications position (from the employment section of their website), disappointingly does not mention the Forums as a community of interest. Didn't want to post this, to avoid depressing people. I think, to advance this, we are going to have to approach Robin and possibly other Lindens in office hours, feeling our way very carefully. Strife is making his view of his role very clear; having expressed his opinion about the proposal, I think he's done. God knows his plate is full enough. A face-to-face discussion to determine next steps, among forum interested parties, might be helpful.

Linden Lab is looking to hire a Community Manager for Second Life, our 3D virtual world. The ideal candidate is a proven writer or blogger, experienced in managing multiple communication channels with a knowledgeable and committed customer audience. As one of our customer-facing leaders, a Community Manager engages Second Life Residents to identify trends and feedback that can be used to improve the user experience.

Major Responsibilities:
Manage 3 Major Communication Channels: Second Life Blog, Newsletter, Podcast

Creates and edits content that addresses critical issues for Residents and Linden Lab.
Collaborates with relevant departments on content, moderation, distribution, and syndication.
Develops other communication channels as necessary.
Summarizes key themes, trends and metrics that contribute to Linden Lab business requirements and Second Life Resident experience.

Great analysis, Qie

I sense that you have a PM background in RL. If you don't, you're a natural

There are two reasons the forums were limited to the existing format.

1 - Censorship. There are far fewer opinions and protests about various policies and practices.

2 - Resource Allocation. They don't have to have as many people watching the forums, and can use them for other tasks.

Based on the sorts of discussions which were very popular when they canned the array of "general discussion" forums, I would say it was probably more #1 than #2. #2 was just the perk.

With all of the attention SL had been (and still is getting) in the media, do you really think they wanted threads about age/rape play, client hacking, technical issues, intellectual property theft, etc. being found and reported on? lol I doubt it.

As Strife noted above, killing various private, customer-only readable forums only pushed the complaints into the very public RSS syndicated blog. Add to that a number of third party sites that discuss all of these topics and the media have no trouble getting dirt if they want it.

If the forum closure was an attempt to manage adverse PR, it had the opposite effect. I don't think that was the intent (even if it was the ostensible intent, which I don't recall it being).

Admittedly, neither of us are employees of Linden Lab. Therefore, any points either of us make on the internal reasons Linden Lab closed the general forums are purely conjecture.

**My own opinion is that the closure of General had nothing to do with censorship.**

Firstly, the Second Life forums are only available to those who have a registered Second Life account. This in itself, greatly limits the outside audience that can read the forums.

Secondly, and most importantly - 3rd party forums (which Linden Lab has zero control over), have *way* more contentious discussions about sensitive topics, and those forums are google-searchable. All closing the forums would do is scatter the debate across the internet, and make it even harder for them to respond to it.

Thirdly, Linden Lab employees read & enjoy the forums too. Many Lindens are residents just like you & I are, or were former residents that became Lindens.

It may seem a convienient explanation that they closed the forum for censorship reasons, but I just dont buy it.

In my opinion, the forums were indeed a liability for Linden Lab - but not because 'sensitive' information about problems in SL were being exposed. Rather, the atmosphere of the social environment was one that turned new users off on the game because it was so toxic, AND there was no budget to hire folks to moderate the forum in a way to do it justice.

It's surprising how little of the dirt really gets discussed in the media, considering the amount of attention SL gets.



I don't think they would have come out and said "We are censoring you to reduce the amount of bad PR potential, controversial discussions about our failings in curbing illegal activity, and to stop residents from discussing topics we don't like discussed".

Of course, I am just speculating anyway.

You make some good points, specifically the one quoted above.

But I do believe the loss of the general forums came more from frustrated reactionism to some of the debates and discussions than anything else. That was the impression I got then, anyway.

But it is all speculation anyway.

edit - One thing is for sure though... when the old "general use" forms were shut down, I felt a fair bit less involved with the community.

Maybe I'm overly naiive, but I just dont buy into all the consipracy theories about Linden Lab, or the world for that matter. Although I freely admit conspiracies are much more fun to talk about than the real truth....

Its not conspiracy that runs rampant... its *incompetence*. Apply that to Linden Lab, our Governement, even Corporations.

That's my world-view, at least

Oh I mostly agree with you here... though, unfortunately, there are conspiracies from time to time. Whether or not that is the case with the loss of the old forums will most likely never come to light.



I can't argue with you here.

And there lies the crux of the matter. I don't even remember what the ostensible reason was, if one was even offered.

Despite LL's repeated claims of transparancy, they are continually opaque, obfuscating, and when they choose to be, somewhat translucent. Someone above mentioned "constraints" on "plans for the forums" that Strife might be prohibited from disclosing. I seem to remember Strife saying somewhere that he was indeed under NDA (forgive me if I made that up). But I think his voice is constrained by LL because - as I'm sure is plain to all - Linden Lab would have their whole enterprise compromised if people knew what their plans were for their vBulletin board. I'd encountered this attitude when in industry and thought it loopy then; I don't have much reason to expect it should have generally changed, but it is still daffy.

So we're reduced, as usual, to Politburo watching to see if the forums will close, or improve, or get worse.

My error, which I humbly and without sarcasm admit to, was that any of us could effect change. To all those who were irritated by my efforts or comments, please accept my apology.

Never apologize for speaking up. It takes more guts to speak one's mind and try to make change, than to tear someone else down for doing so.

And even more guts to speak one's mind trying to make change, having the audience agree change is needed,

And then get huffy that the audience doesn't agree to the exact "prescription" for change that was advocated.

this thread has sure gone to shit!
a prime example of why we are not likely to see a general discussion board in our future.

I would be the first to agree if a thread has lost its value and deserved to be tanked. I see this thread having some ups and downs, but overall maintaining its underlying stability. If anything it demonstrates why a general discussion board CAN work, and WOULD serve as a practical (tho perhaps often esoteric) community venue where thoughts and ideas can be tossed about. Society needs such venues to expand its horizons. Confining the words of the populace to third party sites denies us of the unity derived from a centralised location. We are kin here, paying our dues to share the SL experience in all its myriad facets. Finding the locales to do that in should be made easy. Whether we are talking about a neat place in world to visit, or a place we can gather out of game, (ie: boards). Which would be more condusive to accomplishing this? Thousands of people googling around, trying to find Joe Schmoe's or Suzy Creamcheeses SL message boards, fragmented groups posting on one site or another, or having all the boards you need to communicate with, right here on the certified SL website?

General? Never heard of it!

Well, no better way to dispel the "clique mystique" than for its putative members to rip each other's guts out every few posts.

The thing is, to me, Resident Answers is just fine as-is, with its current Moderation practices and (relative) restraint by posters. But I'm not sure it's optimally serving other stakeholders (notably the residents seeking answers, the Lindens, the long-suffering ResMod...). And I'm not sure it's assured of staying well-behaved without Herculean efforts on the part of the ResMod. Such reasons are why I think it worthwhile to explore alternatives, including a General Discussion forum.

External, "resident-run" venues serve a valid purpose, but relegating all "General" topics to unofficial sites is not in LL's best interest. Whatever the new Communications person is *intended* to do, we can only hope s/he will see beyond the apparently limited current vision of what communication channels can be of value to LL and its customers.

But I still hold out hope that the "apparently limited" vision is more "apparent" than "limited." After all, the fundamental problem is *communication*, so probably one shouldn't read too much into a lack of communication on the subject.

Hey, I'll remember someone here said that.

Because lordie knows, I speak my mind unhindered by fear of judgment, acceptance and approval. [Somethings wrong with that sentence structure and meaning...but I'm too lazy to figure it out.]

Since I guess I am the one who supposedly destroyed this thread -

My point was only that Strife seems willing to admit that some changes would help.

He just isn't willing to to rubber stamp one of the poster's proposals. I cant see how said poster should expect such a rubber stamp would have been reasonable.

And now that poster has expressed bitterness over it even in other threads.

I don't see Strife as the unreasonable one in this.