Why is there not a "General Discussion" forum?

Travis, thanks for that trip down heartburn lane I needed three Advil before the 2nd thread. And you know what? It has been a long time since the words STFU, f**k you, c**t and various others have been tossed out in this forum - as opposed to making an hourly appearance back in General. That is some progress, no? We have learned to be considerably more civil.

Strife, moderating forums doesn't have to be a soul sucking excercise. The problem has always been that Resmods were given the responsibility but never the authority or the backing of superiors. That is a sure fire recipe for feeling continuously kicked. At the time the Resmod program first was announced I said somewhere that I would do the job...but only with a Linden last name and full authority. No one without a Linden name is ever going to carry respect. What Malachi was proposing there was to give Resmods some actual power beyond locking a thread. LL has to make a decision here - either they reinvent the moderation and communication of both the forums or the blog or they drop them all together. I'd like to hope that choosing to fix the problem is the direction they would head in but history has shown that when facing a fork in the road LL tends to just shut things down rather than make changes to fix a worthy idea.

While I don't disagree with your post really, I think a bit differently on this.

LL SHOULD make a decision here.

They don't have to, they could continue to just let things limp along on the forums and the blog indefinitely.

Sure they seem to be losing value and relevance, but that doesn't make either useless. Perhaps just useless to us.

I disagree, there is a lot of turbulence in the waters right now and ignoring it to maintain status quo just starts us down the road to permanent closure of blog comments and the loss of even the RA forum as those become even more of a wild-west free for all.

I personally think that if the kind and intelligent people who are regulars in this forum would make just a bit of effort to constrain their amusement to specific threads and not derail anything that was a true question needing some guidance, it would solve most of the acrimony that has cropped up. It does go over the line on a regular basis - so much so that it stops being funny. Any comic will tell you that a gag is only funny a certain number of times before it just becomes lame. One comment involving pie or panties is funny, two is still funny. After that it becomes annoying and irritating. Wit has to be carefully deployed. I honestly don't think that is too much to ask......

How much turbulence is there really? And how much seems excessively turbulent because these forums are so rarely used?

Definately, we're collectively more civil now. But - I don't think the people now are any more or less civil as individuals then the folks back then. What's changed - is the posting rules & style of moderation.



That's a viable option for the short-term, I think. Longer term, however - there's still a genesis we're on a collision course with:

Invariably, a regular poster will emerge that 'Isn't afraid of Linden Lab', and uses that sentiment as their battle cry. They'll use their intelligence & wit to push the envelope on things in a way that's just under the radar from being classified as a troll.

Others will become encouraged by the above, and repeat the same, until 'under the radar' becomes an equally-hard-to-see status quo. The envelope on the new status-quo will then be pushed, repeating the cycle.

This is how it starts - and I think how it started before. I hate to say it, but the only way to break this cycle is strong moderation. And strong moderation is arguably both financially and socially costly.

Let me get this straight -

This thread has gone from a simple - "Why cant we have a general forum"? because basically people like to have general discussions.

-To-

The forums are way out of hand, Not only cant we handle a general topics forum , but we cant really handle the forums we do have, and they are in danger of falling apart.

----------------

I don't buy it.

I think people are too wrapped up in their theoretical logic and missing the forest for the knots in the trees.

I think there is a lot of turbulence right now. Things got a little wild in the derailment dept and a number of people began throwing the word 'clique" around. That caused some public introspection here on the forums where it was revealed that it was more than just a couple of people that were feeling put-off about the change in tone in RA. The more the situation has been discussed, the more people who have felt comfortable in coming out with their negative impressions. Yes, some of those people have been trollish in their own right and contributed exactly nothing to the discourse other than voicing their contempt for everyone.

If this turbulence is allowed to continue without resolution then it divides to forum into "us" and "them" teams, both deciding that they are equally self-righteous. The FIC thing, the Tekkie-Wikki business, forum bans of some very famous trolls, all of these served to divide the forum regulars into two warring camps with anyone who actually came to learn something or discuss anything getting caught in the crossfire. The same phenomenon will repeat itself here in RA unless people learn to tone it down and be a bit more considerate of their fellow posters. Most people are followers, not leaders and *some* people in this very thread are natural leaders whom many others will follow. Please don't set a bad example and divide the forum into "us" and "them" camps. It is an ill wind that blows no good.

There are two things that seem to be a common request lately...

a) Bring back the General Forum

or

b) Officially condone the use of Resident Answers as a social forum, instead of its unofficial capacity today.


I'll be the bad guy & just say it:

Unless they're going to enforce thorough, 24/7 moderation policies, and have the commitment to back it up with financial resources, Linden has *no buisness* running a social forum, and should be leaving that to the 3rd party community who has all of the time & none of the liability. Leaving technical & support forums open only makes sense.

That was the original plan when Linden closed the General Forum. But they've allowed Resident Answers to morph into a social forum again. As a result, folks have planted proverbial roots here, and will be extremely upset when they have to close or change it again.

While there's plenty of chaos in-world to begin with, imagine how bad it would be if there were no Liasons, and instead Linden relied soley on resident 'Live Help' instead? I see these forums being handled no differently. Unless that changes, ultimately, no, we won't be able to handle a social forum long-term.

Are you meaning me don't set a bad example?

I'm a bit confused. I'm not allowed to feel that it seems to have been blown all out of proportion?

Considering I *was* here for the bad old days. This is nothing like them.

I think this is a bit revisionist. The General forum wasn't closed because it was social.

Unless you actually *buy* the rationailzations they come up with *after* they make a decision.

The idea that a general forum shouldn't exist because it would be social and LL cant handle it? Okay, I don't really agree but I can see where you are coming from.

But the idea that was the real reason they shut down the general forums .. nah.

The problems this forum is facing are of the potential variety. For the most part, things are relatively serene around here by comparison.

Its the emergence of a social community, (where there wasn't supposed to be one, and Linden is unprepared for), that is disturbing, and is beginning to raise some red flags that we're heading down a similar path of old.

The time to give a reality check is *before* there's a problem, not during or after, when its too late to do anything about it. I think at least my own, and Isablan's comments are being stated with that spirit in mind.

You are a strong poster who's not afraid to speak her mind on any issue. You also wont hesitate to spar with those you disagree with. If they are disrespecful to you, the gloves come off, and you no longer feel compelled to be respectful to them either. Most of the time though, folks are respectful to you - and you're equally respectful in return.

I wouldn't suggest for a moment that you shouldn't speak your mind, nor take an opposing view. But as soon as folks take others' disrespect as license to do it themselves on a mass scale, we wont be far off from where we were with the old forums. That, I think, is the cautionary warning that's trying to be conveyed. Not to you specifically, but to all of us.

Okay. But where is the warning coming from?

Its like all of a sudden in this thread? someone decided were getting a warning and I missed the post?

Or some posters have taken it on themselves to tell the rest that they are out of line?

And how exactly do they do that without coming of a bit self-rightous?

Some of the posts since this shift on this thread surely have come of pretty much either as self-important or patronizing. Most haven't but some have.

Was the goal to rub the "Panties and pie" people's noses in it?

I've seen the 'Panties & Pie' refrence thrown around a bunch of times. Honestly, I missed the whole thing - so the context is totally lost on me Regardless, that's not the impetus for my role in this conversation.

If I'm coming off patronizing or self-important, I apologize - and it means I'm doing a poor job of conveying my message. The only reason I even care enough to say something at all, is, well.... I live here too. Perhaps I'm dwelling too much on whats similar to the old forums - and not giving enough credit to what's different.

As I'm sure you can attest to - the closure of the old General forums was extremely traumatic for a lot of people. Many felt like its closure was the end of their world, and left Second Life as a result. I see absolutely no reason to go through all of that again when we have the opportunity to learn from our previous mistakes.

The seeds of the future are being sown right now, and much of it is being done by folks who have no memory of the old situation & how we got there. Assuming we control our own destiny around here (debatable itself), I think sharing the information about the past could set us on a different course. Or not

I wish that were the case, but the "new home for Forum Cartel" thread (or whatever it was called) elicited some pretty strong "us vs them" sentiment, too, at least by current standards.

Which is not to say that this little recent turbulence can't just blow over. To me, the imporance of this thread isn't to fix a problem that's cropped-up just now, but to try to make the most of an opportunity that I think is just over the horizon, when the new Linden forum-supporting communications person takes position.

Well evidently some people dont like the schmoozing thats gone on and were critical about it. Of course thats going to bother people who didnt think they were out of hand. And even bother some people who knew they were.

But theres also some people who think Resident Answers should only be a sterile Question and answer Forum and that there should be no interaction on any other level. Basically anywhere except on a third party forum.

So they are going to be annoyed by any level of schmoozing, joking, etc, Out of hand or not.

Whether technically correct or not - with no place for interaction on the forums they will become sterile and boring.

To the point that the quality of any help that is provided will suffer. Because less people will bother to read the forums.

So while many want the "Clique" to settle down, etc. I guess the point is , stifling the fun out of the forums isn't necessarily the best solution either.

But if thats what they want - okay I guess.

Reigning in the nonsense a bit is not an objectionable, I'll stand as one of the silliest peopel here. But i wouldn't want to see the pendulum swing the other way either, where there is nothing here but dry Q&A. I look to be entertained as well informed when I come here. Dedicate a small space a sub forum, or even a sticky in RA for the nonsense to be diverted to , ener at you own risk, and go ahead and moderate the rest of the forum to your hearts content. As someone had in their Signature a while back, *Walker?* It's an Internet forum. No one dies.

I hope we don't all focus on the question of "should silliness be allowed in the forums", (which I think for most of us is a non-issue that's been beat to death enough lately), and get distracted from the main issue of helping LL feel comfortable in re-establishing a 'General Discussion' forum. That was the thrust of Mal's initial proposal, and I would love to have the discussion turn to concrete ways that we can advance toward, if not concensus, at least some degree of broad agreement on new moderation that will make a General Discussion forum palatable.

You may note that I am assuming that those who wish to see it return are in the majority ... perhaps we should take a poll to determine that. As I take the sense of the discussion so far, folks who were around in the Bad Old Days think that the only way in which having a General forum would be acceptable is if moderation is very strict with respect to maintaining suitable respect between residents.

I deeply miss having a general forum. For me, its not a matter of 'acceptability' but 'viability'.

I think having fun threads is a good thing. Without strong moderation however, its really easy to go over the edge.

I have a confession to make: I've been re-reading the 4 threads I posted earlier. I'm finding myself driven to absolute laughter-tears by some of the comments made by Ulrika, and others. I'm sure others were as well while reading those posts at the time.

Thing is, I also know that many of the comments Ulrika was making were hurtful & mean at times. Yet I'm laughing..... jeez, I can't help it.

All this went down because the two overworked mods at the time (Jeska & Pathfinder) were insufficient, and threads had to go on for 20 pages of personal attacks before there was an intervention.

Fun threads are great, as long as no one gets hurt - and there's an active mod to ensure that doesn't happen

My proposal had nothing to do with the Bad Old Days, I watched them ebb and flow and wasn't much so much troubled as amused. My singular goal was fostering community which LL talks about often but usually works against. I mark today as merely another milepost on the road to community suffocation. I am not surprised, merely disappointed. But I've also become pretty inured to that here.

Thanks for the archive links! (I see what you mean: I've just had a laughing fit over Ulrika's "helpful" use in context of a certain Name as a verb.)

Overall, though, I find the history disturbing. So very toxic. And, seemingly, an abyss the edge of which is still very visible from where we are now. I guess the Great Reformation of the forums provided some barriers that have been effective so far, but they're not something I'd be eager to see tested.

I don't believe that a dedicated General Discussion forum is inherently vulnerable to this kind of abuse, but I see the need for "ample" moderation--something both Strife and Mal have expressed, with apparently somewhat different approaches to how it might be achieved.

I like to think that I keep a firm grip on the cliff face.

@Malachi: If I had the power to swear in new ResMods I would. Some of the ResMods did crack under the pressure and abuse the power, others just faded away slowly, the motivation sucked from them.

However this all shakes out, I hope that we all never lose our sense of humor, and don't take our place here, or In SL for that matter,too seriously.

@Strife: I gave you a prescription for new resmods, the community backing of that prescription, and offered you all the support you might need in that endeavor, you didn't deem it worthy of pursuit. Don't blame your bad situation on what powers you are alllowed, we gave you an alternative, you rejected it; blame yourself.

The other resmods cracked under the pressure, or had the motivation sucked from them, did they? Are you a psychoanalyst in your spare time? Could it perhaps instead be that they realized the futility of responsibility without authority and said "fuk dis"? I like my explanation better as it isn't so smugly condescending to your former peers.

Incidentally, dude, I gave you the opportunity to respond in public or private to my proposal, you picked the public route; that was your mistake, as you of all people should know that PMs are a better avenue for personal conflict resolution. Finally, we all know you have your heart in the right place. Keep up the great work. We do appreciate it.

I've only read a fraction of the 123 posts here...so I wanted to make number 124 by saying:

Yes, we need a GENERAL DISCUSSION forum. It's almost childish not to give us one, knowing that we are using RA as the general subset. On principle alone they mock us.

This really comes across as pretentious.

You had some ideas. A few people agreed with you. Thats all.

I must have missed the election where community backing was determined. I also missed the discussion where the feasibility of your "prescription" was hashed out.

You may think your way is the best way. Great. Others may too. Great. But you are speaking from the mountaintop for some reason.

Maybe back and edit out the word "MODEST" out of the proposal title.