Age verification

Before I say anything I am a mother of 2 and I do not condone child sex. HOWEVER there is many things in SL that is considered to be illegal in many countries including the US that still play out.

Snuff, Sodomy, Forced Sex, Slavery, Fellatio, Bestiality, Adultery, Pornography, Prostitution, Stealing, Con Artists, Scams, some countries you cannot show skin, Women working or running businesses, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexuals, Transgenders, Transsexuals, Heterosexuals, (yes I said Heterosexuals to some its abnormal!), Interracial coupling, different types of Religion, Fat, Skinny, Tall, Short, the color of your eyes and hair and the list can go on and on. All these considered illegal, abnormal, morally not accepted or disgusting to someone or somewhere in the world. With that being said it may very well be to some and may not be to others. It is all allowed here in Second life.

What age is an adult? In every country the age is different. It depends on the culture that you are brought up in. Now in some countries and even some of our own well known "respected" countries were based on marriages of quite older men to the very young (even as young as 12 yrs old could be even younger or even sometimes incestuous!).

Second life has stated you have to be 18 to play. Respect that. HOWEVER I will not tolerate nor stand to give a company more information than what I would be willing to give AOL, YAHOO or any of your other big Internet services and/or gaming companies. Nor should I have to pay for the fault of two consenting mind you adults who were caught doing something that was considered illegal. Two adults out of how many residents there are in the game? Now may I remind you that you are making everyone pay the price (literally pay higher price) than just dealing with 2 offenders you might as well take out everything I stated above, make sure everyone wears the same clothing (uniform like) and KISS your what was successful business goodbye. I guarantee that if you let this happen you will have every single organization from every ends of the earth coming at you with demands. Do not forget that you will have to completely re-design second life to match every ones likes and dislikes.

You have a TOS agreement and I can agree to basic accounts being charged a small fee to help weed out under agers. However to make it mandatory for more personal information to be given out to a company over the Internet, to pay more fees than we already have to, or to invade more on the privacy is and will not be tolerated by the majority. My giving you my credit card and regular information is proof enough in my book. If a child was to steal information from their parents in order to play then set something up on your billing information such as Billed by Linden Lab Adult Community something simple yet telling parents if they come across the billing statement it is more to it than just a game. For those without credit cards I am sure you can think of something that is along those lines or even have voice recording verification or signature required.

Let's face it your not going to 100% weed out all under agers NO MATTER what you do. Your not going to 100% please everyone either. Just saying don't make everyone who is here now pay the price of what was 2 others mistakes or your going to have more on your hands to deal with than you realize. Let it be up to the residents who make this what it is today and have them when they see something or someone being offensive or performing illegal acts to right click and report an offender and you look into the matter and take action.

BTW 2 other things... 1 is you cannot take out child Av's because then you would have to take out animal type Av's as well and other different types of Av's that disagree to someones likes or beliefs. Just because they play a child AV doesn't mean they condone child sex. They could be living their second childhood or they are in fact a dwarf/midget/little person/height challenged in real life. (See no matter what I said here I am certainly going to offend a small person even if I was trying to find the right word to use).

To the GLBT community the statement I stated before was no reflection, insult or purposely made the GLBT community to look bad in ones eyes. It was simply stating no matter who you are what you do someone is going to find something about someone that is abnormal, illegal, or whichever.

Linden Lab... see your not going to please everyone. Just don't upset the majority!

Atum (and everyone who doubts they mean what they said), my best advice for survival, unless you've personally been privvy to some information the rest of us do not have, is to err far further on the side of caution, here...

What IS entirely groundless is using optimistic speculation that they simply don't mean what they said, in the face of the written evidence to the contrary.

In fact, our best and safest approach to protecting our personal interests, until we DO have definitive policies verified by the source (ie corporate policy from Linden Lab) is to advocate the importance of our own agendae, for all we are worth.

Please don't see what we are saying as "Chicken Little stuff", and please let's don't take up everyone's time with constructive criticism based upon the same "premise" Atum does freely accuse others of, namely, treating speculation as fact.

But yesterday I gave away my land to another citizen who could absorb it into the parcels they all ready own at no extra cost.

This has cost Linden labs $25 amonth

I'm wondering how much more this fiasco has cost lindenlabs

I'm on a premium for 12 months but I intend not to renew it, so come january, thats another source of revenue lost.

I have jewish ancestors I'm am not registering period.

Errrm - i confess I'm too lazy to dig out thbe two or three relevant Linden quotes, but I base my view on remembrance of a very clear statement that the new "adult" land category will be a "per parcel" flag.

If setting such a flag on one parcel forced all parcels in the same sim to the same state, then it would not be a "per parcel" flag at all.

I too saw the other post which I thnk mentioned the word "region", but it seemed very clear to me that this was simply loose drafting, and it could not possibly be meant to mean anything as utterly ridiculous as a "perparcel" flag on one plot having a sim-wide effect.

It is I suppose just possible that the ambiguity arises from the fact that a private island is in some senses a single parcel owned by a single owner. But surely this interpretation died a long time ago, as island "parcel-renters" were given more and more of the same privileges as actual ownership. I cannot believe this principle would be reversed in this instance.

What would be the logic ?

It will be either parcel-wide (as very clearly and unambiguously stated) or sim-wide (as rather ambiguously hinted somewhere else). Since the latter would be both ridiculous and contradictory, my assumption is the former.

Mind you, this whole thing is so irrational, nothing much would surprise me.

Or maybe they will remove the irrationality, and introduce camera and viewing constraints to prevent peeking from non-adult into adult parcels. Without which the whole proposal is a farce, as any youngster could still see anything she liked just by manouevring her camera.

Since such a youngster must already have successfully cheated to be here at all, self-restraint can hardly be assumed !

I have Irish & German ancestors and probably some Roman & apes, does this make any difference to whether I should register or not?

i know. you responded to a quote by Atum..in which he was talking about the electoral roll in the UK?

i remember it being said in a few places. this is the most specific quote i can find right now:



from: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/05/07/more-on-identity-verification/

Well stated! I'm too much the pragmatic skeptic to take "good faith" on good faith, I guess. In days where we need to identity-verify in order to do that which we have already done...age-verify...these are liberties taken that have profound consequences for everyone here...personally I would prefer that Linden's team be engrossed in fixing those things they have successfully diverted our attention from...the grid (remember the Open Letter Project?) and customer relations...but at this rate, they will be caught up in federal test cases for years, all the way from the US District Courts to the EU to Australia, Asia and beyond...

Live Long and Prosper, my friends!

History does so much to teach so many so little! Give your identity information away, just remember, as Ceejay intimates, once you have given it freely it IS NO LONGER YOURS TO SAY HOW IT MAY BE USED!!!

Bravo. I have sold all my land but one piece - at a loss. I'm selling off everything I can in my inventory - at a loss. I was paying $75.00 a month tier to Linden Lab, now they are getting nada in tier from me. I have spent over $3000 to purchase fun stuff & land in SL - now I will spend nothing - a loss for all of the nice business owners I frequented out there. I'm still on a premium account for a few more months. If the verification plan goes through as is - I will sell my last bit of land to the first taker and either leave the game alltogether, or stay on an unverified freebie member just to watch everything crash and burn, for the hell of it.

Refusing to play by Linden Lab rules, when their rules obviously are ridiculous, pointless and damaging to a majority of their customers - is the only way anyone is going to listen. Money is the only thing that LL cares about. Thus, I'm taking my money out of SL forever unless they stop this nonsense.

Voting, complaining, yelling - none of it is going to even cause a hesitation in Linden Lab in doing whatever they want. Stop spending your money in their game - if enough of us do that - maybe they might take a minute to take the blinders off and look around.

Unfair, and insensitive, to boot!

This Age Verification proposal is SO stupid that it had to be inspired by lawyers, and is so inconvenient that it had obvious appeal to the Lindens . . . . who these days seem more intent on pushing the technical limits of SL rather than insuring that the paying customer has a satisfying inworld experience.
OK, so you get what you want. There are adult areas to which only age-verified players can go, but LOTS of people, often for very cogent reasons, don't want to give their ID details to either a 3rd party or to the lindens. So they are stuck outside the Adult areas; they can't buy penises, visit escorts, jump on poseballs and a host of other things. Oh yeah? You think so? Remember prohibition? So a vast 'illegal' network will ensue, selling xcite and dozens of other things, and all that will happen in the non-adult sims. You think that won't happen? You think, because some moron lawyer gives you advice, you can stamp out sex in Second Life? Meanwhile many sites that are adult will close down for lack of traffic. Land prices will fall. The sexual content of the game that was, to an extent, restricted to Mature areas, will spread to wherever a poseball can be rezzed and you don't even need a poseball; Sexgen sells a very handy rug that you wear. Hint).
No one wants child pornography on SL, and you think this will stop it? You will, at least, succeed in making the adult areas safe (thanks for that, I run an Escort Agency), but you will have moved the risk to the non-adult areas where non-verified perverts will meet whatever you might think.
This is not going to work. It would work if you made age-verification compulsory, but then you would lose so many players (and money) that it is unthinkable. So long as it is voluntary then you ensure that the underage players can still enter the grid, and make it possible for others to cater to their needs. You are trying to legislate human desire, and you'll fail as everyone has before, and in the process you will do unintended damage to SL and yourselves. There may not be a perfect answer to the problem, but the one you have devised is so clunky, so moronic and so imperfect that it really should be rethought - except it won't be. I've noticed that the Lindens are utterly bull-headed and totallt deaf to comments and forums. So why am I wasting my time? Sighs

and all because some "outside" media source caught two adults acting out a fantasy..and if anyone pipes up and says 'its sick' i'll scream..that means that every adult who did anything sexual before the legal age of 18 is sick..wether it was with your first BF or GF or reading that playboy that daddy used to hide behind the toilet or your first kiss or anything before the age of 18 having to do with sex.(and i don't buy that)

I know plenty of age play sims with highschool motiffes(everyone there is an adult RL) but yes..they get caught up in the great feelings we used to have as teens..all giddy..lovestruck..first kiss..and who knows..more?..and so for all those who think ageplay is 'sick"..remember where your'e drawing the line(you'll be asked not to 'ever" cross it again.)

Whats killing me is...we are debating bandaids on gaping wounds in our society today. We have 13 and 14 year old GIRLS on runway strips as "supermodels"...made up like the local prostitutes on the average city corner. We pump our beef soo full of hormones that the milk we drink is causing boys to get pubic hair at the age of 8 and girls to get breasts at the age of 10...and then..we sit back and wonder why?...why?..Why are men trying to meet girls to have sex?...could it be?...that maybe?.....our very own media condones it?..heck!! condones it!???...endorses it with a smile and "allow 6 to 8 weeks on delivery of your baby doll that has tits..dresses like a hooker and drives a corvette!"

I just wish there was an international law that stated "hey kids..we dont care if you're responsible or not. You sneak in here?...you pay the consequences. Your parents get mad?...too bad.They shouldve been watching you more."

It's not LLs responsibility to babysit those kids...nor is it our cross to bear to have to curtail our adult actions just in case some delinquent juvenile feels as if they know best by sneaking in.I have plenty of underage guys begging me on other websites to "get frisky".."send pics" etc. and i simply say "NO". and then i wonder...where the heck are those kids Parents!?

This whole idea that the children of today are innocents is just wrong! If theres not a pedophile out there looking for them..90% of those kids are looking to get in sexual trouble(one way or the other).Theyre begging for it...so...do we confront trying to fix an end result...of a muuuch bigger problem?or do we focus on the 'real" problems in our society?

The next time you turn on your saturday morning toons...take a long look at the 5 girls hosting a slumber party in make up..PJ's..and girating their hips as if they were Janet Jackson....and then.....maybe..just maybe you'll begin to understand who we "really" gave our children to.

~Lana Tomba

Stop living in the mid 20th century will you....................

How does that old saying go? Something like, "Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it?"

Please, identity verification is not the same as preparing an Endlösung to the Judenproblem by tagging people with a yellow star to make it easier to track them down and transport them to death camps. Shame on those who would trivialise the holocaust by implying any comparison like that exists. Show some respect.

And those who keep looking backwards often walk into trees or holes

I have Jewish ancestors (grandparents), I'd also like to know what this has to do with registering. It's neither unfair or insensitive.

If it's a comparison to persection from the nazis, it's an extremely inaccurate one. Nobody is facing forced slavery or gas chambers here. There may be brownshirts in SL, but they cannot physically harm anyone.
Besides, the Irish have faced their own share of persecution.

No I just asked what if you never registered in general - I didnt quote Atum

Is voter registration data needed for this system in the US?

Godwin's Law.

Finally!

Oops, I got the wrong end of the stick because your post came right after Atum's. Sorry Colette.

Edit: I don't think it is required for the US side of the system. That it may be required in the UK is just speculation.

uhm we are talking about "appearances". A "German" media group saw two adults acting out their "fantasy". Whatever their fantasy was..it 'appeared" to the german media to be a certain way that THEY(noone else) deemed to be unacceptable, and they "blew the whistle" by running to the lindens with snapshots.

It's about imposing ones views and beliefs on somone else because of appearances ALONE...(nothing more).
....so..forgive me if i happen to think that there is in fact a comparison. That comparison however in no way trivializes the holocaust. But..please..take a look at Hitlers biography as a young man. He was an artist..and artist that was not well received in the artists community at the time..and he was fanatical about any artist representing their works AS art. He felt as if the artist community as a whole were a rich overly spoiled underqualified group of people.

Not hard to connect the young Hitler with the older one really. He only took his hatred of self and inacceptance of anyone or anything else to the next level.

So lets get back to the current issue..the german media who decided they were the end all judge of what was right and wrong and what looked acceptable and what did not?
I dont need to make a comparison..it just is.

The fact that the lindens are trying to implement an age verification registration scheme is nothing more than to appease the german media.There will STILL be adults acting out fantasies that someone..somewhere..is going to deem unacceptable.So..Kudos to the lindens..maybe just the talk of age verification will shut the german media up..I can't believe that they'll actually be naiive enough to think that adult fantasies(whatever they may be) will end because of this.


~Lana Tomba

IF you do not understand how the science of propoganda works, it is very important to take the time to read now...these last two weeks of Linden blog and town meeting, whether you care to hear it characterized as such, and whether anyone ever intended, could be straight out of the textbooks that every army and government uses, in terms of population control and quelling of unrest.

And once again, Linden succeeds in embroiling the customer base in pointless vilification and thrust-counterthrust, against each other, thereby taking the pressure off themselves by allowing us to trivialize ourselves...

If there's one thing predictable about us, it is that we cannot and will not stay on point, in focus, on any issue of import, for long enough to achieve positive results...and as a consequence, we'll continue to wallow in mediocrity of our own making. It's remarkable, we play into their hands every time...and please don't later ask why nothing got fixed this time, either...

And as for looking backward in time for wisdom, and hitting trees from time to time, it is certainly preferrable to stumbling blindly over cliffs simply because taking the time to read the warning signs gets in the way of our determination to continue forward momentum in some futile effort to demonstrate that we are, in fact, still in control...

exactly! The Lindens have thrown out a decoy issue rather than addressing the REAL issue.

I could care less really about proving I'm old enough to be here.. I'm sure that certain people have very valid issues concerning this....but...beyond this...what scares me the most..



What scares me the most is the fact that someone can take a snapshot of me doing something private in a "mature" sim..(with another consenting adult)..make up some narrative to go along with that snapshot..and threaten the Lindens with "if they don't respond in an appropriate manner" they'll show it to an entire plethera of "rights" groups.

It's against TOS to copy chats in SL...isn't it? It seems like this is the perfect oppurtunity to take out the snapshot feature as well ....OK..we all know THAT's not going to happen. BUT..if i take snapshot of another avatar in Second Life...doing whatever..and i try to use it against them..someone needs to ask if I have written consent from that avatar to use that image..or something....cmon...We have to protect ourselves in Second Life as well as real life.

(From my understanding)These two people had their inventory ransacked by the Lindens because someone interpreted their actions to be 'illegal". And because the plaintiffs in the situation happened to have access to media..the Lindens complied and added extra oil to that particular "squeaking wheel".

PLEASE!! be worried more about the climate this creates for "free thinking" in Second Life.
Yea..from what i read these people were harboring some illegal material?...but let us not lose sight of the atrocity that led the Lindens to claiming those two adults inventory as their own. That atrocity being : Two adults...fantasizing with each other...using the "Ruth" avatars supplied to us by LL.(As far as Im concerned the starter avatar looks under 18 to me..she barely has breasts.) I wouldn't be at all surprised that if LLs starter avatar( with no alteration) were to wear a plaid miniskirt..with bobi sox..mary jane shoes and pigtails..that someone somewhere..would interpret that avatar as "being a child AV".

So..if the Lindens are going to make it a common practice to say "how high" when anyone at all says "jump". I believe the responsibilty falls on them to give the residents of Second Life a crystal clear definition of "what a child avatar is."

It's the very least they could do if they're going to go to all this trouble to oil that squeaking wheel with some decoy age verification announcement.


~Lana Tomba