Age verification

Seeing her sitting at a desk maybe but being "had" over a desk ?

That would put an end to all sex in publications if seeing someone having sex was likely to deprave and corrupt.

Sex between adults, no matter how they are dressed, is not depraving. I used to code a site that sold these sorts of uniforms, there's nothing illegal about them.
Sex with children, virtual or real is a whole different matter.

Ageplay is not illegal. It is going on but people dont look and see it. I have an ageplay event, to celebrate 20 years of being around. It is the oldest ageplay school, and if it was illegal it would have been closed. the authorities know it excists, as newspapers have tried to scandalise it several times. But we are doing nothing wrong.

Ageplay is not illegal as long as it is consenting adults

You all seem to be a smart bunch so I'll just get to the points.I'm all for protecting the kids from perverts. But kids wil be kids and the're all pretty internet savy. And trying to keep the kiddys from accessing something as interging as SL is like trying to stop a frieght train by walking in front of it, ain't gona happen. The only solution I see is that Linden Labs has to create two sepperate grids each on there on server. One for the kids one for us grownups. Set the adult site up just like any pornsite were you have to pay to get in. Then LL makes sure it says mature or adult or XXX on the credit card statement, so mommy and daddy will know what there kid is doing online. As far as the sick basterd pedophiles in SL how's the Linden's going to stop that? There computer savy also and LL is staring another frieght train in the face. If you boot them out whats gona keep them from logging in on another account. The only ones who can go after these assholes are the authoritys. Let the FBI's of the real world handle that. Just recently in the USA a 15 yearold got busted by accidentlly down loading child porn, The Feds know what there doing finding online predetors. And like you all say this is just a game a fantsy land your life your imagination. But it is also very much a buissness. So are we going to let a group of sickos ruin it? If this was in real life would you want a child molester living in your comunity? It's up to the citizens to police ourselves, not the Linden's. Lets find these pedophiles, and eradecate them. Then we can all go to the nudey beach and indulge our pixelated fantsies

Questions for Linden Lab:

What is the point of having a Teen Second Life if you are not going to age verify EVERY player of regular Second Life? Or is that your plan - to find some way to not have to run two versions?

What are you going to do to prevent “Adult” content from being seen from “non-Adult” areas. Such as the huge number of porn ads clearly visible from PG land. Or the ability to use a camera to peek into an Adult area?

How are you going to police the buying and selling of “Adult” products - especially those already owned - so that those products (such as beds & pose balls) are not used on PG land?

What about products such as video streamers that are PG in nature, but can be loaded with Adult material. Will sellers of those products have to tag their business as Adult? (A ridiculous question for a ridiculous plan.)

Will you refund all the people who bought Adult products who refuse to age verify and thus can no longer use those products due to YOUR policy? Or are you just going to say, again, this is VOLUNTARY?

Voluntary to buy something and then having it rendered useless because someone chooses not to give a Republican-PAC affiliated company enough personal information to choke you with? (And the whole "they won't store" information bit is crap. You have to imput it somewhere, it goes in a database, it may get wiped a minute later - but it's been on there, and a computer process or a live person has to compare that information, which means the information is accessible to hacking or theft. And we've seen how well companies who aren't supposed to "store" personal information have managed to have that non-existent information stolen and hacked over and over.)

How is it VOLUNTARY for someone who, for example, works a part time job selling adult-oriented products or running an adult-oriented business to age verify? Obviously you are telling them you MUST do this or you will lose your business. Period. Are you going to refund them for their land, their build, their lost sales? - Cause otherwise, it ain’t voluntary people.

What happens if I, refusing to age-verify, stumble into a business or property that isn’t flagged properly and has adult content? Are you going to ban me for their mistake or purposeful error?

What good does it to do flag “visual” content when people can carry out “adult” conversations not only on IM - but soon on Voice Chat as well? How are you going to police that?

Are you going to require a corporate entity to age-verify if they build something that might be considered “Adult” content? How about The L Word Island? I’m sure there are PLENTY of people out there who would say two female avatars hugging is offensive and “Adult” in nature, right?

Are nude skins Adult content? Are Pasties Adult Content? Is virtual kissing? Is virtual massage? Are gay couples Adult Content? Is a gay flag Adult content? (PayPal sure thinks so.) Is virtual Smoking adult content? What about virtual drugs like pot? Are stripper pole tables Adult content even if the person is clothed while using one? Are players whacking each other with virtual swords Adult content? Or just people shooting each other? Is having a slave Adult content even if the slave doesn’t do anything sexual? If someone runs nude through a PG area - is it Adult content - and who gets blamed for it? The land owner or the player?

How many more questions do you want that YOU have not even addressed, probably half of which you haven’t even considered or planned for? When are you going to see that you’ve opened a can of worms that you can’t possibly deal with without totally eliminating player created content? Or forcing everyone to age verify - which, in itself, is ridiculous because you have no way of knowing the person submitting information is the person it actually belongs to.

When are you going to admit that this is the worst idea in gaming history? And it is the total de-evolution of everything Second Life was supposed to be growing into?

And when are you going to stop posting the same "clarification" over and over and get to the meat of the issues your customers want to know about?

Finally, when are you going to simply admit that you are doing this to satisfy the Corporate machine and rake in money through landing corporate clients because you've told them you've roped off Adult content into safe little areas where it won't mar their pretty virtual corporate advertising?

And how long will my account stay active while I continue to rant against Linden Lab over this? Cause I'm counting the minutes until "Adult" content somehow includes protesters.

@Rusalka I am very glad that you reposted this comment from the blog to here on the forums. I was here to ask that you do just that and here I find it, great! I felt your post did a very excellent job of what many were trying to spout out before the 100 blog posts were filled, but did not want to take up a spot on the blog just to point yours out. I think all residents as well as LL should take a very close look at this very thought out post!

Very well done!

To Linden Lab:

Myself and many others are against the newly proposed age identification process.

First of all, it is illegal to use the social security card in the USA for anything other than what it is intended for... even though it is done. I am sure given the right circumstances a lawyer may like to make this his/her case.

Secondly, it is the same for other countries and furthermore, it is NOT done under any circumstances.

I seriously doubt this will protect you from liability claims.

What is to prevent a minor from taking their parents info, etc? This cannot be controlled.

Let us stick with credit card verification or simply "OK".

Minors are not allowed on SL adult grid, however the truth be known there is NO way to control minors coming and going and this will not protect yourself in a virtual world that spans and represents countries and cultures across the globe with different age laws and laws concerning the age verification process.

Many of us in Europe may not drive because we use the train, etc. Even if we do, I am not certain that we want to share our personal ID numbers with Linden Lab or its representative. I do not plan on it. No one I know shall do it and we all are premium customers, many who own land, some who have been long term customers.

Many customers who have been paying for years refuse to prove that they are of legal consent when in fact they have already proven it by the standards which were in effect upon their join date. We question the legality to ask a customer to verify their age again after Linden Lab has already accepted the registration and age proof verification that it currently had in place at the time of their registration. Perhaps this new process can be used for new residents but I seriously doubt from a legal perspective that it can be used for pre-existing residents prior to the new age identification process.

Some wonder why Linden Lab did not ask for this new information upon charging our credit card or paypal account for land, etc. for "x" number of months, years.

I am completely against the new age verification process and so is everyone else that I know.

How much money and how many customers do you plan to lose as a result of this before you finally realize that the new age verification process is the wrong method to use, especially with pre-existing customers? I seriously doubt that you will win many new customers either.

What will your sponsors or business partners or corporate clients think once you begin to lose massive customers? Will you think then only to realize that it is too late to undo the damage done?

Please bear in mind that SecondLife is not the only virtual reality program in the world. I am sure that others will come along, too. It is better to think this carefully through before you risk more than what you may be willing to lose in the end. Listen to the people. Many of us are unhappy as it is with customer service issues, high land fees and now this? What is next?


Vryl Valkyrie

Suzy Hazlehurst wrote:



Let me clarify. If someone wants to play in a child avi, that's not my business. But to me, an adult having sex with a child is never right, RL or SL. Allowing it in SL speaks volumes about LL. I have met some child avs and have no problem with them playing children, but when they are playing child 'escorts', it becomes my problem. We all know there are RL pedos in SL, and as both adult members of the SL and RL community, it is our obligation to stop it as best we can. LL should have put a stop to the child escort businesses right from the beginning, and we wouldn't be dealing with this identity verification now.



I suggested this, too. I doubt LL will wish to do this, though. If one wants adult access, one's CC should say Adult Level, or some such, on the CC billing statement.

Also, someone at the beginning of this thread asked about being able to send in a notarized statement verifying our age. I love this idea, and would be willing to do so, even though I'm not into Adult content, simply so I won't be restricted in SL. I will not deal with this third party they are proposing to give our personal data to. My business is with LL and I will not do any business with a third party, especially the one in question.

LL, would you be willing to accept a notarized statement from us, certifying that we are over 18? That would be a legal document, absolve you from legal problems, and protect our personal data. Sure, you'd have to have some people opening the paper mail, but then at least you would be doing the right thing by your customers. I'd be happy to pay 10 USD for that, but I will not pay 10L to that other company.

Theres a new Blog Post on Age Verification

Aperently to further define things -

However it is the same information presented in the previous 2 blog posts.

Questions I still have -

If the Flag mentioned in the 3 Blog Posts the SAME flag on Mature Parcels now - Or will it be a new one?

If its a new one will that mean we will have 2 FLAGS?

IF there is not a new, 2ND flag - how do you explain the disconnect between the new Policy and the Recent Search Change made to allow Mature Parcels show up on PG Places searches?



When you move to age verification HOW long of a grace period will we get?

I assume some time (a week?) will be given to sign up before we are required to set these flags - to allow people to go through this untested process.

Because I can't find a specific piece I want to keep in the quote...



A suggestion a friend of mine iRL had:

Reward players some amount of L$ for reporting abuse.
CHARGE players some amoutn of L$ for reported abuse that was not abuse.

Abuse falls into the catagories:
Adult content not marked as such (land, objects, textures, etc)
Avatar/Agent doind adult acts in non-adult place
Child porn
Any other TOS violations

I would have to say that the first report of the same instance would be the only one to get the reward to prevent too much inflation.

Not only does this encourage players to follow the rules it encourages to do acurate reporting of violations (rewarding them for proper ARs and punishing them when they make useless ARs). LL might even end up with a virtual police force--people who report problems to make money.

I'd rather Lindens, or duly appointed deputies did that. I don't like the idea of residents spying on each other, which is what it will become no matter what.

Yeah, I did try to explain that to him, but he (and another friend of mine) kept saying it'd work.

Too be honest i questioned wether or not i should even post here. Who is to say that anyone with a differing view or intellectual sidestep won't be scrutinized and all their textures and photos in their inventory poured over by some cheetoh eating, soda pop drinking Linden Lab employee until they find some reason to boot us all when we dont "fall into step".
This is a very slippery slope. Age verification won't fix this problem..and to try to mask it with an "age verification" announcement is a weak attempt to pacify some mis appropriated german media who simply want to control what we say, do and think. They clearly stated the female was 27 and the male was 54.(Where were the minors involved?) Im sure those two didn't say "oh yes HERE!..check out my inventory!". ( Think about it)
I've scanned over the previous posts and they all touch on things i wanted to say. What's next? Make sure that Ruth has boobs and introduce a male starter avatar that has pubic and facial hair to insure that some fanatic doesn't misconstrue their avatar as a child?
Plain and simple...unless LL decides to put great limitations on our creative ability here in Second Life, there will always be someone doing something illegal..pushing some type of limitation or social taboo...and there will always be some nosey outsider peering in deciding wether or not that is accepatable behavior to them...why?..because they are the "end all" in deciding what is right and what is wrong...correct?
I'm in no way saying that child pornography is right or should be legalized..it's certainly something that i wouldnt participate in..but at the same time i'm not going to run around with a ruler checking avatar heights and deciding wether those boobs are 17 year old boobs..or 18 year old boobs.
Who draws the line?...who makes the rules?..since Second Life is international..do we go with the lowest possible denominator in age acceptability and say 18?..in some states 16 is legal...do we have to state that we are from West Va. and have our parents permission to "act" like a 16 year old? Do we have to explain that we are roleplaying a 14 year old Pharoah who has considerably older wives because historically a Pharoahs lifespan was 17 years?
And then there's the entire non human factor. This world( Second Life) is "make believe'..It's virtual. Unless we have devised a way to peer into the private homes of people to see what they are doing or NOT doing while they 'make believe", I really have a problem with becoming the "avatar definition police"..or the "avatar action police".
In most states prostitution is illegal..if i'm caught being an escort do I claim to be from Nevada?..or Amsterdam?
I've seen alot of very strange and very questionable things in Second Life. Child pornography being the least prevalent by far. Either LL takes a very defined and inworld community respective stance on this or they open the flood gates for all types of people to come and decide for us what we "can' create or what we "can" or cannot look like....or for that matter...what we can say or cannot say.
I may scream "daddy' during cybersex..however..it doesn't actually mean that I'm fantasizing that I'm a minor and that my partner is an over 18 year old"daddy"....but..with open media sources being able to interpret my statements however they want..and then taking that interpretation and running with it to LL to "uncover" MY "immoral den of deviance" thats churning in MY sick head.. we are faced with the dilema that my intentions or "real" motives really dont matter.Correct?
Ya know..there was a time..not too long ago..in a country in europe somewhere..The citizens allowed one man to decide what was moral and immoral and accepatable and not acceptable. Neighbors turned in each other out of fear to the authorities. Millions were executed (even if they sympathized)Art was destroyed..books were burnt..free thinking ended. Its a little ironic that those who forget their past so easily are the very ones who seem to be recreating the scenario in a virtual world.
If people are on here and they're trading child porn pics, that's one thing.
But responding to a query about a snapshot of some "cartoon" that 'appears' to be a child?!
There's way too many assumptions and variables for me to be comfortable with LL encroaching on my privacy to verify or negate allegations from some third party as to what "my intentions' are.
This is what concerns me.

~Lana Tomba

Okay, LL should have done this, say at the very beginning. It's a good idea because I don't like playing with little, obnoxious kids. But why the hell is a 3rd party company handling our very personal information. Social Security numbers? Driver's License?? Passports??? What makes you think I'm going to be overjoyed about giving "total strangers" my information when I don't trust Linden with it 100%. Remember that little Linden hack not to long ago? You Lindens say this info won't be stored but that doesn't make me worry any less.


CS

The idea of age verification is a good one but you don't want to give up personal info to a 3rd-party site but, also, you don't want to give it to LL because they've had problems in this area before?

So, assuming that age verification is going to happen, how would you do it?

My concern isn't with supplying LL some personal info to make their jobs easier. We do it everyday for the privelage of using certain sites or pay sites..or credit cards etc.
Kids will always steal their older brother or sisters ssn # to sneak into Second Life. We know it's a common occurence. Addressing the whole underage over sexual generation is a completely different thread.
The REAL issue is if LL is setting up a precedent that will benchmark SL's evolution by saying "how high" when "anyone" ( with any agenda) decides to question someones intent.(whatever it may be)...according to how something 'looks".
Does anyone else see the ominous cloud on the horizon??

~Lana Tomba

I may be wrong but from what i read

* there was a sick dood who was like 50
* a sick chick who was like 20 something
*they were doing something gross which was illegal where they were from?
*they got busted and banned

Is it not end of story?

age verifying would not have prevented this
no kids were involved either

if LL wants to keep people from making kiddie stuff, they would have to limit how small an avie could be.
and if they want to keep kids out of the adult grid they are gonna have to meet every one of us in a coffie house because if credit card verifing isnt enough somebody tell Mr.Porno who will sell you goldfish porn if you got the digits.

LL needs to put its digital foot down and say,
*We aint the sex police!
*If it is against our TOS then we will bounce you
*If yall dont like it, then block SL from your citizens

I dont want to fork over a drop of info but I think LL should tell these countries that it is not their job to police what might happen between consenting adults for everybody because of the laws of one country that has access to this game.

the reason why they are asking for a fee is because if somebody comes here just for porn, they gotta pay like 10bucks which noobs who have no money will not have unless they provide some credit card or camp, which pedophiles apparently dont have the attention span to do.

this will keep escalating, if we all are forced to change,
Then the pedophiles will win

Kids dont come here to get molested- and if they came here to get lucky they are gonna have to pay for it

If something is illegal where the user is, its up to that user to accept the risk, and its up to law enforcement to prosecute,

we are all innocent until proven guilty
and in the states we have a right to have privacy in our homes and papers

and if that isnt good enough there needs to be an International Metaverse Law or some crap

well there's actually a long arm statute that allows for international laws to apply in cases like this.
The ONLY thing that I read that was 'illegal" was the material that these two people had in their private inventory(which obviously now we know..isn't private.)Also with recent internet child porn laws passed..even pictures drawn portraying children are illegal..so..maybe..maybe thats where this falls.("your avatar is drawn to resemble a child..there fore its not permissable."But i'd still like to see a clear definition of what a child avatar is.I know some people use height as deciding factor. If you do that..you're going to have alot of little people(adults) out there who play SL that will be miffed.;P
If they didn't have the forethought or sense to deny allegations of wrong doing and scream "But I'm a dwarf"..or "i'm suffering from a disease that makes me look wittle!". Then they were banned for stupidity and solely to make the german media go away.
Everyone wins..LL looks as if they addressed the "bad pedophile adults"..(who were playing with each other) and the german media feels as if they have 'righted' a dire injustice being played out in the head of some..."cartoon". Even the idiots who were banned won't be prosecuted..for what?..virtual cartoon sex!? Prove that in any court of law and I'll be curious to see how it's done.
Ultimately LL doesn't want to police us. BUT they have to address the occasional "pyromaniac" who wants to start a fire in the ethics dept. of LL.
I'm sure LL is watching out for our rights..but please..don't placate to us or patronize us with some smoke screen called "age verification".

~Lana Tomba

Is there something I am missing?

Is not every sim labelled "Mature" already indicating that it contains adult content ?
Is there a semantic game being played ? What category of content is it that is "mature" without being "adult". What sort of content that we should expect if we enter land that is "mature", but not flagged as "adult".

This is surely nonsense, and to make it rational the "adult" flag should replace the "mature" category. How can they logically exist alongside each other ?

Mature sims can have mature content. There's no rule that says they have to have it.

This whole thing is beyond stupid. First they remove any gesture at assuring that onle 18+ get on the grid. Now they're going overboard to try to determine ages (while not even requiring it of everyone). Stupid, stupid, stupid.

It's about like if I ran a bar, removed the guy who was checking ID's before letting people in, opening the doors wide allowing anyone in, and then walking around checking ID's after everone has gotten a beer.

If we get just the one flag - I think Mature parcels that are unflagged are the same as PG parcels.

Especially if they are listed on Places - becuase of the store rules.

If theres two flags - then there might be some more than PG activity thats isnt explicitly Sexual , violent , etc.

However theres only a couple of things I can think of that fit in that middle ground

Basically killing, Nudity, and Strong Language. I see this as a pretty narrow window, maybe simply allowing lingerie/ skin shops and combat zones.

Graphic killing, Nudity involving anything sexual , and sexual or extrmely violent conversations - would need flagged Adult.

Thats all just my opinion.

This is absolutely wrong. In 2002, after strong democratic pressure, the Uk Govt modified the law to allow electors to choose to ban all commercial access to their record, so that it is available only for Govt and electoral purposes.
This option has very substantial take-up, including many people known to myself, who access SL.

Integrity will be totally unable to find the existence of any of these people via the electoral roll.

These proposals will cripple these people's SecondLife access.

Personally, I am resident in tiny European country which has none of these databases and identity systems except for passports and drivers licenses, which they will not allow anyone but governments or police forces to access.

So thats my access crippled too.

All this crippling for a totally illusory protection which does absolutely nothing to reduce the incidence of minors cheating their way into the grid.

Things aren't this simple. SL are not dealling with morality, logic, or opinion. They have to deal with LAW.

Very few of you seem to be aware that (unlike the USA) it is, in many European countries, illegal to possess artificial, simulated or synthetic pictures of minors participating in sexual acts. Exactly as illegal, and exactly as firmly punished, as possessing real pictures in which real children were harmed.

There are substantial numbers of European citizens imprisoned right now for creating (or possessing) such pictures (and only such pictures) on their computers, and placed on sex offenders registers along with real-life offenders.

So you see, by allowing age-play in SL, the Lindens are supporting the internet distribution of images which in many jurisdictions are every bit as illegal as the real thing. Moving, interactive versions even.

You must see that this IS a problem, and one SL must take seriously.

But, except in the mind of the very muddled, this has nothing whatever to do with the need for age-verification in SL.

but still..noone is addressing the issue that led to these people being caught for having that material.Will someone PLEASE somewhere tell me where I can find the measuring stick to determine what a "child" avatar is??.
If i choose to wear a child Avatar (which are sold for perfectly innocent reasons in second life). Will my privace be threatened?..will some "watchdog" group begin chasing me thru the virtual streets of second life blowing a whistle?...heck if i wear pigtails and suck a lolipop with boobs and am 3 feet tall..will someone misconstrue that as a child avatar looking for sex? ..and if all that can happen?...am I protected?..no.

~Lana Tomba