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New identity authentication system?

Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
04-06-2007 12:25
From: Colette Meiji
whoa lol

Im not putting my PHONE number out there for people to get.

I dont want them to know my city either. Basically NO ADDRESS!

Nor my real name.

State, country, age, marital status, gender, what kind of foods I like - lol these are okay

But I dont want any mouth breathing loser calling me up from the payphone downtown and telling me hes only a couple blocks away can we go on a RL date?

lets do lunch :)
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-06-2007 12:32
hehe, well it should never ever be mandatory, and depending on what you spend your time doing in SL there's certainly plenty of valid reasons not to make yourself too easy to find. My point is that there's a big disconnect between the way we tend to deal with people in the real world and the way we do on the internet. Anyone you meet in the real world, through work, or at a bar, or on the sidewalk, or anywhere else, has just as much potential to be a frightening nutcase as someone met online, yet online people attribute a much higher level of danger. That's just never struck me as particularly rational, especially when you consider how identifiability and accountability tend to go hand in hand.
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RobbyRacoon Olmstead
Red warrior is hungry!
Join date: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,821
04-06-2007 12:39
From: Peggy Paperdoll
I welcome a way for us to know if we are dealing with reputable people or scoundrals.


I don't remember getting the impression that this kind of information would be enabled by what LL is proposing, and I would be very very nervous indeed were that the case. I don't think it is in LL's best interest or in the best interest of Second Life as a whole, to have Linden Labs making that determination.

You've already got the Seller's Guild and all the other gossipy channels of information both in and out of Second Life to decide what someone's reputation is.

As for having an opt-in alternative means of providing identification to Linden Labs, I think it is well worth hearing more about what they plan, because it seems likely that it would be something I would agree with.
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Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
04-06-2007 12:42
From: Chip Midnight
hehe, well it should never ever be mandatory, and depending on what you spend your time doing in SL there's certainly plenty of valid reasons not to make yourself too easy to find. My point is that there's a big disconnect between the way we tend to deal with people in the real world and the way we do on the internet. Anyone you meet in the real world, through work, or at a bar, or on the sidewalk, or anywhere else, has just as much potential to be a frightening nutcase as someone met online, yet online people attribute a much higher level of danger. That's just never struck me as particularly rational, especially when you consider how identifiability and accountability tend to go hand in hand.



Actually, the difference is that in RL we meet people. We can judge them by their actual appearance, the way they carry themselves and how they speak. Sure, they can still be psychotic, but at least in appearance and what we are able to judge, we can then chose to give them the information.

On the internet, there is absolutely no real way to tell if someone is telling you the truth or just selling you a big lie. You don't get to see the person on the other keyboard and chances are, you never will. We're going to be more cautious on the internet because of this. Besides, it's not like we haven't had it drummed into our heads as kids to never give out your personal information to strangers and NEVER post it on the internet.

It is rational and logical. We are paranoid.. but that's not part of the topic, so I'll leave off there. As long as it's opt in, I'll be happy.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
04-06-2007 13:09
I don't think we should give anymore than we do now, a CC number, name & country, maybe a computer ID.
I just can't work out how LL expects to implement an ID system without using bank details. Only way I could see it working was if you had to get verified as not being underage or a griefer by an longer term existing resident who had used their CC details. And say if you turned out to be an idiot this ability of the verifying resident was revoked for a period.
Jack Belvedere
GOHA Commissioner
Join date: 4 Aug 2004
Posts: 270
04-06-2007 13:25
From: Peggy Paperdoll
I really don't think Robin Linden was saying the other residents would know that Peggy Paperdoll is really Elain Evans living at 4321 50th St in Des Moines, Ill and is a 75 year old twice divorced single great grandmother with an annual income of 500 million USD.


Des Moines is in Iowa, and anyway that's the address of Taco Bell.

;)
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Bree Giffen
♥♣♦♠ Furrtune Hunter ♠♦♣♥
Join date: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 2,715
04-06-2007 13:50
It would be nice if the Lindens wouldn't list our ACTUAL age if we choose that option to reveal about ourselves. Something like -Bree Giffen is over 21- would be preferable and would be all that is needed to protect ourselves legally.

As for age and location verification I see it as two pieces of the puzzle. We have two problems: ageplaying and gambling. I see the age verification as a way for ageplayers to exist in SL and I see the location verification as a way for casinos to exist in SL.
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
04-06-2007 13:52
From: Jack Belvedere
Des Moines is in Iowa, and anyway that's the address of Taco Bell.

;)


Des Plaines is in Illinois. I don't know where the Taco Bell is however. ;)
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
04-06-2007 14:23
From: Jack Belvedere
Des Moines is in Iowa, and anyway that's the address of Taco Bell.

;)



So that part about me being a multimillionair is blown? LOLlolol
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
04-06-2007 14:33
From: Chip Midnight
hehe, well it should never ever be mandatory, and depending on what you spend your time doing in SL there's certainly plenty of valid reasons not to make yourself too easy to find. My point is that there's a big disconnect between the way we tend to deal with people in the real world and the way we do on the internet. Anyone you meet in the real world, through work, or at a bar, or on the sidewalk, or anywhere else, has just as much potential to be a frightening nutcase as someone met online, yet online people attribute a much higher level of danger. That's just never struck me as particularly rational, especially when you consider how identifiability and accountability tend to go hand in hand.

Partly because - unlike in real life, though YOU may be well identified to other people, the other people won't necessarily be.

There really is nothing in real life that requires us to broadcast our age and location to a vast number of total strangers who have no checks on themselves. (For example, though the IRS knows who and where we are, and everything else, the IRS workers who view this information must likewise be identifiable.)

I'm hoping and assuming that this won't be something required of people. If I have to broadcast my personal details just to go into a bar in SL, or whatever, I simply won't go.

If it got to the point, however, where I can't sell my houses without being forced to identify myself to hoards of faceless avatars, I will just have to stop selling houses. It surely won't come to that.

coco
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Peggy Paperdoll
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Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
04-06-2007 14:35
I still don't think Robin Linden said or even implied that personal information (even your location) would be given out to any other resident. Just a yes (or gold star next to your Avi name) that tells others that you have, indeed verified who you are, and that you are of age and responsible for your actions. That would give some confidence to other residents that Peggy Paperdoll is listed in a secure database held by LL that could be accessed if a legal need arises. I would think most anyone would like that star next to their name......unless you are into something shady or even criminal.

I don't want to deal with shady people or criminals. Any method of verification can be duped or gotten around...........but only the determined will do that. Most of us would never leave our doors to our real homes unlocked while we went on vacation for a month but locks are no deterent for a career burglar. Right now we, in SL, have no locks to even turn.

It's a good idea. I like it.
Faybot Foxley
Morgana Le Fey's Landbot
Join date: 3 Apr 2007
Posts: 166
04-06-2007 14:36
From: someone
=Robin Linden the identity authentication system that we’re working on will allow you to verify aspects of your real life identity, such as age, or geo-location. It’s fully opt-in, and our current thinking is it would replace the ‘payment info on file/used’ system of verification.


I'm not sure I understand what they are proposing to do. When you verify your information now, it includes your age, sex, full name, phone number address, and credit card numbers. How would that be any different than what is said above? Now they want my social security number as well? Can I trust them with that when their database has a reputation of being hacked into? Maybe they are just suggesting we can make it available to everyone else. Why would I want to do that on the internet? I don't think that is safe regardless of your age. It sounds like it would turn into another myspace.com, and it wouldn't be long until someone hunts someone else down and there is some kind of horrific killing reported on the news.
Faybot Foxley
Morgana Le Fey's Landbot
Join date: 3 Apr 2007
Posts: 166
04-06-2007 14:37
From: Robin Linden
the identity authentication system that we’re working on will allow you to verify aspects of your real life identity, such as age, or geo-location. It’s fully opt-in, and our current thinking is it would replace the ‘payment info on file/used’ system of verification.


I'm not sure I understand what they are proposing to do. When you verify your information now, it includes your age, sex, full name, phone number address, and credit card numbers. How would that be any different than what is said above? Now they want my social security number as well? Can I trust them with that when their database has a reputation of being hacked into? Maybe they are just suggesting we can make it available to everyone else. Why would I want to do that on the internet? I don't think that is safe regardless of your age. It sounds like it would turn into another myspace.com, and it wouldn't be long until someone hunts someone else down and there is some kind of horrific killing reported on the news.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-06-2007 14:40
From: Faybot Foxley
I'm not sure I understand what they are proposing to do. When you verify your information now, it includes your age, sex, full name, phone number address, and credit card numbers. How would that be any different than what is said above? Now they want my social security number as well? Can I trust them with that when their database has a reputation of being hacked into? Maybe they are just suggesting we can make it available to everyone else. Why would I want to do that on the internet? I don't think that is safe regardless of your age. It sounds like it would turn into another myspace.com, and it wouldn't be long until someone hunts someone else down and there is some kind of horrific killing reported on the news.



sides - they cant even keep your name straight
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-06-2007 14:41
From: Cocoanut Koala
I'm hoping and assuming that this won't be something required of people. If I have to broadcast my personal details just to go into a bar in SL, or whatever, I simply won't go.


They've already said it'll be opt-in I think. Out of curiosity, would you be more likely to trust someone who identified themselves fully or who was completely anonymous? Anyway, all that's a bit hypothetical since all that was mentioned was the ability to have age and jurisdiction verified (probably no finer grained that state, or even just country).
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
04-06-2007 14:44
From: Bree Giffen
I see the age verification as a way for ageplayers to exist in SL and I see the location verification as a way for casinos to exist in SL.

Age verification is a way for pornography to exist in SL, independently of sexual ageplay. In the US, at least, it's often the case that pornography that is legal in many circumstances becomes illegal when it's made available to minors. I don't know how that works in other countries.

I expect that political pressure will result in additional attempts to criminalize sexual ageplay, whether or not there's any reliable age verification system in place. Implementing such a system may deter such legislation, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Nevertheless, it's important to recognize that there are legitimate reasons, other than sexual ageplay, for Linden to want better age verification. Otherewise some people will try to make it seem like Linden is only doing this in order to support ageplay, which is surely unfair to Linden.
RobbyRacoon Olmstead
Red warrior is hungry!
Join date: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,821
04-06-2007 14:46
I can think of one useful way that such information could be used... I recently joined a partnership of individuals who were (quite justifiably) nervous about letting anyone have access to their code and processes. In the end, we all ended up signing RL non-disclosure agreements, but even then they still have to trust who I say I am to some degree. If there were a way for me to have "authorized" just that select group of people to verify my real-world identity (and specifically to unambiguously connect it to my Second Life avatar), it might have made the whole process just a bit easier I think.

And some people (like big RL corporations) will undoubtedly choose to have such information publicly accessible to some degree just for the consumer confidence aspects.

Having said that, I have some degree of paranoia about Linden Labs having information like that, and if it were not opt-in it would be a complete deal-breaker for me to be interested in Second Life.
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Cocoanut Koala
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04-06-2007 14:47
From: Peggy Paperdoll
I still don't think Robin Linden said or even implied that personal information (even your location) would be given out to any other resident. Just a yes (or gold star next to your Avi name) that tells others that you have, indeed verified who you are, and that you are of age and responsible for your actions. That would give some confidence to other residents that Peggy Paperdoll is listed in a secure database held by LL that could be accessed if a legal need arises. I would think most anyone would like that star next to their name......unless you are into something shady or even criminal.

I don't want to deal with shady people or criminals. Any method of verification can be duped or gotten around...........but only the determined will do that. Most of us would never leave our doors to our real homes unlocked while we went on vacation for a month but locks are no deterent for a career burglar. Right now we, in SL, have no locks to even turn.

It's a good idea. I like it.

Oh yeah? Well, in that case, I might do it.

In fact, in that case, it would like like most of us will pretty much HAVE to do it, so that we don't look shady for NOT doing it. Who knows - we'll have to wait and see, I guess.

coco
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Peggy Paperdoll
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Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
04-06-2007 14:49
From: Cocoanut Koala
Partly because - unlike in real life, though YOU may be well identified to other people, the other people won't necessarily be.

There really is nothing in real life that requires us to broadcast our age and location to a vast number of total strangers who have no checks on themselves. (For example, though the IRS knows who and where we are, and everything else, the IRS workers who view this information must likewise be identifiable.)

coco


But, unlike SL, in real life there are enforcible laws and avenues through some sort of legal system that helps protect us from that small percentage of the population that abuses us. With the hands off attitude of LL that says everyone must develop their own way of protection from the few you get what SL is experiencing now.......suspicion of nearly everyone. The honest being hurt as much as the innocent and "criminals" laughing at how easy it is to take assets from others. With some reasonable method of finding those "criminals" everyon gains.

LL obviously does not want to be a governoring entity.........but they will have to be if they expect to survive. No community, real or virtual, can last under anarchy. Changes are coming. I hope the changes are enough to help SL survive.
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
04-06-2007 14:49
Along with No Voice Enabled, we can use No Personal Information given as a reason to shun someone.... :p
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-06-2007 14:50
From: Brenda Connolly
Along with No Voice Enabled, we can use No Personal Information given as a reason to shun someone.... :p



Second Life really was so much simpler once
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
04-06-2007 14:50
From: Chip Midnight
They've already said it'll be opt-in I think. Out of curiosity, would you be more likely to trust someone who identified themselves fully or who was completely anonymous? Anyway, all that's a bit hypothetical since all that was mentioned was the ability to have age and jurisdiction verified (probably no finer grained that state, or even just country).

Well, that's kind of an odd question for me, really, because I mostly don't have any need to trust people, and also because I just mostly trust people, until they give me some reason not to.

For instance, the unverified is just totally meaningless to me. Doesn't matter to me, in my business, if people are unverified or not. And I make friends with people without looking to see whether they are verified or not.

So I dunno . . . I guess it would make no difference to me. But it might make a difference to some of my customers, in which case, I'd need to do it.

coco
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Cocoanut Koala
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04-06-2007 14:53
From: Peggy Paperdoll
But, unlike SL, in real life there are enforcible laws and avenues through some sort of legal system that helps protect us from that small percentage of the population that abuses us. With the hands off attitude of LL that says everyone must develop their own way of protection from the few you get what SL is experiencing now.......suspicion of nearly everyone. The honest being hurt as much as the innocent and "criminals" laughing at how easy it is to take assets from others. With some reasonable method of finding those "criminals" everyon gains.

LL obviously does not want to be a governoring entity.........but they will have to be if they expect to survive. No community, real or virtual, can last under anarchy. Changes are coming. I hope the changes are enough to help SL survive.

But that's just what I mean. The criminals aren't going to provide this information! So why should I? But as someone else suggested, it might just be a gold star sort of thing, which wouldn't be so bad.

coco
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-06-2007 14:53
im wondering -
Arent those of us allready "Payment info used" already Verified?

Other than allowing people to know where im from (country/state) how does this further effect me? My state and country were on my billing address after all.

I was assuming this would apply mostly to people who havent wanted or havent been able to provide proof of age / location already.
Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
04-06-2007 14:56
From: Cocoanut Koala
But as someone else suggested, it might just be a gold star sort of thing, which wouldn't be so bad.

coco


That was me :)
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