Class action suit: SL Businesses VS Griefer

Lawyers are scummier than greifers.....no thanks

After the first long winded post on economics I stopped reading, but not before I realized tha thread is 8 months old. how the hell did you find it?

Search feature. And LL keeps encouraging necro-posting

Struck me as odd that someone would search out a thread such as that, and pretty much post a "neener-neener".

If they can't get into the world and they can't access support, what else can we expect? They are going to be bored after all. I mean, I can get in world (if I wanted.. I hope) and I'm still posting to this thread. I'm bored after all.

What I love about Second Life is how the combination of anonymity, potential for real profit, and economic anarchy leads to hypocrisy and bizarre conclusions.

Having a class-action lawsuit against "griefers" is absurd on its face, just as business owners trying to launch a lawsuit against criminals would be absurd. "Here's these people who are all super-bad and I want to sue them all."

The use of the term "griefer" in Second Life to conjure up irrational fear is very similar to the RL use of the term "terrorist" by governments. The common thought is that there is a huge subculture of recreational griefers whose purpose is to destroy Second Life. The Patriotic Nigras, a silly group of teenage males who are the largest griefer group, still have next to no impact on the grid at large. The so-called "threat" is minor.

The largest group of "griefers" are business owners themselves. The most lucrative businesses in Second Life- fashion, sexual stuff, and weapons, very often grief one another by hiring people to do their dirty work or taking measures to ensure their main account is not caught. There's many successful and "established" business owners who will grief their competitors to try to drive sales towards themselves. Then such janus-faced people will turn around and themselves complain about grief. Even a very well-known land baroness helped establish her business early on using land extortion, which is one of the most destructive forms of grief. Add to this product copycatting, back-stabbing, swindling and cheating, and one finds that the griefiest group of people are not the unverifieds, but people who have much invested in the game.

*looks around her city*

*Looks at Clippy*

Um.. heh.

I'm sorry, gold IS worth $400+ an ounce SIMPLY because we say so.

I could ask the question, 'What is the real worth of the Mona Lisa?' In reality it is probably about £1.50 for the wood, minus how much it would cost to remove all that used paint.

If it was offered for sale how much would it fetch? God alone knows. Not because it has any intrinsic worth, but simply because people would be prepared to pay that amount.

How much is it worth to put the number 270 on my SL screen? About £0.50, because that's what I'm prepared to pay for that privilege.

I get paid more of those Lindens, not for gambling, or even gaming, but for the time I'm prepared to sit in front of a computer screen, pushing prims around to make a shape that some person is paying for.

Do I claim my SL expenses on my RL tax form? I certainly do. When I trade Lindens for pounds, will the UK Inland Revenue expect me to pay tax on it? You better believe it.

Hate to inform you L$ is real money if its bought and sold with USD then it is considered real Money

Yep...and the money in my bank account was printed by Parker Brothers.

Maybe you meant something else, but as stated, you're wrong. Otherwise, my house, my car, my clothes, nearly any item of value would be considered "money". And that simply is not the case. "Money" = currency and just "anything of value" is not equal to currency (money).

For those that spend 500 dollars in real dollars per week on a classified ad, I'm sure they would disagree that downtime doesn't cause lost profits. Fake money, nope. Surely if you had 150000K in Lindens you would be more than happy to give that fake money too me then right?

I'm against griefers as much as the next person but even though we like to say SL is not a game, as such, it is really is just a computer game and so griefing is really just a form of cheating or spoiling the game. So unless the griefer is actually trying to undemine the whole system and destroy the intellectual property of Linden Labs I can't see it's a legal issue, more an issue of SL rules and what you do about infringement. Permanent bans and more effective ways of stopping banned griefers from re-joining under different names is the way to go.

Theft of Linden dollars on a large scale is the one exception I can think of because if a griefer devised a way of emptying peoples' accounts into their own they could become very rich. If those stolen L$ could then be shown to have been converted to RL currency, then a RL crime has definitely been committed.

Vamoose claim jumpers!

I'm stakin' this heeyah claim!

Imma get me a whole wagon load o' Linden nuggets!

Yeeehawww!

If L$'s have no 'value' why can't we make them ourselves like prims from a menu? Simply because they represent a trading 'cupon' which when cashed in at some point, do actually represent a true value. To say SL is under a 'gambling' senerio, is like saying RL business isn't real, but just another form of gambling.

Quite a few poeple I know ingame, do actually survive on the profit they make as an income, for various reasons such a disability which prevents them from working in RL. If I make and sell something, that someone then buys using a 'cupon' which I then trade out through the exchange and get an increase in my wealth, how can you say that 'cupon' holds no value?

SL is a trading commerce platform much like an international market, that uses a international trading currency that can be converted into any countries currency at the point of withdrawl. To say SL is no more than a game, is like saying the stock exchanges are big boys monopoly and only appears as a game for those that frequent a single layer of the whole platform.

I can do business in SL, that results in my being paid in RL direct to my bank, the business I do in SL and I get 'paid' ingame for, ultimately culminates in an increase in my bank balance when I cash in the profit 'chips'. How can anyone say, it's not real? The only way that could be true, is there was no connection between the real world and the virtual world, and the 'currency used ingame' was of no value outside of the game. As this is not the case, the argument is invalid.

The posters question about the validity of creating a lawsuit against anyone causing a loss of profit, is valid and potentially viable, until you reach the point whereby no one outside of SL, actually sees this as no more than a game. The only lawyer that would take you seriously, would have to be involved with SL in the first place and be able to assess the true nature and potential of the platform.

I agree that Lindens as a currency have no direct value, and that harm is actually being done in the real world by the damage to sales in the virtual one, or the direct theft of virtual currency with the intent to convert it into real world currency.

I disagree with the position that a law suit would necessarily be laughed out of court on the basis of damages estimated in virtual currency. What counts is the conversion of the game tokens into real world currency, and at that point damages can be calculated in real world dollars.

I agree with the main premise, though, that a law suit - especially a class action suit - wouldn't go very far very fast, but not for the same reason.

I think it would be a non-starter because the only people who benefit from this type of suit are generally the lawyers who file them, and we're not talking about significantly large amounts of money. The losses are not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even in the tens of thousands. It's a hundred bucks here or there. For the average lawyer, that doesn't even cover the phone bill.

Ultimately you have 2 choices for persuing a 'lawsuit' in SL... and neither could be classed a anything to do with RL law, only ingame 'laws/rules' stated by the custodians LL. If a lawyer WERE to frequent SL and offered their services, he could only potentially quote TOS, which is THE only agreement every player agrees to abide by at point of entry, no 'lawyer' would, or could hold juristiction over another player outside that framework, not have the ability to impose any form of judgement. To be honest, IF such a lawyer was to offer services in game, what would their potential income be? a couple of hundred L$'s, maybe a thousand?

Choice 2, is to support and use other forms of organisations that seek to gain amicable 'settlements' between players, like SLBB. A vast majority of claims are settled when the emotions die down and reality of what has been said and agreed but 'forgotten'. It also does an excellent job of hilighting and reporting those cases to the SL masses, so it is THEY can make their own judgments.

IMHO, there is no precedence for 'external' law suits, or ability to make it stick, unless a corporate like IBM has been directly effected by an individual or individuals, causing them losses, and the culprit is identified in RL.

In my opinion any of us residents bringing a class action law suit against anyone, be it the greifers or LL would be silly and the resulting losses in terms of the many possible ramifications would make our losses far worse than any griefer could cause.

LL is only guilty of horrible customer service and a complete lack of concern for anything other than large corporations trying to spoil the economic infrastructure of second life for the average player and small business owner (note Nissan Island and thier perfectly scripted and completely free cars). And this I doubt has any legal precedent.

I think the practical thing for LL to do (if they know the word) would be for they themselves to bring up cases against griefers to make an example and show other griefers that messing with this virtual economy is messing with peoples RL income and thus has very serious reprecussions. Especially since LLs experiences a very real loss from these issues. With 1.5million US passing hands everyday, 8 hours of downtime is a serious blow to LLs daily income.

As for some people claiming this is only a game and people dont make money in here, trying reading newsweek or time or forbes magazine. Some people make 6 figure digits every year from this game. Me and my SL wife and RL girlfriend make all of our income from this game and do quite well. So no this is not just a game to everyone involved. If you spend your RL money and purchase linden dollars and come to our shop to buy something then you should definitely understand this and stop posting ignorant and flaming comments just so you can see your name in print.

Thats my rant thanks for reading

Hehe Victoria Well said

*moves to CVF*

well after not finding a 1/2 sim for under 2000.00usd i said the heck with it and got a whole sim... well the sim next to me wont stop the constant attracks; nothing but punk little kids...
IS THERE ANY HINT / TALK OR ANYTHING of linden allowing banning of groups>?>> my list is starting to fill and no where close on their 3 groups and now there umm 2 more groups of people.... this is nuts!

I am starting to think of selling my sim and telling linden where to go cause theres nothing i can do

I can not run a public sim persay with fishing ect and have smoke bombs traps, and crap running people away... and i can not stand guard 24/7 linden has done nothing...really..

but what do they care they got the money already..

maybe we need to sue LINDEN for a solution?

PROFIT SHEEES H THIS SIM IS A COMPLETE LOSS.... I CANT EVEN BREAK EVEN... that all I wanted to was cove the tier.... this game is fun??? more like a job I do not want.
OWNER OF FEYADOR SIM..

DJTeddyB Rockin

I don't support unfairness.

You saying that I can get gaming income listed as on tax paper will be hard to believe by the IRS. Haven't you been around when the US made online gambling illegal? So that being illegal, we putting income as selling drug on the paper? Right!

IRS audit agent "Show me the reciept to prove that you making money online".

*Showing a receipt that you made money from Second Life

IRS audit agent "I am sorry but that not tax related".

-Declined-

For me it is better to make Second Life income as non-taxable than for us to give up our right just because some people are careless about their business in Second Life. I think shutting up the people who whining over their carelessness will make our income easier. More complaint and whine, more freedom lost and turn over to the IRS after Congress signed the bill. By the way, inviting IRS and other to dictates or "controlled" with the power to punish people is like inviting socialism. Any government control is bad.

Read the fine print in Linden Lab and tell me? If Linden Lab reserved the right to close down your account, they have the higher admininstrator authority to decides whether or not it is real or not. It like telling your parent well it MY MONEY but your parent said YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to sell it UNLESS .... Now the table of ownership is turned toward the REAL owner. You are just a pawn and a Linden hype fan as Linden Lab wanted people like you that way.

Linden Lab is a viritual world and I get paid in real money!! Huh? ???

People would call me nut! But don't worry, perhaps the newer generation will replace the older generation that believe otherwise.

Remember how ATM machine was nut for the senior people? If it took that long for people to adapt with that technology then it sure going to take several years for Linden Lab to be accepted by the majority of US american. Magazine, news articles, and word of mouth isn't enough if HYPE is being inflated over realisticness.

It IS bullshit AND a dream, because LL has almost no interest at all in stopping griefers, period. That's a fact, jack.

Now you get to ask yourself the question: Is this interest in a lawsuit because you want some cash, or is it because you want the griefing to stop with your business?

If its the latter (that means the second one), then there are far cheaper, faster, and more effective ways to take care of your griefing problem. However, it does require reading instructions and doing a little work.