Class action suit: SL Businesses VS Griefer

It would appear that Captain Clipper is correct about at least one thing. Surprisingly, gambling winnings in the UK are tax exempt. From what I've read, this apparently is a relatively recent change in the law, designed to encourage gambling institutions to operate inside the country, rather than overseas. Interesting. Here is a quick list of what is and is not taxable in the UK.

Captain, forgive me my ignorance on that subject, and please accept my sincere apology for having assumed you didn't know what you were talking about.

That having been said, I still highly doubt that business in SL would be considered to be gambling. Your argument in that respect seems to center on the fact that you consider SL to be a game. A great many gamers and others would take issue with that, including me, but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right; SL is a game.

According to your current gambling laws, winnings from betting on a game are tax exempt. So, if I were a UK citizen, and I bet on a football game, I wouldn't pay any taxes on anything I won. Got it.

What if I were a professional football player though? Wouldn't I have to pay income tax on my salary? Would it matter that my income is derived from playing a game, or is salary income just plain old taxable income no matter what the nature of the business?

This article I just found, which talks about difficulties UK has in recruiting international football players due to high taxes would seem to indicate professional athletes in your country do indeed pay income tax even though their income comes from a game. This one goes further to the point by explaining how your government defines what the term "professional athlete" means, and how they are taxed. I'll quote the relevant lines:



It would appear that anyone in your country who endeavors to make an income from gaming is considered to be a professional, and that his or her earnings are taxed. According to everything I've read, it's only the non-professional better whose earnings are tax exempt.

So the question then becomes are SL business owners professionals? According to the definition the article would suggest, and plain old common sense, I would say absolutely yes. SL business owners deliberately engage in activities designed to make the game profitable, and that would seem to fit the definition.

Casual players who just sit in camping chairs or play the casinos, however, it seems would not be taxed. Their activities are not professional.

Now of course, all of these conclusions of mine stem from less than one day's research on the matter, so my interpretation of your laws could be wrong. If so, I invite you to explain precisely how. Since SL business owners are clearly profit-seekers, how is it that they would not be defined as professionals under the law? Further, how is it that their earnings are even considered to be gambling winnings in the first place when their income is derived from the sale of commodities, not from betting?



As for your notion, Captain, that I didn't answer the lawsuit question, I invite you to read my previous posts in this thread once again. Aw, what the heck, I'll save you the trouble, and I'll quote myself right here:



I saw no need to bring up the of the lawsuit subject once again in my message to you since I'd already answered the question twice (three times if you count Post #24 in which I rebutted the comments of someone who felt LL should be sued instead of the griefers). The topic I had wanted to speak to you about was income taxation. My opinion on the lawsuit had already been made clear.

However, to avoid any possible accusations of once again not answering that question, yes, I think we should sue griefers. Not only do they directly cost us money, but they also cause us harm in other ways. In the US, you can spill coffee on yourself and get awarded 3 million dollars from the restaurant that served it to you. I don't think it's that much a stretch to seek damages from those who interfere with our online businesses, our freedom of access to a large network, and our enjoyment of same.

beanie babies, barbies, collectibles, wines, ect ect all have or had intrinsic value at one time or another. There was no rational to this other than there was a market to drive it. Because of those makets, people became small business owner, owner/ operators, and the like. It is precisely the same as those who work for L$. whether they make 5 cents a day or 500 euro's a day, there is still a value.

It has already been well stated, so I won't go into it, but in many cases sl businesses are real companies; llc's, corporations, or inc ect.. to that end on paper, there is a rl stake in these things. no matter if the platform is a local flea market, a rental from a mall, on the web, or in a web based application, these all equate to varring degrees. With that being said, should a business owner incorporate or otherwise create a rl business, no matter where they sell their goods, there are certain write offs, deductions, losses, and the like. When taxes are filed (in the US) there are areas to make these claims. when the check comes back it will not be in L$ the same as if an amway seller lost products due to theft and the like that person will not be reimbursed through amway products from the governement. Additionally, if the owner has created a business through paper, then they should also carry some form of insurance against such losses.

go get the idiots guide to incorporating and robert kiyosaki books and learn. nothing in this world has value aside from what others place on it. that is why markets exist to measure, determine, and trade these values.. its simply not about the tangible its about the value people place on these things.

Im not a big business owner and this is more fun for me than anything. I havent made millions or anything like that haha. but if I do and can retire only to work in sl, then my home office, software, profits and losses, ect ect would surely be taken into account.

If sl is just a game to you, then let it be that. if its a place to have trysts behind your rl partners back, then run with that. if its an income generating stream, then do that. whatever it is to you, thats what it is. belief structures arent going to change based on a few peoples opinions.

Talking about what is money and what is not, Tulips had value back in the 17th century in Holland (I think that was the country) That (tulip mania) caused a financial panic, Desmond if you are around and read this was that not the basis on which you made those sl tulips ?

It's a crazy world, it all comes down to what we could call fungible value.

As for lawyers though.....in my country (UK) an avarge going rate for a partner is about £200 per hour, on spot US now that is (1.856 being equal to at least $385 (thats outside London.) God only knows what it would cost in the land of the free

Thank you. At least I am partially right, however, Im not interested in proving anything I say as being right or wrong under current legislation. My interest lies in providing an argument to NOT pay tax on SL profits.



Apologies accepted and thanks for being non assuming in this reply.



Absolutely, and I agree. I'm sure a heap of ppl will agree that business in SL can not be considered gambling. But could it be considered gaming? I make that distinction only because there are plenty fruit machine applications which are definately considered gambling. But there are also many games (poker, blackjack, pool, etc.) which have an element of skill NOT chance and should be considered gaming.



Difficulties recruiting international players? You gotta be kidding! I'm a Chelsea FC and I think you'll find that the majority of Players are overseas internationals. In fact the majority of Premiership clubs all have overseas players. It has been well documented that overseas footballers all want to play in the Premiership, largely because of the high salaries that they can command. Of couse they are taxed as a result of plying their trade here. And they are not allowed to bet on matches in which they or there club are involved. However, they can make bets on other games and they are not taxed on any winning s they make. This I know is largely irrelevant to our argument about SL business and taxation so I'll leave it there.




I've no doubt that anyone who succesfully makes a reasonable profit from Gaming would come under the scrutiny of the IR and tax laws. Yet it is this definition of Professional / Amateur that confuses me. If as a hobby, I play poker occasionally am I considered professional? the answer should be no. But if somehow I manage to qualify for the World Series and end up winning $5M am I then a professional? Or just an amateur who got lucky? I think the IR would claim that I have to pay tax on my winnings as a professional which I think is just another method for self serving officialdom to force me to stay poor. That is the problem I have and the argument I am making re: Taxation.



Commodoties are things traded on the markets such as coffee, tea, etc. Business owners in SL build scripts, objects, clothes, whatever all of which is digital content. I have no doubt that these 'business' owners consider themselves professional, yet that is not what I am asking or suggesting. The profits they make are in a simulated world, virtual community OR game. The distinction has never been made 100% clear in law. So, if we call it a SIM game in which all profits are made in a pretend currency $L why should we be taxed on that? Tax only comes into it when we cash out and convert into RL currency. The point I am making is that in the UK this is considered non taxable winnings! Linden dollars are exactly like poker chips, they are NOT real. When I cash out my poker chips I am not asked to declare the resulting profit in the UK as taxable income. Therefore I believe the same COULD be applied to SL profits IF and only IF we accept that SL IS a GAME. The benefits to us as SL business owners are clear for all to see.






Fair enough! You already apologised for your assumptions and remarks from your earlier post. I am only proposing we stick to the topic and perhaps open a new thred for discussion of these taxation points of view.



Interference of a private restricted network is a criminal offence and the griefers should be sued by LL. But I for one, do not beleive that individual SL subscibers can sue the greifers for loss of SL profits. Why? Because the profits made are part of a gaming experience, they are not real since no official currency (other than subscription / land fees) is involved. Its irrelevent whether the linden$ has any real value or not. It does NOT exist as a currency and therefore no tangible loss could be proved. The potential to convert this to a recognised currency however, is another matter and one that I am interested in discussing since it is the only REAL argument that says it could then become deemed as INCOME, BUSINESS PROFIT whatever in the REAL world.

My only interest is to find ways around draconian taxation laws on internet gaming and resulting profits and I think it would be in everyones interests to follow suit. I challenge those laws and so far as I can tell, I am the only one prepared to do so.

That is my opinion.

Mushrooms have fungible value, tulips do not. They have bulbible value ROFL

Thanks for the lesson in economics and business law but this has already been covered in earlier posts. The question is can we sue the griefers for loss of profits? I believe we could try unsuccesfully but also to our detriment. We would have to accept by definition that SL is a trading application and therefore have to treat all profits made in SL as taxable. I am interested in proposing that IF SL is deemed as a gaming experience, then we in the UK, might have an argument to claim that the profits are not REAL in SL and should fall under gaming laws in which we would have no obligation to pay taxes.

One problem.

Your assuming that Linden are going to provide you with the details of the griefers, which you would need to formulate a case.

However, due to the Data Protection Act, they are not permitted to disclose that information.

The only ones who can actually prosecute are Linden Labs themselves.

It just occurred to me that in all our bantering about US vs. UK laws (which I must admit has been educational), we all seem to have forgotten one crucial thing. When we signed onto SL, we all agreed that we would abide by the laws of the State of California.

This mayor may not affect things such as income tax (I haven't read the California's Uniform Commerce Code, and I don't know how it would apply in relation to UK business/gaming laws), but I believe it would affect things like obtaining the identity of a griefer. The aforementioned Data Protection Act only applies to UK citizens and UK companies. As far as I know, the US has no similar law.

Linden Lab is a California company, and as such would be obligated to comply with a subpoena issued from a California court. It doubt it would be difficult in the interest of filing a suit to obtain subpoena asking for whatever info LL has on the identities of those responsible for attacks. LL while clearly a victim in its own right, is also a witness, and witnesses can be compelled to divulge information.

Further, LL has already stated that they are turning all the data they have on these people over to appropriate law enforcement agencies. Should any criminal action be filed, the identities of the accused would become public record.


Of course, that particular sword would cut both ways if we were to file suit. By joining the class, we'd all need to divulge our own identities to the court, and that would also become public record. That's something else to consider when determining if it's worthwhile to do something like this.




Oh, and by the way, Captain, if you're still reading, I think I understand where you're coming from now. I'm not sure I agree with everything you've said, but I do see how your argument possibly has merit. Once again, I apologize for my earlier comments to the contrary.

too right, thats why I propose the write off as business loss option. if that isnt an option because the virtual company isn't incorporated, or you reside in a country that does not allow it, then you're simply sol I should think

Actually, we do.

I can't specifically remember the name at this moment, but it's the law they are trying to apply to WHOIS for giving out information.

I'm thinking it starts with 'Third Party'.

Which would make us the Third Party and would mean we cannot get the info unless it's part of an agreement/settlement to allow the publication of the outcome of a case to open the door to class action.

Thanks and no probs. I too have leaned a thing or two during this fascinating discussion. I'd be interested to know, having signed up to SL and agreed to abide by the State of California laws, how those laws would be enforced on me in the UK.

I stand corrected on the gambling laws although as we all agree that was a bit of a sideline .

Regarding the DPA or similar laws I would have thought that if you took a person to court hidden by the DPA then if the court decided you had a case ( or let's take a step back and say the CPS (Crown Prosicution Service) ) then LL would have to release the details to the party's who need it. I believe the DPA cannot be used to hide behind when you have done something illegal (if that was the case then for instance the police wouldn't be able to request data from a bank for instance to prove fraud).

I don't think that the gaming (NOTE: NOT GAMBLING) laws are a sideline at all! I believe they are crucial to this taxation question as I believe that profits in SL could fall under these laws as 'winnings' if we do not want to pay tax on those profits. It is a suggestion / proposal, not an answer and please, before anyone asks, I do not speak with any authority on the matter. I'm just posing an IF question. (i.e IF SL could be deemed in law as a game - as many people refer to it - we're onto a winner in the UK because of our gaming laws.)




LL is a Califormia based company and is not subject to the Data Protection Act which was a bill passed by a UK government. The CPS has no power or jurisdiction that would oblige LL to release any information.

I doubt that the IRS in the UK would allow incomes derived from SL (even if they where won through gambling in game) as gambling winnings. There are no set rules for virtual worlds such as SL yet. Most countries are still dealing with sorting out what laws to apply to the internet. I know that illegal file sharing (music, movies, programs etc) in Sweden is still being sorted out law-wise. It is illegal to distribute copywrited material - yes - but the details surrounding such as a person reffering a 3rd party to a place where he/she can download something doesn't fall under any illegal activity atm in Sweden.

People pay taxes because their country needs funds to support itself and take care of it's ill, conduct research etc etc. Ofcourse you as an individual want to get away with paying as little as possible in taxes, and ofcourse your country wants to get as much out of you as possible (in allignment with the laws ofcourse). The UK law that enables tax-free gambling was made to raise business interest in the country - not to let people get away with not paying taxes for their livelyhood... therefore I would assume a case argued in court about money derived from SL is gambling money would fail horribly.

If all earnings derived from any activity on the internet (be it selling products, services, donations, gaming or whatever other activity you can come up with) wouldn't be taxable income/earnings it would result in major losses for some nations (I say some since as someone stated there are places in the world where there is no income tax), that in turn would mean that the country wouldn't be able to support it's schools, education, healthcare, railroads, electricity and the list goes on... it would also raise tax on everything else.

You don't bet money in SL to gain - it's not gambling. You can bet $L in-game to gamble and maybe make some more $L's, but that doesn't make the actual RL cash you convert your $L's to gambling winnings. Might be one or two exeptions, people who actually can show on record that they've bought $L's and exclusievly gabled to get their winnings. Then $L could be considered gambling chips used to represent some sort of value later to be converted to some real currency. Most people making money in SL, atleast I would assume, do so through providing either some sort of service or products of differant sorts.

When I upload a new texture for $L10 and make it into a new cool top and put it up for sale I don't gamble.. I can't lose money on that top so there's no "risk" involved. If someone works as an event host they provide a service and dedicate time - they don't gamble cause they can't lose. Some people work for tip, but they aren't gambling either since they only can earn, they can't lose money.

The way I see it, as someone alrdy stated, is that LL is doing field experiments in a field that will be the logical next step. Technology gave us internet, people can shop, chat, have homepages, search for information, discuss etc. All in text documents to begin with, later graphics, and now animations, flash etc. It's still 2D though, next logical step would be 3D internet.

If you think in those terms then LL isn't really a game is it? It is indeed a platform. You can get access for free, in other words you can "surf the grid" for free if you like. If you want to though you can upgrade and own differant sizes of land. This land is fictional, what it really is is server space - so what they're doing is serverhosting (in what I believe to be the future standard internet, just not entirely under LL's controle). Think about it.. you can do whatever you want with your land, right? You could put up a personal space (would translate to your own blog on the internet, or a personal homepage), or you can conduct business. You are even able to rent out your space further - be it through vendor stalls, rental apartments etc (would translate to renting out banner spaces on your homepage, or refferance income through adds etc).

Either way if SL was defined as a game, and earnings would be considered gambling winnings it wouldn't make any differance for me - and most likely a lot of people. I live in Sweden. We have aprox 30% income tax. If I gamble and win money I pay 30% off of that too (unless stated by the gaming company that they pay the taxes and what I win is what is left after the company pay the tax for me), if someone GIVES me money I have to pay taxes on everything that exeedes 20,ooo SEK (aprox 2700 USD) /year. We pay 20% tax on food that we buy even - even though we've alrdy paid 30% off of the income we've made.

There's a problem when it comes to the part where we talk about if we can sue or not. I think any try to take legal actions would be very interesting to say the least. If I had a web-based company and someone hacked my server and it created financial damage to my company - ofcourse I could sue. Problem is how a court would define SL in its current state. Atm I think it would be very hard for anyone that doesn't have a RL company registered with his/her government to make a valid claim of income loss. If you have a registered company and have several months of stable income to show for then it would make the process a hell of a lot easier. Might win, might lose.. but even if you lose it might make a differance and laws might be created. If we want that or not I don't really have an opinion on personally atm - in the long run it will be inevitable though.

So if you want to sue then go for it.. the only real problem in trying it in court would be if LL know who the offenders are and if they are willing to give the information out, and if they're not willing to if a court would be able to force them. Those parts I know nothing about.

Whilst this is true I am sure that they would given the evidence. Bit of a grey area and to be honest the whole idea of a suit is pretty silly given the sheer complexity however if push came to shove I'm sure LL would give the relevant information if requested with suitable paperwork etc.

Regarding income. I'm sure if the Inland Revinue found someone was doing what amounts to a jobn in SL and not declaring the earnings you'd lose any court case etc. Neither Gaming or Gambling would work IMO unless you can prove that the income came soly from playing Slingo etc.

Most company's include in their terms that the user agrees to abide by their laws and also their homeland laws. I'm not sure about LL, but that's generally how it goes.

Hm... that'd be 7400 €, give or take. Does this only apply if I withdraw that sum at once, or during a certain timespan? Or is it in total, counting from the day the PayPal account was created?

Getting back to the gambling issue I suppose if somebody could show that 100% of his or her "income" from Second Life entirely consisted of casino winnings from playing the machines, under UK tax law that could be considered to be tax-free. That’s on the assumption that it’s social rather than business gambling.

However if you own a casino or sit on a money chair that income/profit would be presumed to be income by way of a trade and therefore taxable from a UK viewpoint.

I think that the US President may be due to sign off the new Internet gaming laws this Friday. Given that after that point it will be very difficult for US citizens to gamble over the net it will be very interesting indeed to see which way Linden and Second Life react to this legislation.

Of course Linden (Second Life) are a US company and one initial view I read from Lindens lawyer is that Second Life may not be impacted by these restrictions this being due to the almost unique nature of this platform and that Second Life is not PRIMARILY a gaming platform.

If that now unique nature should prove to be the case then Linden Labs have a very very valuable business indeed, and some of that new found wealth may well feed through to residents. As it happens I have done some research on the Second Life casino business. I am not quite sure about the security and profit margin issues yet, but in terms of gaming stakes I have found at least one casino where the slots exist to enable you to gamble $L50,000 and $L100,000 per go. In US dollars that is a more than respectable stake for those who wish to speculate...

As it happens I have stopped selling Linden dollars and am content to hold as I think there is a chance the currency could appreciate very very sharply against the US dollar due to new demand. In addition I have purchased some land on the old continent to ensure I am considered a resident….

Finally don’t forget Google took over YouTube for $1.65 billion…….

Dyor no advice intended -

My point refers to GAMING not GAMBLING and I've made the distinction in previous posts. Both fall under the same gaming laws in the UK. I know of various sites where you can sign up for free and win money playing pool for example. You dont make any bets at all yet can use your skill and knowledge to make profits or 'winnings' as they are termed.



LOL - I know what the stated reasons for taxation in my country are, yet 38% of all tax is spent on Defense while a miniscule 2% is spent on care for the elderly. Does this not smack of injustice in this day and age? Furthermore, a law brought in for one purpose often has the advantage to serve another - so this argument and your assumption, I don't buy.



We pay phenomenal taxes in the UK for almost everything. Yet the state still cannot support it's schools, healthcare, transport, water, electricity etc. (the list goes on) to any degree of satisfaction for the tax paying public. Why? Because our government is a complete beaurocracy (note not democracy). Since our present government has come to power it has increased the amount of civil servants 4 fold. More people, more beaurocracy / red tape, more spent on public services but more wasted on private companies / contractors and fat cat bonuses. I doubt very much that it would be a major loss for my country to allow activities on the internet to be tax free, but regardless that is not the point I am making.



No, but you pay a subscription to join this SL world and you can go around chatting to others, buy clothes for your AVI, etc. - many view this as a GAME. If as a result of playing you make $L (which are in every way like chips - not a currency) why should it not be comparable to making winnings in a poker game? Certainly the UK laws make no distinction.



How does it not? What is the difference in converting cash to $L with a view to create more $L in SL to buying chips vith a view to create more chips on a poker site? On a poker site you can chat, move from table to table, even make deals and desisions with other players to split the money when only those remaining players that are left. It is gaming. There are also side bets that can be made on fruit machine type games whilst you play your game. These I would think are analogous to the SLingo, slots, etc. that can be played on SL. There are risks for business owners on SL and the fact that you say you cannot make a loss is relative. What if you spend a lot of time making your t shirts but you have placed your shop on a very unpopular place and no-one buys a shirt? You have lost time and effort and probably wasted money on your plot of land. If you rented a space on a very popular piece of land and sold loads of t shirts the opposite would be true. You have made a good decision to accrue more $L but NOT without risk. Similarly, on the pool site i visit I cant lose, but I can win prizes that can be converted to cash.



I dont disagree, yet is this relative?



LL is not a game it is a company but SL could possibly be construed as one, regardless of what you have said about the next logical step for interactive technologies. A platform? Yes, it could be argued that SL is indeed a business platform. Free? I dont know since I am subscribed but does this really make any difference? Renting out my space does NOT translate to renting out banner spaces on my homepage. Why? One CRUCIAL difference. I could rent out space on my land for $L, a fictional currency, a gaming chip. Banner space, no that is all done in real world currencies, and offers no 'gaming experience' unlike space on SL.



But in Sweden you have a very good, efficient and fair taxation and public spending record. You look after and provide for children and the elderly, your public services are very good, you dont spend almost half your annual budget on bombs, fighter planes, warships and soldiers. You don't suffer what we in the UK do.



I think LL can sue the griefers for a criminal attack on their network. But I don't believe that Individuals can sue the griefers for business losses and win. Even if they try I fear it would bring unwelcome attention to SL and regulation. Something that I sincerely hope is not inevitable.



Thanks for your post Rose. Indeed you present your point of view (and that of others) very well and have furthered the discussion.

Party poker is not PRIMARILY a chat progam, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be used as one.

I play SL quite a lot, to me it is a SIM game, i buy and sell digital content in my game for a fictional currency, I dont camp, host, never play SLingo or any other gambling side game on SL. My target in the game is to reach 1M $L then I will get my cash prize. Should my winnings be taxable under UK law?

If you're in a country where paypal uses € as a base currency, I believe the trigger level is 7500...



It's the total amount received since you opened the paypal account - check the paypal help section titled "Non-US Accounts" and search on "cumulative receiving limit"; you should get the info within the first couple of hits. The help is localized, depending on where you are, but here in the UK it says:

As PayPal grows internationally, we are required to comply with anti-money laundering and 'Know-Your-Customer' regulations specific to each country. This requires us to collect additional information about you and/or your business before you reach a lifetime total amount received of 5,000 GBP. Please provide the requested information as soon as possible to prevent your account from being limited.

I can only speak from the perspective of a UK paypal user, but once you hit the trigger limit, they send you a e-mail asking you to visit a special screen on the paypal site where you have to declare whether you're a registered business/sole trader, what kind business you carry out, what your average monthly income is, where you make your sales, and other stuff like that (basically, whatever you enter here is going straight to the IR, so make sure it matches any info that you've already declared to them!). Any funds coming into your paypal account is frozen until you provide the information.

If you play pool on that site that you know of, then you play a game on a site.. If you play games in SL then sure you're playing games. If you gamble in SL then sure you're gambling, but I bet you that you'd have to be able to prove just that. If you run a business in SL and actievly persue income while running that business - even though it is within the platform of what you like to call a Game then it's not gaming/gambling. If you farm gold in an mmorpg to make money selling it on e-bay you're not collecting winnings or earnings from "gaming" you're doing it to make money. Even if you'd win the first round in court I bet you they'd change the law to specify the terms of tax free winnings from gaming/gambling - so in the end you'd lose. Ofcourse I could be wrong, but from what I've seen from how the law system usually works that's how it goes.

If the law in some way fails it's citizens. Lets say you are a victim of a crime, but the specifics of the crime lets the offender go without any legal consequenses - the law failed you. Usually after a case like that the law is gone over to specify that particular scenario to protect citizens in the future - right? Same goes if the law doesn't protect the governments interest in collecting money from it's citizens. Yes some laws that where meant for one thing enables other things - that's why laws get redifined.





I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think you, or anyone else, knew why you get taxed. I simply stated the mechanism to further clarify the point I was trying to make. In Sweden our defense and military system is constantly getting cut back. We've had more than 200 years of peace (or so they say) which is the benefit of being a "neutral" country - even though that neutrality can be argued aswell. By swedish law we're not allowed to sell weapons to countries that are currently at war.. still we sell weapons continuously to the states and England despite Iraq. Anyway, the point isn't to question the political aspects in each and every country. If you are very unhappy with the way your government is using the taxes you pay, either do somethign about it or move to another country.





I don't know your tax-rates in the UK, I do know that Sweden has one of the highest rates though. So I would guess our rates are higher than yours - I don't know that for sure. Sweden is recovering from an echonomical flunk atm, and we've suffered some cutbacks in healthcare, schools etc over the last couple of years.. our new government wants to lower the taxes while we're not yet on save ground, which I highly dissagree with, so I'm expecting worse times ahead. Hopefully they will not get re-ellected after 4 years of screw up. Either way... what your government or mine is doing with the money they collect from taxating it's people it's still money needed.





No you don't need to pay a subscription to join SL. I am still on a free account. I haven't spent any RL cash on SL what so ever. I got online and went "OMG I can't look like that" then spent 2 hrs fixing my shape, then realized I had to buy hair to look somewhat deasent So I bought hair for my first little allowance after getting online. After that I camped to be able to upload textures and made my own clothes.. which I have continued to sell from that point.





I still dissagree with the risk involved. If you calculate every move before you do it - where to put your vendors etc - there's no risk involved. When I had made my first 3 items in a few colour variations and could put them up for sale I rented a place where I would only need to sell one item/week not to end up losing L$ just to see how it went... and it went very well, so I could go on to getting more places. The only thing you can lose is time. Each item pays very little (talking about my own field which is clothes primarily) in terms of time spent and pay / item... but the income grows the more you make since items don't have a timelimit on them... and they don't go out of style. So if you don't know what you're doing then sure there's risk involved, but that goes for just about anything. My clothing business and the extended collaboration with my partner making prefab/custom building isn't that much of a risk, and the earnings from it isn't exactly a suprise.





I would say it is relevant since it would be part of how SL would be defined and viewed from a legal point of view.





Depending on what you do in SL it can be defined either way. The internet could be defined in the same way. If you conduct business exclusievly on the internet it would be a platform for business for you, if you only play games for fun it would be a means to have fun, if you only surf for porn it's your preferance, if you only use it to send out e-mail, chat and hang out on various community sites it's a means of communication, if you search information... the same goes for SL. You can use it entirely as a game, only to meet people, only for cybors only for gaming (playing slingo, casinos etc etc) or you can use it as a platform for your business. I don't see the differance. And the only thing I pay for with RL cash to be able to access SL is my broadband connection.





I don't complain about the tax-rates we have in Sweden, it might seem high to some people but our entire system is differant from most countries with lower taxes. If you make a direct comparison to a person living in the US income wise after taxes the US citizen would have more.. then if you withdraw all the insurance you'd need to have which we include in our taxpay the differance is minimal and depending on working benefits that may come with working at a certain company (for the US citisen) we even come out with higher pay here. If we look after our children and elderly can be debatable too though. When we spend money on bombs, planes etc it's to sell it to the UK and US among others - so no, we don't spend half the budget on bombs. On top of that our living standard is much higher in Sweden than the UK. This discussion is highly irrelavant to the subject of this thread though.





Yes, ofcourse LL can sue the griefers. I think, like alrdy stated, that it would be very hard for someone that doesn't have a registered business IRL using SL as a platform to be able to claim any losses though - since this is all a new concept and it hasn't been brought up to court (from what I know) yet - atleast not with this type of claim. And the attention it would bring toward SL might be unwelcome at first, but I think it is inevitable either way, and in the long run I would like regulations to be able to protect businesses in SL.





Thank you.

I think there has been a lot of constructive thought emerging from this thread. Despite the fact we have almost inevitably touched on first/other life issues involving people from different countries with different politics, some consensus has crystallised.

The Metaverse Messenger commented that one fairly well known avatar in Second Life advocated (somewhat tongue in cheek) that people who seek to bring down and destroy computer grids should face first life execution.

I don't entirely agree with that, but I am old and long enough in the tooth to comprehend the urge to destroy is evil in itself. It is clear to me that everyone here is positive about this new environment in one way or another, and that to me is a great good, provided we are not over exploited by Linden Labs

Regards

John

yeah, i havent witnessed any griefers, but well, i dont really have any money... I think that someone should look into this, if i was a lawyer, i would definately be interested in this kinda thing, and i am sure there are at least few SL'ers that are lawyers IRL!

All hail the money loving/hungry people..... welcome to richvile or i wannaberichvile...

stop complaining.. its just pixel money like monopoly... and you would have to earn alot of pixel money to make a living out of it..

(no idea why i actualy posted here...)