Class action suit: SL Businesses VS Griefer

IMHO the only people that could possibly file any kind of suit would be residents who claimed income with the I.R.S.

Then you would have grounds for the *real money* issue.

I wonder if there is a way to find data on residents who do file income received through Linden Lab? Would be interesting...I wonder if it would be filed under gaming income after a certain minimum is achieved?

Any Tax people out there know?

Not to keep monopolizing the thread, but I do know the answer to this one. I'm not an accountant or a lawyer, just so you know, but I am a business owner in RL, and I've been doing my own taxes and bookkeeping since 1994.

The answer is it's considered business income, and would go on Schedule C, Profit & Loss from Business. You can put it on Line 1 for "gross receipts or sales", or if you prefer, on Line 6 for "other income".

On the same form, you deduct all your expenses such as your computer, your home office, your internet costs, electricity, supplies, etc. on the appropriate lines. It's pretty simple.

I recommend aggressive deductions. Find ways to tie in your every day expenses into your business. If you go on a trip, tell someone about your SL business; it's a business trip, 100% deductible as travel expenses. If you take someone out to dinner, tell them about your SL business; it's an entertainment expense, 50% deductible. If you drive to meet an SL friend (potential client), you can deduct 44.5 cents for every business mile you drive, plus tolls. If you're fixing up your house, a certain percentage of the repairs can be deducted as part of your home office expenses. The list goes on and on and on.

A very wise person once told me, "There's a big difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Tax evasion is bad. That's what they busted Al Capone for. Tax avoidance is good. It means taking advantage of your constitutional right to pay as little in taxes as possible." As business owners, we have tremendous opportunities to keep more of our own money than as employees.


EDIT: Almost for got to add, just so you know "gaming" to the IRS does not mean what it means to us computer geeks. "Gaming income" generally means casino winnings, not income derived from a business inside a computer game, not that SL's a game anyway.

Thank you Chosen for the informative response. Oh and I understand the *Gaming* income.

I have a family full of gamblers...

I just didn't know what you would describe SL as. Especially if all income cashed out of SL was from Slots/Texas Hold'em as examples, would it be considered gaming then? (probably not since it isn't regulated by the government).

These things I have always been curious about.

I spend way to much in SL to ever be able to cash out anything...haha

"Gold doesn't come from leprechauns!"

"No?"

"It doesn't?"

"No.... gold comes from China."

"Oh!"

-Zinwrath

I own a California corporation myself, and most people tend to interpret this sort of thing far too loosely.

If you *genuinely* talk to a potential client about your SL business, sure.

But casually telling your aunt's best friend is likely to not survive audit scrutiny, and you will be fined. The burden of proof is on you, that it was legitimate business.

Same goes for casually discussing business with the usual lunch friends every day. It doesn't fly.


I had a friend who for many years chided me for not writing off lunches where business came up between current events, politics and so forth.

Then, he got audited. Had to pay back taxes and fines on... I forgot how many years of "business lunches" but it was in the thousands of dollars.

Even if you do something legitimate, there has to be some documentation of who was there, what was talked about and all that stuff.

It's a favourite target of auditors.

A class action suit sounds lovely. The problem is, how do you plan to identify the griefer? If SL could identify him, we wouldn't be having all these attacks.

Although I see the point about the potential loss of income and I also understand the position that LL does not concider the $L an actual form of currency, even though the Lindex would act much like a RL currency trading system. I do believe that these hacking issues are officially OUT OF HAND! I would love nothing more than to see the attackers brought to full justice. Lets not play dumb here, we all know how much income has been lost for residence of SL that own business over this past weekend. My take on it and will remain...Bring back the CC verification and I believe some of these problems will go away. The one thing I do know...is the age verification and personal verifications must be brought back. I have helped a couple people get through the verification (personal friends that I trust). So if they can get an account with my verification at least there is still a way to get to them if they happen to do something wrong. If they can't get the verification because no one else trusts them to help them...why do we want them in world anyway? Is this really that difficult? Don't rally to take LL to court...Rally to bring these idiot hackers to justice.

The different between paying the play, and trying to dream up a bullshit way to take someone to court over it, is extreme. Once the US courts get into SL it'll be worse for /everyone/.

SL is not RL, if you have a problem with the experience you have a right to complain to the lindens. If you go to court with it, then SL becomes an extension of RL, and the shit can really start to fly.

If the lindens decide to go after this griefer for attacking their network, it's their problem. The users shouldn't be expecting any money out of it. If you have a problem with SL, or how it handles these incidents, than you are free to leave. This may seem harsh, or overstated, or just an excuse to shut you up, but it's true. This is a /game experience/ which just happens to make some people cash, no one should be dependant on this game for livelihood, and anyone who is dependant on the L$ they make to survive is putting themselves into a very risky situation.

Something else that comes to mind..

This is completely hypothetical. If someone can sue someone else because of lost profits in SL, than can a person sue another SL resident for sexually harassment if they view something objectionable to their sensibilities?

If you don't like what you see...turn your avitar around and teleport the other way. The sexual harrassement should not be an issue in SL ever! This a world that is suppose to be for big all growed up adults. I don't get into much of the sex stuff in SL. The world brings me far too much creativity. If I don't like where I am at or what is happening around me there are tons of places I can go that I don't have to see it. So lets just leave that topic and move on.

Oh I know, I have an open mind and I know how to turn away when someone grosses me out.

I was just saying as a hypothetical. If the money in SL is 'real' then the harrassment and the drama and the bullshit could be claimed as real too. I remember a friend of mine kept talking about the rule that a plot of land in the US could be 'abandoned' and claimed by someone else.. and somehow that was supposed to transfer to SL, even though any given land is being paid for monthly by a resident.

Sound advice for sure, Desmond, but my experience has been as long as you keep receipts, and make a quick note on the back who was with you and what was your purpose in meeting with them, you've got nothing to worry about. Anyone interested in learning more on this though should really consult a qualified accountant and/or attorney, rather than listening to either of us too much.

The law doesn't work that way. It's not like SL would suddenly be declared real for all purposes.

For example, you can make real money in SL. You can't have real sex, or really kill someone, or really own land. Those things are fundamentally different from running a real business and making real money on SL.

if there is an SL legal system set up inworld then yes sue them down to thier xcite attachements, but as it was quoted, lindens are "real money", even though you can convert your profits into USD. but hey if there are any lawyers out there i would LOVE to join the suit, in world of course!

Wait a minute. So you're saying when I kill someone in SL they don't die for real? There goes that plan.

What if I have real sex with someone on real land that I own and they die of a heart attack, all while I'm logged in to SL? What happens then?

Your 'business' on SL is NOT a RL business. You're profits are the result of Gaming (like poker etc.) and NOT RL business. Are you paying any taxes on the profits you make?

Second Life is just a game for which we pay a subscription. Therefore in RL any claim for damages due to downtime would be about the value of gaming service provide Vs supsciption fees charged NOT lossed profits which under law would NOT come under business laws BUT could, possibly come under gaming laws.

Any highly public lawsuits would only bring what always happens. REGULATION! - see recent press about U.S laws and gaming / CC, etc. for Poker sites. BIG BROTHER is watching YOU!

Personally, I feel that the more attention is drawn to SL's current griefing / downtime problems, the worse it will get. However, I love SL and hope LL sort it out soon so I can back to playing my game and having great fun for what amounts to very little (in terms of supscription and land costs) RL money.

Keep the faith!

CC

I never said sex, murder, or land theft.

I said Harassment, Drama, and Bullshit. And I asked what is to keep one person from suing another over 'verbal' or 'physical' harassment they receive from another resident in SL. I have been told of stories of some(incredibly naive) people who have let people they met on SL get way too close to them, and been seriously affected by it. I myself have seen people do things that have made me honestly, physically ill. Call me a prude if you will(If you knew me, you wouldn't. )*

Also as I said before in this thread, anyone who thinks investing into SL and making it their means of livelihood is putting themselves into a very dangerous and honestly unintelligent situation. And unless you are in that situation, than I don't think I give a damn if you feel slighted out of 20 or 30 dollars of USD because of a few days of outages caused by some pranker.

Oh here's another hypothetical if anyone wants to field it. What if two people partner up and start a business, with say one of them paying for the land, and the other making the content to sell on that land. If they seperate for personal reasons could they sue each other over it, as if they had had an RL divorce?

Oh the consequences of lindens be real, I could fantasize about it all day.

* And to clarify I didn't see this in "Joe Suckinstuffs hot sex emporium", I saw it being done in the middle of a public area in a mature sim, which was not explicitely or even implied as an area for sexual roleplay. Which was of course why I didn't have my blinders up when the shit started a fly.

Of course you could file a lawsuit against those who crash the grid. It has nothing to do with whether or not L$ have value or not. (Though you could probably prove that as people pay US dollars for them every day.) For anyone who pays tier in SL, you paid x number of dollars for a month of use of that land. Thus if intentional actions of another disrupt the service you paid for, they are liable. It would be open and shut really. The problem would be two fold though...

Would anyone really take the time to place these lawsuits and would LL be willing to provide those involved with the identification of the griefers. They have stated that they don't wish to do so. (It is part of their TOS.)

One would think you'd need a defendant to have a lawsuit? I could be wrong though

That's known as 'Game Over'.

Your first point is incorrect - LL could file against those who crash the system (since they are signed up members who are in breach of contract and have maliciously attacked the network) but individuals could not since there is no breach of civil or state laws. Under gaming / consumer laws you could theoretically claim from LL if you think that the level of service received is not worth what you pay for subscription / land / $L fees etc. But under business law you cannot claim damages for loss of income to your SL businesses since IT IT DONT REALLY EXIST! Have you a memorandum and articles of association for a limited or otherwise company registered wherever? are you audited / have to provide accounts and maintain a PandL? Do you pay tax on any RL income made from your SL gaming experience?

Your profits are the result of playing a game> Downtime caused by griefers is inconvenient and frustrating, but NOT the cause of any RL business loss!

Your second point is correct - It has nothing to do with whether or not L$ have value or not. But out of interest the same applies to paper money since that is just a 'promise to pay the bearer on demand...'. Interestingly paper was only brought in due to the severe shortage of coins, which, made of gold and silver still are the only true measure of monetary value. Oh, and also as a means to fund wars, navy's and the East India and Mississippi trading companies.

Open and shut - I don't think so.

Thank you.

Why do you feel someone has to violate a state or federal law to file a lawsuit against them? This is not the case. You are confusing a monetary lawsuit aimed against an individual who prevented you from receiving a service that you paid for with criminal charges that could be brought for violating state and federal laws. They are two completely different issues. Again it has nothing to do with lost business in L$. That would be much harder (though probably not impossible) to prove. However proving that one paid 195 US dollars for an island for one month and that the actions of another prevented that person from receiving that service would be fairly straightforward. Although for the two reasons I stated earlier, I don't expect any lawsuits to go forward. Thus I simply point out that one could but probably would not file a lawsuit.

Here is an example. Let us say you paid 100 dollars per month for satellite TV service. Let us say I set up a jammer on my roof that prevents you from getting this service and you can prove that I did so. I would then be liable for your loss of paid service.

Yes that can be an issue, the Government getting involved and setting a precedence that may be good or bad.



One of the problems is that we don’t know if LL is taking any actions against these people. We never hear any thing like “We are now in the process of taking legal action against a griefer.” The most I’ve seen is a 3 day suspension on the police blotter. It would be nice if we got a public message something like “We are now taking legal action is there anyone who would like to claim loses?” I think this alone would help detour some griefers and we would not even be talking about such a suit.



That’s a possibility, though it may be that a lawyer may take on this case for only the money he can get from the griefer. I’m willing to accept no money and let the lawyer have it in exchange for bringing this problem to light and letting the griefers see what can happen to them.


There is no debating that any income you receive is taxable, at least here in the US it is and has to be claimed and taxes paid on it.



Thanks for the post Chosen, you have explained it very well. Much better than I could have done.



I agree.



That’s debatable. It could be for the better or worst. One thing is for curtain, there will eventually be legal issues coming up in the future. My guess is most likely copyright issues.



I think it’s an extension of real life already. We are real right here talking about a SL issue.



It is as much our problem as it is theirs. We get affected by the greifing. In my case lost sales and production.

I’m not expecting any money out of it. I want to bring attention to it and set an example for other griefers.

I don’t think of it as a “game experience” (though I have played games in SL) this is more like a 3d social environment to me. And it doesn’t just happen to make me cash, I work hard at providing good content for others to buy. There is a lot of work running a SL business just the same as a RL business. Creating content is just the beginning. And there are real world costs involved.

You can choose to make your living selling pens on a street corner or taking an executive position in a company. With either one, there are risks involved. Besides I think the majority or people here also have rl jobs and are not putting all their egg in one basket so to speak. There are many though that have chosen to make this their only source of income and are taking that risk and doing well at it. Well enough to pay actually pay their mortgage or rent in fact. You take risks in life all the time and this is no different. You have a right to think of SL as a game but to many this is serious business.



A business can be conducted in many ways, SL is just one. And yes, taxes need to be paid, it is considered income.



SL is not a game. There are games inside of SL but as a whole SL is not a game. Try virtual environment that’s a closer definition. I think that if you can show that you make some income doing anything and someone did something to prevent you from making that income they are liable for damages caused to you. And gaming laws do not apply here (except maybe for casinos).



This is not a Poker site and should no be compared to that.


The problem is the wrong kind of attention. Bringing to attention that they could be prosecuted may be the right kind of attention.