Class action suit: SL Businesses VS Griefer

Ask Anshe Chung if it was pixel money to her.



Me either.

Yeah but as i sayd "you would have to make alot of pixel money to make a living out of it"


and anshe does ^^

Doesn't meant there aren't tons of others who do it too. I make scratch compared to some, but that lil bit of extra is nice when I want something extra for myself.

You don't need to earn a lot of 'monopoly' money to have it make a difference in RL.

Maybe you should have read all the posts here before you made your ignorant comment.

Thanks for the information I wasn't aware of that. It means for me, I'll likely run into problems since I'm only allowed to earn € 350 monthly, in addition to my retirement pension. Looks like I have to spend the rest inworld.

I wonder if there's a way to declare SL income as stock or bond revenue. It's no real work once the vendors are placed, practically a one-time investment (time and money) with a constant dividend.

The majority of SL business owners (in my experience) did not open their business with the expectation that they would ever make enough money to trade much less trade regularly. Then as you work and create and sell the business starts to grow and grow and one day you realize, hey if I trade these L$ in I can make my car payment! That's where it starts and before you know it, you start to actually count those L$ as part of your earned income. Most business owners in SL also have RL jobs or businesses. Some might not. For some maybe those L$ made the difference between paying the RL rent or not after being laid off or spending some time on disability. It's not as if most people are choosing to put themselves into a risky business situation. It's more as if the hobby has become an RL lifesaver and now they'd like to keep it going with as little risk as possible.

Another way to look at it is that every job comes with some risks. A mechanic perfectly content in his job just fixing people's cars every day gets laid off suddenly when his employer tells him the shop is closing. A waitress gets fired suddenly when a customer complains about her service. A corporate executive suddenly gets canned a year before retirement because of downsizing. A shop owner starts losing customers when a wallmart opens up down the street and he has to shut down because he can't make his lease payments anymore. And a person who makes their living trading L$ has to stop and find another way to make money because grid instability causes their profits to dwindle. There is risk in everything. The trick is to do what you can to lessen the risk and know when to start looking for a back up plan when the risk is too high.

5.4 Linden Lab's liability to you is expressly limited, to the extent allowable under applicable law.

IN NO EVENT SHALL LINDEN LAB OR ANY OF ITS SHAREHOLDERS, PARTNERS, AFFILIATES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, SUPPLIERS, LICENSEES OR DISTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY DAMAGES FOR LOST PROFITS, ARISING (WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE) OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE (INCLUDING ITS MODIFICATION OR TERMINATION), THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT (INCLUDING ITS TERMINATION OR SUSPENSION) OR THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER OR NOT LINDEN LAB MAY HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT ANY SUCH DAMAGES MIGHT OR COULD OCCUR AND NOTWITHSTANDING THE FAILURE OF ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OF ANY REMEDY. IN ADDITION, IN NO EVENT WILL LINDEN LAB'S CUMULATIVE LIABILITY TO YOU FOR DIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY KIND OR NATURE EXCEED FIFTY DOLLARS (U.S. $50.00). Some jurisdictions do not allow the foregoing limitations of liability, so to the extent that any such limitation is impermissible, such limitation may not apply to you. You agree that Linden Lab cannot be held responsible or liable for anything that occurs or results from accessing or subscribing to the Service.

Presumably the above applies to ALL business owners. Question is could we sue the griefers?

3.3 Linden Lab retains ownership of the account and related data, regardless of intellectual property rights you may have in content you create or otherwise own.

You agree that even though you may retain certain copyright or other intellectual property rights with respect to Content you create while using the Service, you do not own the account you use to access the Service, nor do you own any data Linden Lab stores on Linden Lab servers (including without limitation any data representing or embodying any or all of your Content).

3.4 Linden Lab licenses its textures

Well sue them for what? Since we don't actually OWN a business in SL. All we own is the IP rights to the content we create. For this purpose SL is thus just a place to put our stuff for distribution. Like an FTP account.

That's pretty... but it's actually up to a judge to decide whether it's binding or not. Plus, the actual work around is if LL made any claims about the service, in advertising or marketing materials, and then failed to deliver.

Since we all agreed to the TOS by checking a box that stated "I agree to the TOS as..." when we signed up, and that action is recorded on the account application and subsequent account, I would doubt that a judge would not find this contract binding.

I dont understand your suggested 'work around'. For me it couldnt be clearer:

...INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY DAMAGES FOR LOST PROFITS, ARISING (WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE) OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE (INCLUDING ITS MODIFICATION OR TERMINATION), THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT (INCLUDING ITS TERMINATION OR SUSPENSION) OR THIS AGREEMENT...

People sign lots of contracts and contracts do get tossed out of court all the time. If _all_ contracts were _always_ binding there were be about 10-percent of the contract lawyers out there. Plus, it never hurts to find the right judge.

The most common reason for a contract to be dissolved is that it failed to be mutually beneficial to all parties.

Assofaras as advertising and marketing materials: the burden is to show that the advertising and marketing materials were misleading or made claims, prior to signing the contract, that were later unfulfilled, after the contract was signed.

Anyway, the problem really isn't about a class action suit. The original poster is considering a class action suit because it's something they're aware of. My guess is their intent is actually to bring a third-party to the table and draw that third-party into a dialogue that says, "Hey, the company that runs this entertainment service is doing a lousy job. I think we should all get refund." When it comes to consumer affairs there's a variety of outlets to complain to.

LL has credited accounts in the past, the most notable instance being the service problems during December of 2004 which resulted in a credit (a pro-rated portion of my tier fee) to my account. My argument was that I was being charged tier fees for land that I was unable to access. However, since then, LL has made it clear that an outage has to persist for 24-hours or more, according to the revised Terms of Service.

Ultimately, LL has lost its way as a business. By mixing non-paying accounts with paying accounts under the eglatarian term "residents" it's overlooked who its customers are. It no longer has a clear focus on where the money comes from. Most businesses don't realize this until they experience "pocket loss," meaning a measurable amount of lost revenue, and it's unlikely that LL will see this. [The reason why this jumps out at me is a business wants to retain existing customers (by keeping them satisfied), however, the LL attitude is no "resident" is more important than any other "resident."]

Keep in mind that LL is presently burning through investor capital and feels that if given enough time revenues will eventually exceed their burn rate of investor capital. This might also be part of focusing on total resident numbers as opposed to total premium subscribers and/or total tier fee revenues. As LL can't hit certain numbers it focuses on the easiest number to meet: total registrations.

If LL can't satisfy its customers and thus retain them it does so at its own peril. That someone wishes to explore the remote possibility of a class action suit is emblematic that LL is failing to satisfy its customers.

This is a tech issue and many times tech issues can have legal ramifications.
I hope LL gets the FBI involved and other law enforcement agencies as well.

I noticed that during or after these “attacks” the exchange rate for $Linden to $US is huge. I am guessing that is due to a high number of subscribers that are converting there Linden $ to RL US $ and leaving SL.

I for one decided not to set up my own Island. To subscribe to LL for the cost of server setup ($1250) and monthly maintenance ($195) does not make since to me now. I am sure I am not the only person that has decided against setting up an Island in the past 2 weeks.

I sent IM’s to the LL rep posting the “We regret the…. The grid will be coming down… “ messages. The answer “was we understand your frustration….” I am not frustrated I am down rite angry!! Not frustrated.

I suggested that LL should gather payment information on all players in the form of a credit card. The LL rep’s answer was: This would limit the amount of people that can enjoy SL and also exclude many people wishing to join SL from other countries that do not have credit cards.

So this tells me that LL is more interested in having broke people, and people that are in countries that don’t have credit cards, log in SL, than they are in providing the SL service they agreed to provide to the people that pay for the service.

The sad truth is that there are most likely 10-12 people out there spoiling the fun and profit for the rest of us. SL is the most expensive server subscription I have ever heard of that is available to the general public. LL has a server up time that is considered completely unacceptable in the real world for server service providers.

Would getting lawyers involved solve anything, I doubt it they would most likely wind up turning there focus toward LL for charging for a service and not providing it.

The best thing we can do if stay on LL hard and tell them just how angry we are, and that we are way past “frustrated” with there up time and lack of security.

In the last 60 days LL has had there user information database hacked. So some hacker has every ones personal information (we were required to change our passwords). LL has been in emergency patch mode rolling back a poorly tested version. SL has seen severe “down time” where they have lost potential new business and existing subscribers. Companies that conduct business like this seldom succeed for long with out major changes for the better.

It has been my experience that the “cool people” or “people in the know” walk away from such problems and find a new way to entertain them selves. What remains is a push by the service provider to gain new subscribers from “New Markets” also known as foreign markets. Then what is left for subscribers are the people that do not have real lives, and the “greifers” and “trouble makers”.

So I hope LL gets there shit together soon before the group of subscribers reaches this critical point and nothing is left but a bunch of fruit cakes, ass-hats and “happy people” playing on 56k modems that do not speak the language of the internet which we all know is English.

Good Luck Governor Linden I hope you succeed FAST!!!!.

I have said it before, I'll say it again. It IS NOT the free accounts that are the problem. Get it ? NOT FREE ACCOUNTS, per se.

It's the ability to have as many accounts per machine as you like. Period.

Some folks I have brought to SL are NPIOF players. They have shown more skill in the first days of "life" in SL than folks who've been playing for years. These NPIOF players will OWN this game soon enough just on the merits of their skills. One is already making and selling scripted boats and cars that work nicely.. better than some made by "names" here.

Now, a BETTER suggestion is, ONE FREE ACCOUNT per mavhine. All Alts must be paid for unless you can make a strong case to the Lindens for leniency (family, husband and wife, account lost in a Linden Server crash, etc..).

If all "free" NPIOF players go, so do I, the SIMs I paid for and the rents I pay for them. PERIOD.

If all "free" NPIOF players go, so do I, the SIMs I paid for and the rents I pay for them. PERIOD.[/QUOTE]


***

I am a free player.

Now I had two reasons for staying away earlier... dialup [although a friend is on SL
with dialup and does ok] and the fact that I had no credit card.

Although the cretins would stuff my letterbox with credit card spam, all the big names,
I couldn't get one because they said I didn't have enough dough in my bank...
which was rubbish.

It looks like Virgin have decided to let me in... so finally, in my 40th year of life,
I have a credit card.

It was only ten years ago that I got a car licence, I simply didn't need a car back then
so I never bothered.

For me to sign up to a video rental joint, meant I had to carry my birth certificate
with me as proof.

Now, On SL, My function is as an owner of a pub, Maker of T-Shirts and I do PR work
for our SIM and I help others on other SIMs... especially Supportforhealing where
possible.

Do I appear to be one of those losers then? Do I?
My Profile tells everyone that I *hate guns with a passion* and I do too.

Your suggestion that free users should be banned reeks of pure, unadulterated
snobbery... it's about as useful as dog poop on the sole of your shoe.

Grow up.

Wolfie!

How are you the owner of a pub, if you are a NPIOF?

That aside, please don't bash others lest this good, informative thread be locked.

This is a personal opinion, but I'd rather trade a few hundred good, productive NPIOF's, for stability, more control over griefing, and let the rest of the people, who we know are people, be able to play more than 40% of the stable uptime.

I know it's unfair, and it's probably classist. But a few NPOIF's have ruined it for the rest. If you look back, quite a few people were excited over removing the info (especially business owners), while some others straight up called it, awhile back, that this would lead to incredible exploitation and grid attacks. The excited ones are even bowing down, eating their own words and saying it in public, I was a supporter, but now I am not, because SL is down so much, nearly everyday for at LEAST 2 hours per day (or something is disabled in that time), and they want verification back.

Were there grid attacks before? Sure! But not on this scale. Every game, people exploit a bug, the difference was, they could at least track, most if not all, whereas now... there are tons of methods to bypass each and every single tracking method.

How are you the owner of a pub, if you are a NPIOF?

That aside, please don't bash others lest this good, informative thread be locked.

This is a personal opinion, but I'd rather trade a few hundred good, productive NPIOF's, for stability, more control over griefing, and let the rest of the people, who we know are people, be able to play more than 40% of the stable uptime.

I know it's unfair, and it's probably classist. But a few NPOIF's have ruined it for the rest. If you look back, quite a few people were excited over removing the info (especially business owners), while some others straight up called it, awhile back, that this would lead to incredible exploitation and grid attacks. The excited ones are even bowing down, eating their own words and saying it in public, I was a supporter, but now I am not, because SL is down so much, nearly everyday for at LEAST 2 hours per day (or something is disabled in that time), and they want verification back.

Were there grid attacks before? Sure! But not on this scale. Every game, people exploit a bug, the difference was, they could at least track, most if not all, whereas now... there are tons of methods to bypass each and every single tracking method.[/QUOTE]

ROFL.

If you want to sue someone because their actions stopped you earning Linden Dollars, causing you to lose out on real money, you must obviously accept that profit from Linden Dollars should be taxable, *nods*.

Jobs on LL are not real business's, you dont have the same rights as real business's, and if you want those same rights you have to declare yourself a legal business and get taxed.

If you would have bothered to read the posts here you would have found that those topics have been discussed and you probably would not have showed your ignorance by leaving this post. Do yourself a favor and go back and read the posts. You may learn something.

*sigh* Did you read the root for Wolfies post ? If a second account is desired, the person must supply all that "easily bypassed" verification info and some real, hard, cash.

For the first (and all subsequent) accounts, the SL client must perform a machine hash to verify the individuals machine, much as is done by most of the major software makers from makers of operating systems to makers of online MMORPGs. This info, along with the ISP info (you would also need an e-mail account), would be required

Yes, there are ways around this, but this would make it as much of a hassle as the useless "credit card verification" system that was in place before.

And you are ALL missing the point, as well, when you fail to stop and realize,.. the griefers you hear about were ALL VERIFIED ACCOUNT holders. They did not pop up because some 1337 HaXoR(s) decided to get an SL account just to harrass people. They were already in SL.

And many of the recent shut downs had nothing to do with griefers, mainly with misbehavior with people finding bugs in the permissions and ownership/creator info for "content" in SL.

The "Grey Goo" attacks have been a split of deliberate attacks and accidents cause by neophytes and even once, so rumor has it, an experiment by a Linden gone wrong.

All the other griefer attacks happen with folks who, right from day one of SL itself, think SL is just another "First Person Shooter" like EQ or WoW and have been, more often than not, "verified" account holders. None of this type of griefing has shut down SL and can be dealt with without banning "free" and NPIOF players from the grid.

Verifying an individual machine is technology and Linden Labs can handle that.

Dealing with the idiots who love to hassle others requires social proccesses, so lets have some better ideas than simply banning folks beacuse they don't have a credit card.

Wrong, for verification, you do not need to spend money. You can just put the information on file, without ever spending a dime. Secondly, as it stands now, you can create an account without so much as a valid email account. Thirdly, all the info to verify a person's machine can easily be bypassed by FREE programs out there. Therefore, as an unverified account, there is NO way to track a person with such tools. Verification however, even as a prepaid card, that card has information on when and where it was bought, etc. and if that card was used to cause detrimental actions, they can easily subpeona film and data to find out who purchased that card.



Wrong. Simply wrong. The last 4 major attacks were done by accounts created the same day with no verification. The recent shutdowns were caused by scripts that were created by non-verifieds that could change the information of items, and permissions. Once the flood gate was opened with this script, the immediate fix busted, which lead directly to more downtime. While the fix is Linden's fault, the initial reason is still a griefer.

I'm having a hard time believing that you could justify that there were this many attacks and downtimes BEFORE CCV went away. Sure, we had hackers, griefers, etc. but not on this scale. The grid was not down EVERYDAY. In fact, before floodgates opened, SL was up for several weeks at a time and LL was focusing on content (they still should be fixing old bugs), but now, everyday they must concentrate on plugging the floodgates.


*tin foil hat*



You are certainly stereotyping griefers without even having the facts correct. Verifying an individual machine is easily bypassed, and anyone that knows how to bring down a grid, is *most* of the time smart enough to use the tools to leave them untraceable.

Again, you are wrong in stating that the griefers have been PIOF's. I'm not even sure how you can rationalize a statement saying that the type of griefing hasn't brought down SL. Sure, you can leave the gates open for the rush of maybe 1000 legitimate people out there who are NPOIF's. However, they are losing a lot more people who are funneling money into SL due to the cause, course and state of affairs.

P.S. The replicating push boxes that could bypass push restrictions that went on for several days straight, were objects created by same day accounts that ended up all being banned. Eventually, it brought the grid down, but not before 12 hours of this stupid box running around in public and private sims.

Where to start.


You must be able to GET a credit card before you can use this as a verification tool. It is *not* as easy as it sounds.


This I agree with. I feel a user, free or not, should have to use a "key sent by e-mail" method.


It is a hassle to find such programs and, trust me, if the hash were used at every login and were written properly (*not* a hash based just on the MAC address), it would be hard for any program to do this at every login.. I write such code where I work and we check for that kind of tomfoolery.


Again, what kind of "prepaid" card ? I have a friend who has been turned down every time due to his being considered a low profit potential customer (read, reasons noyb, but not criminal) and he can't get one, despite having sufficient funds.


Duh. You have just reiterated, then ignored what I said. How do "instant accounts" do this without considerable knowledge of the inner workings of SL ? These people WERE ALREADY PIOF PLAYERS !!


I did not say that. There were as many "classic" griefers in the same proportions as then. More players equals more griefers in total, not by percentage.

So, we plug the floodgates and require a credit card. Next, their governments must adhere to federal regulations applied to US ISP firms in the US. Sure... and SL becomes a US only game.


What ? Remark is out of place.


And anyone who knows *HOW* to bring a SIM down this way IS A PIOF PLAYER using a free alt.

Get it ? **FREE ALT**

As I stated earlier, I am differentiating between the run of the mill griefer who goes into a club or a home and starts shooting all the other players, unloads particle poofers, etc (all of which are free.. for crying out loud, SOME ARE LINDEN SUPPLIED!) and those "griefers" who do these sorts of grid attacks with self replicators.


See previous. I defy you to find a newbie who is as skilled in SL and capable of creating the objects in question as a PIOF player using a *FREE* alt.

My suggestion is requiring an activation key sent to the listed e-mail address and requiring a payment for additional alt accounts (after a 7 day credit verification delay) to be sent to the same e-mail and using a properly written hash (you think M$ and Adobe are stupid ? They use these to *minimize* piracy, not eliminate it) would *BE AS GOOD*, if not better, than a credit card system.

After all, a black hat hacker can sell thousands of credit card numbers these griefers who could use them to create a thousand alts all on one day.

Come up with IDEAS, not critques ! If all you can do is insult my suggestions and not come up with alternative ideas to kicking out all free accounts, YOU are part of the problem and are not helping.

Finito! I will not reply any further unless it is a rational suggestion of how to resolve this.

PS: I own and pay the rent on whole SIMs here in SL and i am not the only SIM owner who feels this way, either.

I'm a little late for this thread, but I can comment on class action lawsuits, having been a representative in such cases in the past.

To be eligible for a class action, the class must meet some every strict prerequisites. Firstly, the common law interests of all class members must be identical in scope and award. This is a major hurdle in Second Life, because damages would vary greatly. Some would claim loss of revenue for attendance at casinos or clubs, while others would suffer losses as a result of lost sales.

Secondly, loss of opportunity would have to be something calculated on tangibility, ie would a lost sale for a particular outfit be irrepairable, or merely deferred to when the grid came back up? Substantiating claims in this manner is exceedingly difficult to quantify.

Lastly, class actions need to be represented by attorneys. Trial lawyers are exceedingly costly and very rarely take on breach of contract or non-personal injury claims pro bono or with contingent fee agreements. I am not aware of a single class action lawsuit, where the representative of the class was a lay person. Afterall a lay person is neither eligible, nor qualified by legal or bar standards to represent others in a court of law. Lay people can act as agents for plaintiffs or defendants, but only in a preliminary manner. "Power of Attorney" only applies where a person(s) are unable to attend the proceedings, whether by disability or other mitigating factors. Each and every individual must have documented proof of sales and suitable accounting practices. By this, not just some figures scribbled on paper off the top of your head, but by certified economists, accountants or financial managers, tax returns and receipts of all sales in the current fiscal year.

Disbursements in class actions suits are also expensive. Simply because one has a class, does not mean they go directly to trial. First there are a series of interrogatories, where questions are exchanged between parties and this is done through the law office, with paralegals, legal secretaries, notaries public among surmounting costs of tele-conferencing, photo copying, shipping and other costs. Then the proceedings move into the discovery phase, where either attorneys and litigants are able to review the evidence each party has against each other. Following that, is a motions phase, where either party can petition the court to allow/disallow contested issues for the trial phase. Then comes depositions, where each litigant must go before the other laywers, under oath and answer all questions, without the protection of a judge to rule whether something is out of order or not. Any deponent, refusing to answer a question, could give rise to a motion for dismissal.

Then of course, there are always subpeonas. Subpeonas are court ordered documents, which compel certain parties to divulge evidence which has relevancy to the claims. A motion to supeona duces tecum can be offset by a motion to quash subpeona, which is yet another phase to be considered. I've seen supeona issues go back and forth for months.

And then again, of course is the liability phase. This is where the parties make representation as to the degree of liability will heard at trial. For instance, limitation of liability can be ordered, where the defendant can prove, they had no privity or knowledge of the actions which caused them to be in the current situation, in the case of grid attack, LL would almost instantly petition for a limitaion of liability, because they had no prior knowledge of the attack or for what purpose. To add insult to injury, the class action would be dismissed, because the parties would not be eligible for the full extent of the claim, because of a limited fund. The judge may or may not allow claimants to return as individuals.

Once all that is out of the way, then the judge has the option of ordering a settlement phase or going to trial. The judge may order a Special Master to oversee the negotiations or he could simply sequster the two attorneys to hotel room and tell them not to return to the court until they reach a settlement, while that's unlikely, the only remaining course of action is the trial itself.

In a nutshell, class action lawsuits in Second Life, simply will unlikely ever happen, under any circumstances, unless LL themselves do something outwardly illegal in breaching their own Terms of Service, which would affect each and every resident equitably.

Claims based on grid attacks or other denial of service incidents, would have to fall before the responsible party. That could be any state, province or country in the world, so claimants would be obligated to file the writ, retain council and attend proceedings in that area of jurisdiction. That can get real expensive. Courts frown on frivolity and one way or another, someone has to pay for it and in doing so, either party must prove in advance, they are able to do so, in any event or outcome.

ETA: Pre-apologies for the novel. Sometimes excellent points require clarification!



Yes it is. Prepaid cards sold over the counter do not require background or credit checks, but upon use, do keep a coding in the database of where the card was purchased and for how much. As was discussed in another thread, there are a good 10 ways to get an anonymous credit card.



I'm glad you write a code, but obviously it hasn't taught you on the ease of getting such programs. I'm not going to put in details (I'm not giving away free info), but I can easily, confidantly, and knowingly say that it isn't single hash methods used.



I'm honestly not sure what country you are from, but I am going to address this as America and we can debate otherwise if you tell me different. Prepaid cards are offered over the counter at many retail stores, they are offered through banks, they are offered through credit unions, and they require no background check. SECURED credit cards DO require a check, however they are considered 'stored value' cards which about 99% of people can get, because it's a credit BUILDING card. You send them money and use it, but it reports to your credit as an extension of credit.



Actually, SL is fairly user friendly (mostly thanks to many resis, who provide awesome starting services). All any common person (and those that grief are usually garden variety), can easily figure out the details of how to maliciously script, or at least use the search function to find a place that would give them a quick lesson on implementation. They already know scripting and just need a tool. Considering the press that has come lately, any Tom, Dick or Jane can create an account based on what they heard and poof. I don't deny that some probably are PIOF's in disguise, however, they firstly wouldn't most of the time have the means to keep verifying accounts and would be limited, as opposed to the limitless ability to do this as it is. Also, again, as the press increases, most people can see it as an open playground that has high levels of anonymity.



That's illogical thinking. More ACTIVE players are on SL, however, the amount of inactive players is astounding. From a VERY detailed breakdown, we are only retaining 1% long term people (regardless of account status), so that in theory would mean only 1% increase in griefing according to your statement. However, these players that can repeatedly create accounts, also figures into the inflated figure. So technically, this means we can't even be sure that the 1% retain isn't alts, and we actually HAVEN'T grown that much.



Actually, wrong. Technically, each time you sign in, regardless of what country, you are signing off (ToS) to abide by the laws of US AND the country of residence. You are already held to the standards of the US government because they retain jurisdiction over all company quarters. And frankly, I'm not entirely sure what required a credit card for verification has to do with governments, that statement is rather, umm... discombobulated I guess is the only word I can think of...



No it's not. It's a common phrase to refer to conspiracies that have no backing of proof, just rumors and theories.



Again, you are making a mass assumption with no information or logical thinking in this. See the above comments about press, publicity, etc. since you are simply countering 2 separate points with the same statement.



I can name you one right now, me. I came onto the game, did the appropriate searches, was fully clothed within an hour, read the quick instructions on how to apply a prim hair and could have been mistaken for being here forever. Common sense told me how to IM, and chat, and use find. Using find, I was able to search the forums AND in game, which lead me to Ivory Tower to build and Chip Midnight's awesome information and poof, within 2-3 hours of creating an account, I had not only bought what I needed, but knew how to build within SL, having never been in a 'game' like this before. Most don't learn scripting from SL. They already know it and all the need to figure out is how to create a box and throw a script in it. They don't need to know anything else.

Using a few different search words leads to a few awesome places that tell you how to do a script in an object within minutes of logging on. Most who know how to do anything with scripting, would inherently know how to use a search function.



This system is a lot more flawed than a credit card/cell phone/pay pal system. Firstly, anyone can create a ton of email addresses til the cows come home with the programs I already spoke of leaving the sign up for these addresses untraceable. For each properly written 'hash', there is a bypass, and you'd be asking LL to CONSTANTLY update and work on this issue, everyday, because if something comes in place, someone can get around it. You think MS and Adobe are flawles? They continually need security teams to write and rewrite and rework for safety's sake. LL doesn't have that sort of resources to either fund a team themselves or pay for outsourcing.



Firstly, your average griefer, isn't gonna pay to play a few games in griefing. To keep buying over and over and over and over, could run them into the hundreds or thousands for a black market CC seller. Also, you had to put in several different things to verify that the number links to other data. While this may work in *some* stolen cases, it doesn't work with most of the generic numbers sold. Which means when you attempt to buy, you may or may not get a working number, adding that to the expense, just to bring down the grid for fun.



Firstly, I think CC verification was an excellent way to do it. Sure, there are some small workarounds that left a few attacks, it wasn't on this scale and at least if you had to come to grief, you had to pay out of pocket to do it. Secondly, YOU are part of the problem it seems, by spouting conspiracies, inaccuracies and stereotypes. The only thing you said constructive was a solution, which anyone who knows a thing about computers could know how to bypass within seconds.

Don't reply, because your posts are not making any sense and are restating the same issue over and over. While you can be ill informed on subjects you use as argument, it's not acceptable for others to point that out and have thier own issue? Why so vehemently defend it, if you are a sim owner? Are you happy that your sim is unusable more than 30% a week? I know MANY sim owners who aren't. I know many who've stuck theirs up for sale. I know many random creators, shop owners, and just happy go lucky players who are giving up their rented and owned land.

P.S. For my little p.s. - just because you are a SIM owner doesn't validate your opinion or make it any more important than anyone else's, so please don't throw it in someone's face as if it's important or imperitive in an argument. Everyone is as valued whether they own a sim, or a 512, or play to have fun without owning a slice of land.

*sigh*



Already broken my word.



Did not say that. Stop overanalyzing what you take from what I say. I am making the suggestion, nay, begging folks to find another path.

And, if you are so superior in knowledge, do write that novel and inform me. Be specific, show details. Provide references, links, data! (no, I do not want to know all those "secrets" you alluded to.. I know them all, too. Since the Darpanet was a Diapernet.. been online since 1971).



The tools I *need* to defend my SIM have been neutered by Linden Labs. For instance, "Disable Scripts" only prevents new scripts from running and does nothing to Avatar scripted objects if they were running before scripts are turned off. Also "no outside scripts" seems to be flaky as well. On a parcel with this set and a friend not a member of any associated group, his MultiGadget keeps whispering away with its inane messages.

Oops.. not a player at all.



Yes. I value all players who bring value to the game. PIOF or NPIOF. And what is the difference if SIM owners leave because of the griefers (who you seem to be tarring all NPIOF players as by implication) or because all the life has gone from the game and many of their friends are barred ? Loss of revenue to Linden Labs. Those of us who own SIMs have an unfair advantage.. we can vote with our checkbooks. My remark about being a SIM owner was meant only as a show of how angry I am at the idea of barring all NPIOF players without another method of letting them play. If you feel I "throw it in someone's face", take it as such. My friends (some 300 now, many of which are NPIOF) mean more to me than the opinions of others and the implication they are not welcome.

Look, do some research on how hard it is in other parts of the world to be a "verified" account holder, please ? Ask the Lindens to tell you the perentage of PIOF players in Europe, Africa and all points *outside* the US.

Also ask as many NPIOF players as you can their reason for not having an account. A good handful become PIOF players once they see how much fun SL is. Would not have done so if they could not "Try before Buy".

And you made a usable suggestion, using prepaid cards. But,..

Actually looked for these to send one to my sister for christmass. Would have been hideously expensive.. I live in the US. Only place I have ever seen them in is online. Need cold hard cash to get them and they're worse than a normal credit card that way. Never seen them in any store here on the east coast US.

Unless you mean prepaid phone cards ?

I will ask my friends in Australia, Chile, china and eleswhere about this.. most can't use paypal because their governments and their financial institutions are not open to this.

Any other usable suggestions ?

I'm not going to give links to bypass a system, I have more common sense than to provide the information in a general forum for some who may have an idea on how or what to do, but don't know where to get started. Years of being online doesn't negate the knowledge someone else has. I was born is 1983, but that certainly doesn't mean that because I'm young, means I can't be knowledgeable in the areas I have studied. In fact, some studies show that the older crowd (generally over 40) that have worked in IT and computer related fields are hindered because they don't go back to school to update on the other nuances of their field, and lose touch with quite a bit of current technology outside of their traditional realm.



I've never said LL was innocent. Hell, I hate half the way things work for parcel owners. But you misread what I said, I'll clarify, why so vehemently defend NPOIF's if there is a direct cause and link to the constraints happening, forcing the innocent owners to deal with downtime?




I've never stated all griefing was NPOIF's, nor was it none. *You* made the absolute that it was alts of POIF's, which is incorrect. I said, I might agree that some are POIF's alts, but also that they wouldn't have the means to do account after account for POIF, as opposed to the endless creation of NPOIF's. However, you are completely making another blanket assumption. The difference of land owners leaving is a BIG one, when you consider that their money is the life and death of LL. They are leaving over the mass griefing. Many were thrilled at the idea of letting people come in and have more opportunities. Some called it before that the grid would be attacked more often and weren't so happy. I will admit, I am the latter. I said that due to creation upon creation of NPOIF accounts and the way limitations on bans work, that it would end up like this, with the grid down more often than not. Many have said 'Hey, I wanted the extra life, but not at this cost'. As I've said hundreds of times, there are some really great, nice, decent NPOIF's out there. Many I have as friends. But it's a question of risk versus rewards. I'd rather lose NPOIF's for grid stability (well, on user behalf) to return. Technically, they aren't filtering ANY money through LL, whether by sale or buy of anything of LL's, so they aren't supporting them economywise.

All it takes is for a group of idiots to ruin the collective masses. Not everyone wants to steal from a store, but because *some* did, it carries punishment. For a long time, decent hardworking Germans were blacklisted because of what happened, and some still are, even though they had nothing to do with anything. It isn't their fault, and they had no participation, but as I said, some ruin it for all.



I have done the research, as shown in other threads, there are mulitple ways to get verified. There are TONS of suggestions, if you read through the MANY other threads about allowing a 14 day trial period, where an NPOIF can go where they please but not script, but at the end, require registration and verification.



No, I mean preloaded Visa (Or Mastercard, etc.) gift cards that act as debit cards. They are available from Wal-Mart, Target, or as I said a plethura of retail stores. In fact, my local grocery store sells them. They are available online, some with only minor fees such as $10 to set them up and ship them to wherever you wish, but if you load it up with $100, you can set it up to draw all the money into SL and pay for a yearly sub and have money left over to play with. Or you can simply, to get verified, load it with 20 bucks, enter the information and use it that way.

If you can't afford a few bucks worth to get verified, you probably shouldn't be here anyways. There are lots of arguments stating that the people can't get prepaid cards because they can't afford it, and IMO, that's ludicris. They pay for internet, and a computer, then claim they can't buy a prepaid card cause they don't know where next month's rent is coming from. Hell, even 1 person made a statement, that they could be on foodstamps, need food and not able to pay. If you are draining money from your government to live, then the luxuries provided by the internet and gaming shouldn't be available. Classist, maybe. But I call it a realist.



Actually, paypal has different sites that are set up for different countries and a different ToS for each of them to abide by local government regulations. When you go to paypal.com, that is US, however there are links to follow for other countries. Such as paypal.nau for Austrailia, paypal.ch for Switzerland, etc. In fact, paypal boasts being able to do business is 103 countries. And each that you listed is on there. The friends from other countries I have, have either used paypal, prepaid credit cards, or gift debit cards. Most coming from paypal.

It's not a matter of can't get verified, it's a matter of laziness at looking for options to get verified.