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Exiled from N'burg Indefinitely

Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 11:05
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
We could have the trial in person at SLCC 2006! :)
If you could manage to provide me with a randomly selected jury of peers, I would be grateful and happily show up. Fair trials and accountability are quite hard to come by in N'burg lately. :D

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 11:06
From: Kevn Klein
BTW, I think you did a great job in N'burg.
I know. I'm a goddamned genius. ;)

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
04-26-2006 11:10
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I know. I'm a goddamned genius. ;)

~Ulrika~

And humble too! ;)
Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
04-26-2006 11:12
From: Jonas Pierterson
OK L) See how it can be an insult to those who aren't in the know, though?

Not me personally (I'm usually thick skinned) but many.


Wait, Jonas, you are saying Ulrika deserves being exiled for insulting people? umm...what's wrong with this picture?
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Events are everyone's business.
vivi Odets
Flibbertigibbet
Join date: 4 Sep 2005
Posts: 698
04-26-2006 11:39
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
It matters that the city's first trial was illegal, in that it violated the constitution by denying the accused a jury, it was inconsistent in that jurisdiction was interpreted inconsistently, and that the punishment was cruel and unusual. It's a frightening precedence for the only user-run government in SL to set.

~Ulrika~


I just can't help but laugh and sigh about all of this. It's all a big silly game. In a world where there are all sorts of authentic instances of cruel and unusual punishment: torture, abuse, suffering... you are stomping your feet by feeling mistreated by the pretend government of a pretend country in a computer generated environment -- that, by the way, you abandoned.

Perhaps you should stick to your guns and leave that door to SL closed, permanently, and focus on those things you deemed important: your family, your real life community. There are vital issues and injustices in the real world that you could be focusing your obvious passions on -- a whole lot of them right in your San Francisco backyard.
Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
04-26-2006 12:20
From: vivi Odets
I just can't help but laugh and sigh about all of this. It's all a big silly game. In a world where there are all sorts of authentic instances of cruel and unusual punishment: torture, abuse, suffering... you are stomping your feet by feeling mistreated by the pretend government of a pretend country in a computer generated environment -- that, by the way, you abandoned.

Perhaps you should stick to your guns and leave that door to SL closed, permanently, and focus on those things you deemed important: your family, your real life community. There are vital issues and injustices in the real world that you could be focusing your obvious passions on -- a whole lot of them right in your San Francisco backyard.


The need to create political drama in sl may be generated from a feeling of inability to effectively shape rl politics to one's liking.
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Events are everyone's business.
Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
04-26-2006 12:21
From: FlipperPA Peregrine
We could have the trial in person at SLCC 2006! :)

That I could get into. Live theatre! woot! :-)
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Events are everyone's business.
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
04-26-2006 12:26
I hereby announce my availability for jury service, should such a service be required.

Rumours that I can be bought will be confirmed/denied upon payment of a sizable fee.
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
04-26-2006 12:43
I just served on a jury in which the defendant was sentenced to 15 years. I volunteer to be a juror. :)
Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
04-26-2006 12:48
Is it just me - or do N'Burgers (current and ex) take themselves just a wee bit too seriously?
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
04-26-2006 13:04
From: Doc Nielsen
Is it just me - or do N'Burgers (current and ex) take themselves just a wee bit too seriously?

It's a figment of your imagination. :)
Pelanor Eldrich
Let's make a deal...
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 267
04-26-2006 13:07
From: Doc Nielsen
Is it just me - or do N'Burgers (current and ex) take themselves just a wee bit too seriously?


This whole debate is making me hungry, I'd like a neualtenburger with cheese, hold the mayo (in comtempt). :)
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
04-26-2006 13:09
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
  1. If it was just a fact-finding hearing (as I thought it was), why was a judgement passed ...
That should have read "fact-finding/hearing." My apologies for the error in typing. :)
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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
04-26-2006 13:17
ulrika,

I TOLD YOU SO!

:)
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read my blog

Mecha
Jauani Wu
hero of justice
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"Oh Jauani, you're terrible." - khamon fate


Picabo Hedges
Second Life Resident
Join date: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 262
04-26-2006 13:30
Just another in the continuing historical (or should that be hysterical) saga of trollish behavior surrounding this entire project... The best part of this is the person who essentially took credit multiple times for major responsibilities of authorship of the Constitution, then tried to deny its validity, is now having great fun stirring the ****pot with linguistic games --- all after having basically said, "I'm leaving."

Dang, the popcorn's not only gone stale, the drahma meter isn't even registering any more. It's built up an immunity where N'burg and certain people are concerned.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 14:50
From: Dianne Mechanique
That should have read "fact-finding/hearing." My apologies for the error in typing. :)
I understand your typo but you avoided the question posed by several people. If the "meeting" was not a trial but a fact-finding get-together or hearing, why did a conviction come out of it? Convictions come from trials.

~Ulrika~
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
04-26-2006 14:53
While I agree with Diderot that it really is useless to argue all this stuff on the forums after the hearing has taken place, this statement below (which has been made a few times now) stands out as a particularly awfull accusation that deserves a response if only for public record.

It is also easily proven false. :)
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
... To me it seems quite obvious that a kangaroo court was convened with the goal of prevent me from seeking citizenship in the immediate future....
To my knowledge, *I* am the one that thought up the idea of banning you from citizenship in Neualtenburg. I can't speak for what is in anyone else's head of course, but I never discussed this with any members of the Scientific Council before the hearing nor did I ever hear the idea come from anyone else.

The idea occurred to me *during* the hearing (somewhere around the two hour mark of the second hearing I think) and was really "right of the top of my head" as the saying goes. It occured to me that you had mentioned coming back to Nburg quite recently and the idea of you running for office again in Neualtenburg and perhaps scaring off even more prospective members was worrying to me.

The relevant passage from the transcript (spellng corrected) follows:

From: Hearing Meeting Transcript (2006/04/20), Part 5/5
Dianne Mechanique: I know I should not be thinking of the sanction
Dianne Mechanique: before the decision of what laws were broken
Dianne Mechanique: but my first thought is that she has flaunted our authority
Dianne Mechanique: and has no respect for the institutions of Neualtenburg,
Dianne Mechanique: so anything we could do to prevent such a person
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually... there is really just one sanction that N'burg can apply anyway to non-citizens: suspension of access, which can be temporary or permanent.
Dianne Mechanique: from becomeing a citizen
Dianne Mechanique: or at least a member of the government
Dianne Mechanique: would be a sanction I would consider
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Aliasi Stonebender: Gwyn is correct. Our only sanction is the only sanction ALL sim owners in SL have.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, that is also a possible sanction, I never thought of that!
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, that too, I suppose.
Dianne Mechanique: I mean I would hate to see us let this peson off
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good thinking, Dianne :)
Dianne Mechanique: and then have her join the govenment again later
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Patch's Funky Chat Logger - for Gwyn: Chat log reel 1 full. Sending email, starting reel 2
Dianne Mechanique: having shown such disprespect for its institutions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
You'll have to take my word on it that I thought it up on the spur of the moment, but you can see quite clearly that I am actually saying this at the exact same time that two other members of the Council are stating their belief that there is only one possible sanction, that of banning you from the sim. This is a clear snapshot of a moment in time taken by the chat-logger that indicates that at the same time I am suggesting this course, it has not occurred to two of the other members present.

To me this is a clear indication that:

- nobody thought this up ahead of time
- it was a considered judgement
- the judgement was *not* made previous to the hearing commencing

I for one am personally offended that after spending the amount of time on this subject that we have and considering all aspects of the situation that you see fit to dismiss it all under the moniker of a "kangaroo court." It's a cheap accusation founded on nothing at all.

The citizenship ban was undertaken as a "lesser" punishment than an outright sim-ban since although we all agreed that your actions were deserving of some kind of sanction, all other alternatives seemed a bit "over the top."

I would respectfully ask that you cease in the spreading of this unfounded accusation given that the evidence indicates that your version of events is not what actually happened.
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art furniture & classic clothing
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 15:07
From: Picabo Hedges
The best part of this is the person who essentially took credit multiple times for major responsibilities of authorship of the Constitution, then tried to deny its validity, is now having great fun ...
I assure you I have not denied the validity of the Constitution in any way. In fact, the conerstone of my argument is that the constitution has been violated by the judicial branch. It specifically requires trials to be in front of a judge with a jury of peers present. However, the "fact-finding hearing" instead became a trial without jury, culminating in a conviction and an extreme sentence with an indefinite ban.

Even worse is, that those who are in charge of the judicial branch are redefining the the trial as a "meeting" to get around the statement in the constitution that a "trial" must have a jury. It's euphamistic labeling meant to subvert the true intent of the constitution. For citizens, this issue determines whether or not they have a legal system that will abide by its own rules and for the greater SL it determines whether outsiders will participate in N'burg's incorporation project.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 15:12
From: Dianne Mechanique
I for one am personally offended that after spending the amount of time on this subject that we have and considering all aspects of the situation that you see fit to dismiss it all under the moniker of a "kangaroo court." It's a cheap accusation founded on nothing at all.
Offending your sensibilities is irrelevant. What's relevant is that the constitution is followed by all citizens, especially the judicial branch. You held a trial without a jury of peers illegally and passed a conviction with an indefinite sentence. This is an abortion of justice and your failure to recognize it was a trial in this very thread and your failure to call for an annulment is testimony to your complicity.

That's nifty you thought up the permaban. Let's see what punishment you can think up for the Dean of the SC for holding a trial without jury.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
04-26-2006 15:31
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I understand your typo but you avoided the question posed by several people. If the "meeting" was not a trial but a fact-finding get-together or hearing, why did a conviction come out of it? Convictions come from trials.

~Ulrika~
I don't think I will bother commenting on this stuff anymore.
It's boring and counter-productive.

I could think of several pages of arguments in response to things you have already posted (in fact I made a few such posts and then deleted them before sending them off), but I limited myself to a few important points that I did not want to let pass without comment. As far as I am concerned its "done and done."

As far as avoiding questions or talking about points that one has been "beaten" on debate-wise, I believe your performance far outpaces my own in that regard.

I bow to the master. :)

In summation, the facts are all out there for anyone to look at and several people have posted that they find all this drama kind of a waste of time now so I think I will also stop commenting. The last word is yours.
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black
art furniture & classic clothing
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Black in Neufreistadt
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Solar Shirakawa
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 27
04-26-2006 15:51
The forums are full of drama but it takes Neualtenburg to bring us institutionalized drama.
good entertainment
/me claps
Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
04-26-2006 16:00
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
for the greater SL it determines whether outsiders will participate in N'burg's incorporation project.



These threads have done a fine job at that. ;)
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
04-26-2006 16:01
From: Solar Shirakawa
The forums are full of drama but it takes Neualtenburg to bring us institutionalized drama.
good entertainment
/me claps


Agreed.

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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-26-2006 16:45
From: Dianne Mechanique
The last word is yours.
You never did state how a "meeting" is not a trial even though it returns a conviction and sentence. Several people have asked this.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
04-26-2006 16:47
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
You never did state how a "meeting" is not a trial even though it returns a conviction and sentence. Several people have asked this.

~Ulrika~


an indictment for a trial by jury should have been handed down. not a sentence.
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